Do you think Thameslink has failed? And what can be done to fix it

[Robertj21a]

Longer term employees are usually afforded a degree of latitude in many areas - short term contract and temps, agency staff etc are not. However much a manager may sympathise (or even empathise if they are making a similar journey) the bottom line is you want people who can turn up for work day in day out on time. Do you honestly believe there are not thousands out there whose earning potential and future prospects have not been adversely affected by this? if you get out more am sure you will be able to find plenty of people who have lost out quite substantially - anything from having to book leave for the missing days to losing out on renewal of their short term contracts. There are plenty of people out there who have lost out to some degree if you look for them.

I didn't refer to earnings potential, booking leave or future prospects etc etc.
I referred to the earlier post about people losing their jobs. Of course there will always be some (probably an employer happy to find an excuse) but it would have to be a poor employer to sack staff who had made every reasonable effort - which is all I said.

 

[morgainelive]

Since Great Northern Peterborough to KXC became part of Thameslink its been a total disaster the service was at least running under GN albeit with delays but now its cancelled trains all over and its much more inconvenient getting down to the Thameslink platform its now further to walk! The staff I find I don't look out for those passengers who really need help such as disabled ppl like myself on crutches etc. I find there's too many gateline staff and not enough front line moving around staff to ensure people are catered for and are looked after it generally has been a mess and I knew Peterborough line would suffer with the new timetable. At least going into KXC tge service can run reliably. The first Sunday I was told on crutches nah you'll havre to wait 2 hours nothings happening I was shocked at their attitudes at Finsbury Park it was not much better at St Pancras where I was sent back over to KXC the one lady who was able to help said it was rubbish and chaos and was embarrassed to tell me to go over to KXC having messed around already absolute shambles!! I can't see the situation improving either but I have several delay vouchers so time for me to start using east coast now at least I might get there

 

[stut]

I referred to the earlier post about people losing their jobs. Of course there will always be some (probably an employer happy to find an excuse) but it would have to be a poor employer to sack staff who had made every reasonable effort - which is all I said.

If your frame of reference is a 9-5 office job on a perm contract then you're probably right.

But if you're a contractor, you'll have something like a week's notice and a renewal every 6 months or so. The employer is getting you in because they have an acute gap to fill and you're paid by the day. They can't really afford anything like the same degree of flexibility. And when renewal time comes round, reliability will be a key factor.

And that's at the upper end. What do you think those on zero hours contracts will experience?

Let's say you work in retail. Maybe healthcare. You absolutely can't be late, can you? And remember, it's not just London, there are hundreds of thousands of local journeys where the alternative isn't there because train has always been the obvious way of getting there.

From my part, my job is secure (and I can get there by bus or hire a car). But I am currently looking for a new job. But 90% of jobs in my field are in London. And I couldn't even guarantee making it to an interview at the moment.

But the most emotional part? When I have to visit the London office, or go to a conference, at the moment, that means I don't get to see my son that day. Now, I'm lucky in that I can usually avoid going. But if I were prevented from seeing my son every weekday for the foreseeable future? That would send me over the edge.

 

[cjmillsnun]

It's called Railplan 2020, isn't it..?

The original project was Thameslink 2000. So don't hold out too much hope for 2020!

 

[physics34]

What celebrity voices were used?

I still cant remember that guys name but one was the canandian bloke who used to present some saturday evening bbc1 programmes 5 years ago

 

[Steve Harris]

The Thameslink brand doesn't make sense for trains that don't cross the Thames, so in theory the same thought should apply for services terminating at Kings Cross, but I think the plan there was that eventually none would?

The plan for the Kings Cross terminators was/is to run them under the GN (Great Northern) franchise/brand.

I also believe there was always going to be a small number of Kings Cross services anyway. But with the shambles we have, who can tell what will happen.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The plan for the Kings Cross terminators was/is to run them under the GN (Great Northern) franchise/brand.

I also believe there was always going to be a small number of Kings Cross services anyway. But with the shambles we have, who can tell what will happen.

All services that will go through the Core are operated as TL, the rest are as GN.

 

[mmh]

All services that will go through the Core are operated as TL, the rest are as GN.

But, even it worked perfectly, it would be nonsense to a passenger. If I get on a train that says Thameslink on the side, from any location, I think it's reasonable to assume it's going to go to City, err, Thameslink.

 

[Agent_Squash]

But, even it worked perfectly, it would be nonsense to a passenger. If I get on a train that says Thameslink on the side, from any location, I think it's reasonable to assume it's going to go to City, err, Thameslink.

The logic they’re using often doesn’t make sense, but that’s the GTR way...

 

[jopsuk]

Put it all in a idiotically long tunnel, 100% separate from other services. Including four track tunnels to allow for passing. Simple. Hilariously expensive. Absolutely impractical. Weatherproof.

 

[Steve Harris]

All services that will go through the Core are operated as TL, the rest are as GN.

I answered mmh's question, which was about thameslink trains going into Kings Cross.

I and no doubt him/her know that Thameslink trains go through the core so i doubt if my post needed repeating.

 

[c52]

Any project finishes with a tedious "Lessons Learned" meeting. These lessons are then forgotten as the team disbands and goes and works elsewhere.

The lesson to be learned from Thameslink is "Trains need drivers."

My own view is that when there are enough drivers, TL will work reasonably well, but it will become clear that the junction just south of Blackfriars should have been grade-separated, and the northbound track at Blackfriars, and the southbound track at St Pancras, should have had two platforms each.

 

[bramling]

All services that will go through the Core are operated as TL, the rest are as GN.

I seem to remember the early and late 700 services in and out of KX are branded as ShamblesLink/ too. These appear to be permanent.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

There's a story in the Mail that drivers are having to be changed at Finsbury Park as not all drivers have been cleared to operate through the Thameslink core. I thought they had some new wonder signal system that was almost automatic.

 

[Jack Wicket]

The reason Thames link has failed is because it is owned by Govia, they are not a great train operating company. They should've gave the franchise to someone else, even FCC was better then them. Southeastern would've been a great choice really.

 

[bcarmicle]

The reason Thames link has failed is because it is owned by Govia, they are not a great train operating company. They should've gave the franchise to someone else, even FCC was better then them. Southeastern would've been a great choice really.

... You realise Southeastern are also owned by Govia, right?

 

[bramling]

The reason Thames link has failed is because it is owned by Govia, they are not a great train operating company. They should've gave the franchise to someone else, even FCC was better then them. Southeastern would've been a great choice really.

Govia weren’t particularly well regarded when they ran Thameslink first time round.

It’s a pity the “London Lines” national Express team from the mid-2000s couldn’t have had a go. Based on how they did a good job running their various franchises at the time, I think they might have given it a good shot.

GN went downhill pretty much as soon as GTR took over.

 

[Robertj21a]

The reason Thames link has failed is because it is owned by Govia, they are not a great train operating company. They should've gave the franchise to someone else, even FCC was better then them. Southeastern would've been a great choice really.

Eh ????

 

[jon0844]

There's a story in the Mail that drivers are having to be changed at Finsbury Park as not all drivers have been cleared to operate through the Thameslink core. I thought they had some new wonder signal system that was almost automatic.

The Mail hasn't said anything not already talked about here for some time. Plus a driver still needs to be able to use manual control at anytime so ATO doesn't solve the issue.

 

[London Trains]

The reason Thames link has failed is because it is owned by Govia, they are not a great train operating company. They should've gave the franchise to someone else, even FCC was better then them. Southeastern would've been a great choice really.

Err, What? Southeastern is operated by Govia as well! I agree FCC was better though.

 

[Hadders]

Govia weren’t particularly well regarded when they ran Thameslink first time round.

It’s a pity the “London Lines” national Express team from the mid-2000s couldn’t have had a go. Based on how they did a good job running their various franchises at the time, I think they might have given it a good shot.

GN went downhill pretty much as soon as GTR took over.

WAGN were the best of the privatised operators of Great Northern. It was very rare to be delayed.

FCC were ok operationally but spoilt their tenure with the introduction of evening peak restrictions and the over zealous attitude of their RPIs.

The less said about Govia the better. It's been problematic from day one of the franchise (which has been running for almost 4 years now).

 

[Jack Wicket]

Err, What? Southeastern is operated by Govia as well! I agree FCC was better though.

Isn't southeastern owned by Go Ahead?

 

[Abpj17]

Go-Ahead is the majority owner of Govia that ultimately operates GTR and Southeastern.

 

[Hadders]

Isn't southeastern owned by Go Ahead?

https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/

Southeastern is the trading name of London & South Eastern Railway Limited. Registered in England under number 04860660. Registered office: 3rd Floor, 41-51 Grey Street, Newcastle-upon-Tyne NE1 6EE. London & South Eastern Railway Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of Govia Ltd.

https://www.govia.info/

Govia is a joint venture between the Go-Ahead Group(65%) and Keolis (35%),

 

[Jack Wicket]

Really, they should just make it be owned by the government, therefore situations will be soughted.

 

[yorkie]

Isn't southeastern owned by Go Ahead?

You are confused.

This is all readily available online, please do check before posting.

https://www.govia.info/

Govia is a joint venture between the Go-Ahead Group (65%) and Keolis (35%),

Govia runs two train operating companies: Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) and Southeastern Railway.

 

[yorkie]

Really, they should just make it be owned by the government, therefore situations will be soughted.

This post does not make sense, but is on a whole different topic (which has been discussed before)

 

[bramling]

WAGN were the best of the privatised operators of Great Northern. It was very rare to be delayed.

FCC were ok operationally but spoilt their tenure with the introduction of evening peak restrictions and the over zealous attitude of their RPIs.

The less said about Govia the better. It's been problematic from day one of the franchise (which has been running for almost 4 years now).

I found WAGN mixed. Under Prism reliability was poor at times, and there was a massive aversion to putting out more than 4-car trains at off-peak times. On the plus side the 313 and 317 refurbishments were superb - though it was a shame only 24 317s were done. Prism did leave GN in a state, and National express did do a superb job turning it round, a big driver recruitment campaign and a push for reliability- both of which bore fruit in that at one point in the late 2000s one could virtually set your watch by the service.

Personally I didn’t have any objection to the peak restriction, although it did crowd out a few trains especially 1900 to 1930. Operationally I’d agree FCC were almost as good as National Express, although slightly less attention to detail. The “seats for you “ timetable changes were well implemented, and they continued to lengthen many off-peak services which was most welcome.

All the good work now flushed down the proverbial toilet thanks to DFT, Thameslink Programme and GTR.

 

[js1000]

Before any assumes this let me just say that I’m not bashing Thameslink, this is just a genuine question.

But it does seem that the majority of people who live on the newly expanded Thameslink network aren’t happy and have valid complaints, people have seen journey times slowed down or downgraded, some stations haven’t even had a train stop there since the changeover began (see Higham)

The thing I found strange about Thameslink in particular is that it had not real finalised destination, at least South of Thames until 2016 at least, unlike Crossrail which had its routes finalised years before construction began (bar the late in the day Reading extension which makes sense)

Is Thameslink being overly ambitious about running 24tph in the peaks

Sadly, from my personal experience many of the same complaints can be said on the Northern network as well. I honestly think DfT should have no role in specifying TSR routes.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Sadly, from my personal experience many of the same complaints can be said on the Northern network as well. I honestly think DfT should have no role in specifying TSR routes.

I agree, but I think there was a panic about “where to send the trains south of the river” after the Windmill Junction issue, which now, come to think of it, the Windmill Junction panic was probably a sign of how things would be ran by Thameslink.....