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The decline of GWR...

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jayah

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The acceleration on the 345s will mean that they should be able to make the journey quicker while serving more stops . the agreement with freight operators is that no crossrail service will be timetabled take longer than 18 minutes to travel between hayes & Harlington and London Paddington when the full service launches. To implement this agreement they will still skip some stops between these two stations
The slowest run to Paddington from Maidenhead currently takes around 45 minutes. With Crossrail likely to be even more of an all stations service than the current one, I don't see Maidenhead to Liverpool Street in 45 minutes unless the stops are only Slough, West Drayton, Hayes and Ealing. Does the current timetable have slack if it's still scheduled for 165s rather than 345s or 387s?

I think for Maidenhead and Twyford passengers it's going to depend on what sort of service GWR operates into what we may have to think of as Paddington high level. There will be eastbound Crossrail trains starting at Paddington, so taking the first train even if GWR is likely to be quicker than waiting for the next Crossrail. That's going to depend a bit on the routes through Paddington. Passengers using Platform 14 would have to cross the whole station, not that changing to the H&C/Circle is any easier. Against that, even if the Crossrail service calls at every station including Hanwell and Acton, it's not going to be possible for a faster GWR service to overtake it. If it was, you might change at Ealing to Crossrail.
The online journey time calculator seems to round to 5mins in the provinces. With Paddington Liverpool St at 10min that leave the rest at 35 plus a dwell at Paddington.

To Paddington, Reading is 50 then 45/35. Currently Maidenhead is around 42 and Reading 57. If these EMUs are really faster than Turbos they will make it just over 45 if not they will habitually run late.

Based on how the 387s perform today there seems to be plenty of time to spare, so around 47 Maidenhead to Liverpool St looks good, providing the bit in the tunnel works.
 
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jimm

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As i have explained at length, these peaks that you call bubbles drive most UK rail investment along with trifling increases in long distance speeds that are only beneficial to business travellers with a perceived high value of time.

I really don't care about off peak capacity as long as it is at least enough to carry the numbers. On the other hand, you see this into a major issue even though excess capacity off peak is already a common feature.

You have also been kind enough to point out the need for extra capacity west of Reading / Didcot which can only be delivered by more paths (that don't exist) or higher capacity trains. According to one eyewitness report, 2x5 IET are already full and standing west of Reading?

None of this doubling up of 1x5 IET can be achieved without lots of extra ECS moves in/out an already very congested terminus.

We know you don't care about anything other then the needs of Reading commuters for a few hours on weekdays - but the people planning and running the railways have to think about lots of other things too. And have had the temerity to ignore you and plan for those as well.

I pointed out there are some trains west of the centre of the universe that are also busy, because you seemed to be unaware of that and came out with nonsense about localised commuting around Bristol.

Judging by your comments above, you don't appear to know there will be 3tph in the peaks to and from Bristol and South Wales and ignore the basic point that nine-car and 2x5 IETs will provide extra seats on all other peak main line services - in what way is that not extra capacity compared with what HSTs provided?

Perhaps try looking at all the ecs moves that there are in and out of Paddington right now, and have been for years, before once again coming out with another of your favoured blanket, sweeping statements. Why would there be a need for extra ones? Many of the moves that happen at the moment are 387s to and from stabling sidings before and after the peaks, being used on services that will be replaced by Crossrail, so will disappear. And empty HST moves between the station and Old Oak Common depot are steadily being replaced by IET moves to and from North Pole depot. And 2x5s can also be formed by two single five-car sets arriving in passenger service from different places and being joined in the station.

And if big trains are the answer to everything, why were the 387s not ordered as 12-car fixed formations? Just think how many more seats could be fitted in without all those cabs in the middle of the formations. Oh, I forgot, travelling on mere emus is beneath Reading commuters, so the 387s don't matter...
 

matt_world2004

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And if big trains are the answer to everything, why were the 387s not ordered as 12-car fixed formations? Just think how many more seats could be fitted in without all those cabs in the middle of the formations. Oh, I forgot, travelling on mere emus is beneath Reading commuters, so the 387s don't matter...

I presume one reason why this has not happened is because the intention is to provide 2tph to Hayes & Harlington and Ealling Broadway these platforms are not going to take much more than 9 cars.
 

jayah

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We know you don't care about anything other then the needs of Reading commuters for a few hours on weekdays - but the people planning and running the railways have to think about lots of other things too. And have had the temerity to ignore you and plan for those as well.

I pointed out there are some trains west of the centre of the universe that are also busy, because you seemed to be unaware of that and came out with nonsense about localised commuting around Bristol.

Judging by your comments above, you don't appear to know there will be 3tph in the peaks to and from Bristol and South Wales and ignore the basic point that nine-car and 2x5 IETs will provide extra seats on all other peak main line services - in what way is that not extra capacity compared with what HSTs provided?

Perhaps try looking at all the ecs moves that there are in and out of Paddington right now, and have been for years, before once again coming out with another of your favoured blanket, sweeping statements. Why would there be a need for extra ones? Many of the moves that happen at the moment are 387s to and from stabling sidings before and after the peaks, being used on services that will be replaced by Crossrail, so will disappear. And empty HST moves between the station and Old Oak Common depot are steadily being replaced by IET moves to and from North Pole depot. And 2x5s can also be formed by two single five-car sets arriving in passenger service from different places and being joined in the station.

And if big trains are the answer to everything, why were the 387s not ordered as 12-car fixed formations? Just think how many more seats could be fitted in without all those cabs in the middle of the formations. Oh, I forgot, travelling on mere emus is beneath Reading commuters, so the 387s don't matter...
This is about real life. It has already been said that Reading only works if the London commuters use 345s (not 387s) that will take twice as long to reach London - so who is proposing to stop them using the expresses? They will pile on exactly as they do today and the promises of more seats will look hollow.

You say there will be more services at Paddington in the peaks. Therefore the number of ecs moves today isn't relevant, you will be piling more and more trains, empty or not, into an already very congested station.

There have been a number of messages this week about terrible peak crowding on the flows between Bristol and Chippenham which you seem to be calling nonsense? As it is neither a peak London flow nor on the route via Bristol Parkway it is far from clear if it will see any extra trains going towards London in the evenings.
 

jayah

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I presume one reason why this has not happened is because the intention is to provide 2tph to Hayes & Harlington and Ealling Broadway these platforms are not going to take much more than 9 cars.
There was also a post that said the SL through Goring were a maximum 8 cars for the stopping trains. 12 cars simply isn't an option for a the majority of those services.
 

jimm

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Your posts seem to be taking on an ever more surreal aspect.

Clarence Yard said clearly that the expectation was that Reading passengers would be using IETs, 387s and 345s - ie all the kinds of trains that will be operating there. No one has said anything here about stopping Reading passengers using the expresses - though that has been floated often enough in other threads on this forum.

I do not believe that to be a realistic or common sense approach - because all the services from Reading are going to be needed to shift people - any more than I believe that designing the GWR long-distance train fleet around the Reading-London commute is sensible either.

But that does not make it some kind of human right for Reading passengers to be guaranteed a seat on an IET for a 20-minute commute.

And yet again you try to worm your way out of something you said previously.

None of this doubling up of 1x5 IET can be achieved without lots of extra ECS moves in/out an already very congested terminus.

The bit about extra moves was the claim I was addressing. Is it so hard to grasp that Crossrail will remove the need for lots of the current moves of empty 387s - and that HSTs also make empty stock moves in and out of Paddington around the peak periods? So there is unlikely to be any need for extra ecs moves in future.

Or even that Crossrail will remove lots of existing services from Paddington, as they will be in a tunnel underneath instead? As opposed to

you will be piling more and more trains, empty or not, into an already very congested station.

And we have somehow gone from a scenario where I had to correct you over your absurd claim that long-distance GWR trains are not busy beyond Didcot to one where you are now claiming there are apocalyptic scenes of overcrowding taking place further west.

I was being ever so slightly tongue-in-cheek about all 387s being fixed 12-car formations... because that would make about as much sense as having an all 1x10-car IET fleet.
 

jayah

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Your posts seem to be taking on an ever more surreal aspect.

Clarence Yard said clearly that the expectation was that Reading passengers would be using IETs, 387s and 345s - ie all the kinds of trains that will be operating there. No one has said anything here about stopping Reading passengers using the expresses - though that has been floated often enough in other threads on this forum.

Just to refresh your memory about what was actually said:

The 387 units will peak bust to a certain extent but some Reading punters will have to go 345 on the reliefs.

And we have somehow gone from a scenario where I had to correct you over your absurd claim that long-distance GWR trains are not busy beyond Didcot to one where you are now claiming there are apocalyptic scenes of overcrowding taking place further west.

I have never claimed long distance services are not busy beyond Didcot. They certainly are at many points in the off peak. I did not realise peak services are apparently full and standing west of Didcot too, except on the local commuting flows for which around Bristol I gave as an example. If the peak services are full and standing leaving Swindon into London, nobody would be using them between Reading / Didcot and London which sounds somewhat implausible although you claim to have seen this?

Have I ever used the word 'apocalyptic' to describe anything further west?
 

matt_world2004

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The online journey time calculator seems to round to 5mins in the provinces. With Paddington Liverpool St at 10min that leave the rest at 35 plus a dwell at Paddington.

To Paddington, Reading is 50 then 45/35. Currently Maidenhead is around 42 and Reading 57. If these EMUs are really faster than Turbos they will make it just over 45 if not they will habitually run late.

Based on how the 387s perform today there seems to be plenty of time to spare, so around 47 Maidenhead to Liverpool St looks good, providing the bit in the tunnel works.

I believe the plan with CR is that west of west drayton its an all stations service with a variety of stopping patterns to get get an 16-18 min run time between hayes and paddington
 

jimm

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Just to refresh your memory about what was actually said:

I know what was said, I even understood it first time - and unlike you accept and understand that there is a mix of services currently developing in the Thames Valley and that people will need to use all the various elements of that mix - as opposed to everyone from Reading being accommodated on IETs.

I have never claimed long distance services are not busy beyond Didcot. They certainly are at many points in the off peak. I did not realise peak services are apparently full and standing west of Didcot too, except on the local commuting flows for which around Bristol I gave as an example. If the peak services are full and standing leaving Swindon into London, nobody would be using them between Reading / Didcot and London which sounds somewhat implausible although you claim to have seen this?

What I actually said was that some trains leave Reading heading west full and standing, which they do - hardly surprising when many of them are festooned with seat reservation labels in every reservable coach. You claimed that there was no peak overcrowding west of Didcot, except for localised commuting, such as at Bristol - another area where the ongoing changes of rolling stock and timetables will also produce a substantial increase in peak capacity.

One pretty obvious reason why there is space for people to get on London-bound services that arrive at Reading off the Berks and Hants Line, from Swindon and from Oxford is that people commute into Reading, as well as out of it - never mind the long-standing recognition that the long-distance services are part of the mix needed to help shift Reading commuters, so there is an expectation that not every seat will necessarily be filled further west in the peaks.

Which is still not the same thing as saying that the long-distance services and the trains that are used on them should be shaped by Reading commuting and nothing else.

Which is why the IET fleet wasn't.
 

jayah

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I know what was said, I even understood it first time - and unlike you accept and understand that there is a mix of services currently developing in the Thames Valley and that people will need to use all the various elements of that mix - as opposed to everyone from Reading being accommodated on IETs.



What I actually said was that some trains leave Reading heading west full and standing, which they do - hardly surprising when many of them are festooned with seat reservation labels in every reservable coach. You claimed that there was no peak overcrowding west of Didcot, except for localised commuting, such as at Bristol - another area where the ongoing changes of rolling stock and timetables will also produce a substantial increase in peak capacity.

One pretty obvious reason why there is space for people to get on London-bound services that arrive at Reading off the Berks and Hants Line, from Swindon and from Oxford is that people commute into Reading, as well as out of it - never mind the long-standing recognition that the long-distance services are part of the mix needed to help shift Reading commuters, so there is an expectation that not every seat will necessarily be filled further west in the peaks.

Which is still not the same thing as saying that the long-distance services and the trains that are used on them should be shaped by Reading commuting and nothing else.

Which is why the IET fleet wasn't.
1x10 would be shaped by a number of factors including increasing off peak and weekend capacity without running more trains and avoiding expensive double crewing.

There is a clear inconsistency between how you and Clarence Yard see the world, even down the class of train and whether the journey time will be compared with an express or not. You have spent a long time arguing the peak busting 387s and IETs will fix Reading only to be told quite clearly that they won't and Reading punters will have to use the 345s which will take 50mins to Paddington. I maintain that as today they won't use them unless you are going to make them and the message about more seats will ring hollow.

There are also a lot of big risks emerging in this brave new world, more trains rammed through an already congested and unpunctual bit of railway. Granted having the 345s disappear down the tunnel will help, but there is a lot on the debit side and having half the off peak arrivals needing to pair up for the peak is another problem that wouldn't exist if they hadn't gone for coupled units.

I have yet to see evidence of this peak crowding from west of Didcot heading towards London and having read the Great Western RUS there wasn't any back then anyway.

If the new service does involve not stopping a good number of trains at Reading, the risk is carrying empty seats all the way to London rather than fixing a problem that may not even exist.
 

The Ham

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How many 10 coach units should there be?

I would suggest that if it's not many (upto 10) then it's not going to benefit to many people and run the risk of not being any much more than that and I'd suggest the extra lease costs would probably be prohibitive.
 

jayah

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How many 10 coach units should there be?

I would suggest that if it's not many (upto 10) then it's not going to benefit to many people and run the risk of not being any much more than that and I'd suggest the extra lease costs would probably be prohibitive.
This is purely hypothetical of course:

Everything that maps to the current high speed long distance services which would be 2xWales/Bristol, 1xeach Cotswold, 1x West of England. For three peak hours approx 1630-1930 that is 21x10car for a start. Until electrification the 1x Oxford will also be required but some will come back within 3hr.

Bedwyn is a real headache. At the moment using HSTs seems to generate lots of very quiet trains to Frome, Westbury and Paignton because there is nowhere to turn round between Newbury and Westbury and the Bedwyn service doesn't or didn't serve London in the peak. The current plans don't fix this problem unless the plan is to start splitting 2x5 at Newbury. I would suggest at least a 8 car siding and an IPEMU/FLEX solution to the lack of wires with a limited semi fast service 1x7 off peak 1x10 peak serving the larger places like Newbury, Pewsey and Caste Cary.

Then you need a hard nosed approach to the extremities. There is already a lot of dead wood that once it gets crystallised in the timetable proves very difficult to uproot. Set a revenue per hour/mile and or a passenger number threshold and if both legs fail the test it either becomes a DMU/EMU or a connecting train. This would probably mean a lot of off peak miles to places like Paignton, Hereford and Cheltenham disappear from the current plan.

Everything that is left and doesn't touch either London peak could be formed by a 1x7 formation that is not divisible or expandable and would seat roughly the same as a current low density HST.

Next is the new express trains which off peak I believe serve the two Bristol stations at 2tph off peak and then split in the peaks to run fast Chippenham and Bristol Parkway to Wales. I suspect they get nowhere near filling 7 off peak nor 10 cars in the peak unless more stops are added.

Though they would probably pass a test above, they look and feel like HS2 purely abstractive showboating that loses the government money in exchange for purely illusory and intangible value of time saved.

There is a strong case not to run them at all, even on the peaks, on the grounds that the already poor levels of punctuality prove there is no space for them. Alternatively they could run 1x7 in the peak only.

On lease costs you already have a very large fleet of 2x5 so in vehicle numbers there would not be a great variance to the present and far fewer train miles being operated by this fleet. The current cars per train across both fleets is 9.45 slightly more than having 80% 1x10 and 20% 1x7. On the current fleet size of 605 vehicles that would equate to 12x7 and 52x10 although you probably don't need more than about 35-40x10 to cover both peaks depending on what the Venn diagram looks like AM to PM
 
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The Ham

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52 x 10 coach 80x
12 x 7 coach 80x

Vs the fleet that they are replacing

52 HST's
14 x 180's

Therefore on a basic level the 7 coach units would have to sub for the 180's.

Which could just about work if you didn't want to increase train services. The problem is that there's more services to Cornwall (1tph all day rather than most of the day), semi fast service on the B&H, the fast service through Bristol and so on.

Some of that could be covered by the quicker journey times, however you're still going to be some units short, which will mean needing more coaches which would equate to more lease costs.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Just for reference, 10-car trains to Gloucester is awkward because NR have decided they can only use platform 4, despite the fact P1&2 combined are about 1/3 mile in length!
 

jimm

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1x10 would be shaped by a number of factors including increasing off peak and weekend capacity without running more trains and avoiding expensive double crewing.

There is a clear inconsistency between how you and Clarence Yard see the world, even down the class of train and whether the journey time will be compared with an express or not. You have spent a long time arguing the peak busting 387s and IETs will fix Reading only to be told quite clearly that they won't and Reading punters will have to use the 345s which will take 50mins to Paddington. I maintain that as today they won't use them unless you are going to make them and the message about more seats will ring hollow.

There are also a lot of big risks emerging in this brave new world, more trains rammed through an already congested and unpunctual bit of railway. Granted having the 345s disappear down the tunnel will help, but there is a lot on the debit side and having half the off peak arrivals needing to pair up for the peak is another problem that wouldn't exist if they hadn't gone for coupled units.

I have yet to see evidence of this peak crowding from west of Didcot heading towards London and having read the Great Western RUS there wasn't any back then anyway.

If the new service does involve not stopping a good number of trains at Reading, the risk is carrying empty seats all the way to London rather than fixing a problem that may not even exist.

I did not say IETs and 387s alone would 'fix' Reading - if you had bothered to read my earlier posts, you would see plain as day that I argued that some passengers may opt to use Crossrail services instead - in just the same way that some passengers from Reading use SWR to Waterloo now. But you refuse to accept that anyone may even contemplate changing their travel habits, never mind actually do so.

The only way to 'fix' Reading to your satisfaction would be IETs shuttling up and down between the two points, without pesky passengers from anywhere else, locally or further afield, getting in the way

And even though you are obsessed with Reading, if passengers in other places in the Thames Valley opt to switch to Crossrail, then that can also free capacity on other services for the oh-so-important Reading commuters. I repeat, for the umpteenth time now, it is not all about Reading peak passengers - never was, never will be.

Again, do some research - the only trains that will not be stopping at the centre of the universe are perhaps the odd peak Didcot starter that then calls at Twyford and Maidenhead to shift the crowds there and the two off-peak IET services to and from Bristol, operated by five-car sets, plus the third peak service per hour to/from Bristol and South Wales. Though no doubt some Reading commuters will still get on board the latter anyway and then throw a strop on Twitter because they ended up at Chippenham or Bristol Parkway with an excess fare to pay.

This is purely hypothetical of course:

Everything that maps to the current high speed long distance services which would be 2xWales/Bristol, 1xeach Cotswold, 1x West of England. For three peak hours approx 1630-1930 that is 21x10car for a start. Until electrification the 1x Oxford will also be required but some will come back within 3hr.

Bedwyn is a real headache. At the moment using HSTs seems to generate lots of very quiet trains to Frome, Westbury and Paignton because there is nowhere to turn round between Newbury and Westbury and the Bedwyn service doesn't or didn't serve London in the peak. The current plans don't fix this problem unless the plan is to start splitting 2x5 at Newbury. I would suggest at least a 8 car siding and an IPEMU/FLEX solution to the lack of wires with a limited semi fast service 1x7 off peak 1x10 peak serving the larger places like Newbury, Pewsey and Caste Cary.

Then you need a hard nosed approach to the extremities. There is already a lot of dead wood that once it gets crystallised in the timetable proves very difficult to uproot. Set a revenue per hour/mile and or a passenger number threshold and if both legs fail the test it either becomes a DMU/EMU or a connecting train. This would probably mean a lot of off peak miles to places like Paignton, Hereford and Cheltenham disappear from the current plan.

Everything that is left and doesn't touch either London peak could be formed by a 1x7 formation that is not divisible or expandable and would seat roughly the same as a current low density HST.

Next is the new express trains which off peak I believe serve the two Bristol stations at 2tph off peak and then split in the peaks to run fast Chippenham and Bristol Parkway to Wales. I suspect they get nowhere near filling 7 off peak nor 10 cars in the peak unless more stops are added.

Though they would probably pass a test above, they look and feel like HS2 purely abstractive showboating that loses the government money in exchange for purely illusory and intangible value of time saved.

There is a strong case not to run them at all, even on the peaks, on the grounds that the already poor levels of punctuality prove there is no space for them. Alternatively they could run 1x7 in the peak only.

On lease costs you already have a very large fleet of 2x5 so in vehicle numbers there would not be a great variance to the present and far fewer train miles being operated by this fleet. The current cars per train across both fleets is 9.45 slightly more than having 80% 1x10 and 20% 1x7. On the current fleet size of 605 vehicles that would equate to 12x7 and 52x10 although you probably don't need more than about 35-40x10 to cover both peaks depending on what the Venn diagram looks like AM to PM

Yet again, do some basic research - like look at a current timetable or two.

Your hypothesis falls at the first hurdle.

The Cotswold Line service is effectively two trains per hour in the direction of the main peak flows morning and evening - and has been for years - plus there is the odd Oxford-only peak run, so the 'Oxford' sets - actually Oxford and all sorts of other places, thanks to diagrams that are a bit more involved than just shuttling up and down all day - will still be required.

Nor is the West of England service one train per hour in the peaks - it is half-hourly from Paddington between 16.03 and 19.03 to Exeter or beyond.

Never mind that extra IETs were acquired in order to have enough in the fleet to cover the Oxford services. And with part of the 387 fleet now going to Heathrow Express, there probably wouldn't be enough to take over Oxford fasts even when wires do get there.

And then we get to the real giveaway, talk of 'dead wood', etc.

For all the pretend interest in life beyond Reading/Didcot we can see plain as day that all you care about is the peak service between Reading and Paddington. Far from there being a boost in off-peak capacity thanks to your 1x10 jumbo trains, there would be, er, no capacity whatever in lots of places.

Everything else and the people everywhere else who use GWR's services are clearly neither here nor there as far as you are concerned.

Your concern for the Government's money is very touching, but as Clarence Yard pointed out, it was the DfT that wanted improved service frequencies for the 'dead wood' zone.

52 x 10 coach 80x
12 x 7 coach 80x

Vs the fleet that they are replacing

52 HST's
14 x 180's

This is not what is being replaced.

When FGW last had all 14 180s on its books in 2008, it did not have 52 HSTs in the fleet. More HSTs were acquired in 2007-8 to replace some of them. The IETs are also replacing a number of Turbo diagrams on Oxford/Cotswold Line and Bedwyn services.
 

The Ham

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This is not what is being replaced.

When FGW last had all 14 180s on its books in 2008, it did not have 52 HSTs in the fleet. More HSTs were acquired in 2007-8 to replace some of them. The IETs are also replacing a number of Turbo diagrams on Oxford/Cotswold Line and Bedwyn services.

Thanks for the correction, however the general point still stands that 52*10 and 12*7 wouldn't be enough to cover the services that are required to be run by the 80x's.
 

MAV39

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Its about time the Reading peak commuters were sorted out.

I would like to see all IETs with a destination/origin beyond say Oxford, Swindon and Westbury made pick up and set down only, at least during the peaks. A hefty 'penalty fare' or other financial sanction for breach. After all, these people are probably contributing the least amount of actual revenue per passenger on the train.

Wasn't it Gerry Fiennes who arranged an unannounced relief to accommodate Reading pasengers for an evening peak West Country express and then non-stopped the main train at Reading, carrying all the commuters on to Taunton or Exeter?
 

cactustwirly

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Its about time the Reading peak commuters were sorted out.

I would like to see all IETs with a destination/origin beyond say Oxford, Swindon and Westbury made pick up and set down only, at least during the peaks. A hefty 'penalty fare' or other financial sanction for breach. After all, these people are probably contributing the least amount of actual revenue per passenger on the train.

Wasn't it Gerry Fiennes who arranged an unannounced relief to accommodate Reading pasengers for an evening peak West Country express and then non-stopped the main train at Reading, carrying all the commuters on to Taunton or Exeter?

Where do the Reading commuters go then?
The stoppers take double the time, and are rammed full of local passengers for Hayes, Langley, Slough, Burnham etc, and the semis are rammed with Maidenhead & Twyford commuters.
I think you'll find that Reading commuters (and other TV commuters) make a significant proportion of GWRs fares revenue.
 

JonathanH

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Its about time the Reading peak commuters were sorted out.

I would like to see all IETs with a destination/origin beyond say Oxford, Swindon and Westbury made pick up and set down only, at least during the peaks. A hefty 'penalty fare' or other financial sanction for breach. After all, these people are probably contributing the least amount of actual revenue per passenger on the train.

It has been explained in the past that you want at least some passengers on board peak trains from Paddington who are getting off at Reading since, if the trains were perfectly loaded with passengers for the rest there wouldn't be any room for passengers from Reading heading west to be able to board.

Ever since the pick up only policy was removed in the very early 1990s with the change to 2+8 HSTs using carriages released from the East Coast line this has been a question.

Some common sense about which services are going to load heaviest from Paddington is needed from Reading commuters but the only way to practically serve them with the current line capacity is to accommodate them properly spread across the high speed services.

If there were six lines between Paddington and Reading the story would be very different but there aren't.
 

The Ham

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If there were six lines between Paddington and Reading the story would be very different but there aren't.

I would suggest that a new line or extra lines could be something that would be needed in the not too distant future.

Although I would suggest that it could bypass Reading and pick up services to Bristol, Exeter and Southampton so as to reduce the costs of an extra line through Reading but would allow more services to Reading (akin to hire HS2 is bypassing MK, Coventry, etc.).

However that's fairy off topic.
 

coppercapped

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Reading
Its about time the Reading peak commuters were sorted out.

I would like to see all IETs with a destination/origin beyond say Oxford, Swindon and Westbury made pick up and set down only, at least during the peaks. A hefty 'penalty fare' or other financial sanction for breach. After all, these people are probably contributing the least amount of actual revenue per passenger on the train.

Wasn't it Gerry Fiennes who arranged an unannounced relief to accommodate Reading pasengers for an evening peak West Country express and then non-stopped the main train at Reading, carrying all the commuters on to Taunton or Exeter?
Taking all the travel modes into account, rail, car and bus, more people travel to Reading to work than travel from Reading. This has been the case for some years, for example the Council's Sites and Detailed Policies Document, one of the documents that make up Reading’s Local Development Framework states
6.1.3 Reading is a dense urban Borough, containing a broad variety of uses. It has a thriving economy and is a net importer of labour.
(My bolding).
There is clearly some imbalance in flows, especially to and from Paddington, but taking all the flows into account (five rail routes meet at Reading, six if one considers the Oxford and Swindon flows separately) the number of inbound and outbound passengers in each of the morning and evening peak periods is roughly balanced.

Some 17 million people start and finish their journeys in Reading every year to which must be added the 4 million who change trains. This must be seen against the 3.5 million who use Didcot, the 6.5 million using Oxford and the 3.5 million using Swindon. The demands on the services are significantly different.

The counterpeak flows from Paddington to Reading are significant - one only has to stand on the platform in the morning watching the number of people disembarking from the fast Down trains to realise this - but the to-London flows in the morning (and the reverse in the evening) are, of course, larger. The oft repeated image in these Forums of the stereotype Reading commuter uniquely insisting on fast trains to London is untrue - any commuter from anywhere would like a fast train to London, it's just that there are a lot of them using Reading.

To serve all these disparate flows is difficult and the timetable is a compromise. The additional capacity offered by the IETs, the 387s and, closer in to London, Crossrail will be welcome, but it will be impossible to give everyone what they would like. But they might get what they are prepared to pay for...

..which brings me to the fares paid. The suggestion was made that Reading travellers do not contribute their fair share. A poster on another Forum recently posted an analysis of the pence per mile costs for a small subset of GWR trips to and from Paddington based on the cost of annual tickets and assuming one return journey is made on each and every day of the year. Your supposition is incorrect, the results are:
  • Slough 19.7
  • Maidenhead 17.6
  • Reading 19.9
  • Goring 13.7
  • Didcot 13.2
  • Swindon 15.6
  • Appleford 12.7
  • Oxford 11.1
An annual season ticket from Newbury to London costs £4,844, one from Bedwyn £5096 but one from Reading costs £5,300. At these prices the 'Reading Commuter'™ should get what he or she has paid for.
 
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jfollows

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Wilmslow
An annual season ticket from Newbury to London costs £4,844, one from Bedwyn £5096 but one from Reading costs £5,300. At these prices the 'Reading Commuter'™ should get what he or she has paid for.
An annual season ticket from Reading to London is £4,464, surely, and less than one from Newbury? Or am I completely missing a subtle point you're making that has passed me by completely?
 

Kite159

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£5300 is the cost of a Reading Travelcard, looking at NRE there isn't a "Reading - London Terminals" season ticket available (as only the Travelcard option is shown).

Compared to Newbury where a Newbury - London Terminals season is £4844 and a Newbury travelcard is £5656
 

jfollows

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OK, then I should clarify - brfares.com gives a figure for "Reading Stations to London Terminals" and an annual season ticket cost of £4,464. It also shows the Travelcard option you quote. I don't know why NRE doesn't show the lower fare and of course brfares.com could be wrong.

Standard
SEASON
STANDARD SEASON TKT
PSS

From READING STATIONS
To LONDON TERMINALS
Route ANY PERMITTED

PRICE
Fare set by: GWR GWR
Passengers per ticket: 1 adult OR 1 child
Discount Status Status Code
(shown on ticket)
Price
ADULT £111.60
CHILD CHILD £55.80
VALIDITY & SEASON TICKET CALCULATOR
Unlimited travel is permitted for:
Any period from
1 month to 12 months
The price shown is only valid as a base rate for period season tickets:
PSS SEASON STD
Min. Validity: 1 month Max. Validity: 12 months
Months: Days:
Season Period Adult Fare Child Fare
12 months £4,464.00 £2,232.00
 

The Ham

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An annual season ticket from Reading to London is £4,464, surely, and less than one from Newbury? Or am I completely missing a subtle point you're making that has passed me by completely?

National rail enquiries seems to list the zone 1-6 ticket price from Reading as £5,300.

Interestingly it's better to have the Basingstoke to London (any permitted which allows travel via Reading), as this is the same cost but gives you the option to use more services if you ever wanted to use them (i.e. Reading to Basingstoke).
 

Charlie M.

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4 Oct 2015
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170
Location
Gloucester
Just for reference, 10-car trains to Gloucester is awkward because NR have decided they can only use platform 4, despite the fact P1&2 combined are about 1/3 mile in length!

Stupid. The amount of times you wait for a platform in Gloucester anyway is awful, let alone just one platform. I get why as it crosses over just ever so slightly into platform 1. Don’t know if this is because of track layout but still rediculpus
 

Parallel

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Mass disruption around Bristol and Bath this evening peak due to a broken down train between the two. Anyone know which unit it was?

Disruption at Bristol compounded by signalling problems between Temple Meads and Weston-super-Mare, if JourneyCheck is anything to go by.
 

JN114

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28 Jun 2005
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3,530
Mass disruption around Bristol and Bath this evening peak due to a broken down train between the two. Anyone know which unit it was?

Disruption at Bristol compounded by signalling problems between Temple Meads and Weston-super-Mare, if JourneyCheck is anything to go by.

153370+153329+153372
 

FGW_DID

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81D & 81E
Mass disruption around Bristol and Bath this evening peak due to a broken down train between the two. Anyone know which unit it was?

Disruption at Bristol compounded by signalling problems between Temple Meads and Weston-super-Mare, if JourneyCheck is anything to go by.

2C20 14:41 Gloucester- Westbury formed of 3x 153 units went tilt at Keynsham.
 
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