transmanche
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Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders
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RailUK Forums
Yes, thank you.
(Image is of a mock up unit showing the corporate T logo and the franchise name in Welsh and English)
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The T stands for Trafnidiaeth Cymru/Transport for Wales.
krus_aragon
Established Member
You've forgotten the two sidings behind the down platform:
Terminating trains would have to draw forward into Belmont tunnel, but can then back out into one of the two sidings. When it's time for the return jouney, they'd draw forward into Belmont tunnel again and back onto the down platform line.
The sidings are shorter since the path to the car park was built, but they'll evidently take a 4-car DMU, given the 2017 image from nrwail.org.uk above.
Edit: stabling on the Down Main is what Virgin were doing with their Bangor terminators in 2012: see http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1201c.htm . A five-car voyager will fit on the sidings, but it's a very tight squeeze.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
We know they (Transport for Wales) read posts hello James Arden!
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
It seems the Civitys will have gangways and the Flirts won't.
Not entirely consistent...
Not entirely consistent...
Do they need to be consistent given their allocations?
Pete_uk
On Moderation
Come on, get some green in the livery!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
AIUI the Civitys will spend most of their time working in multiple while the FLIRTs won't.
According to the presentation that was briefly released on Tuesday:
£15m has been allocated to improve accessibility and provide step free access at Wales' 247 stations.
Considering that it cost £12m to make 5 stations fully accessible recently, how many stations will be made fully accessible with £15m?
Surely we should be aiming for every station in Wales to be fully accessible (eg. with lifts to all platforms) by the end of the franchise?
£15m has been allocated to improve accessibility and provide step free access at Wales' 247 stations.
Considering that it cost £12m to make 5 stations fully accessible recently, how many stations will be made fully accessible with £15m?
Surely we should be aiming for every station in Wales to be fully accessible (eg. with lifts to all platforms) by the end of the franchise?
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higthomas
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Given that would cost in the region of £500 million one could question whether it would be worth it.
But yes £15 million is a pitiful amount. A classic government fig leaf of say look we've invested £X million to solve Y, when X seems big compared to household costs but trivial on a governmental scale.
How many of the 247 stations would need any works (i.e. do any already have disabled access to all the platforms where there's one or two platforms it already has lifts/ramps)?
As each station which doesn't need any works would reduce the total costs.
Also, there's likely to be several stations which have next to no passengers which wouldn't really justify the money being spent (especially if there's little or no parking and/or few properties nearby).
As such 6 stations could be 5%-10% of the stations which need money spending to make them accessible where it's worth doing.
I can't find anything about how services at Crewe, Nantwich and Wrenbury will be affected. Can anyone help?
What I would like to see is:
1ph Manchester Piccadilly - Milford Haven/Pembroke Dock - Nantwich receives all calls
1p2h Crewe - Aberystwyth - Crewe, Nantwich, Wrenbury, Whitchurch, Prees, Wem, Yorton, Shrewsbury and continues to Aberystwyth
1p2h Crewe - Llandrindod - Crewe, Nantwich, Wrenbury, Whitchurch, Prees, Wem, Yorton, Shrewsbury and continues to Llandrindod/Swansea via Heart of Wales
This would provide better links between Wales and the North of England, and better connections from smaller towns in Cheshire and Shropshire to Crewe and Shrewsbury.
What I would like to see is:
1ph Manchester Piccadilly - Milford Haven/Pembroke Dock - Nantwich receives all calls
1p2h Crewe - Aberystwyth - Crewe, Nantwich, Wrenbury, Whitchurch, Prees, Wem, Yorton, Shrewsbury and continues to Aberystwyth
1p2h Crewe - Llandrindod - Crewe, Nantwich, Wrenbury, Whitchurch, Prees, Wem, Yorton, Shrewsbury and continues to Llandrindod/Swansea via Heart of Wales
This would provide better links between Wales and the North of England, and better connections from smaller towns in Cheshire and Shropshire to Crewe and Shrewsbury.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Information given has been patchy by recent DfT standards on interactive maps. Pembrokeshire is simiarly unclear. What we do know is it won't have 230's!
The hourly Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury is not described as hourly to Birmingham so terminating at Shrewsbury or Crewe is still possible for the additional trains.
All I've been able to see is on the KA map, there's a a separate line for Crewe to Shrewsbury, with Nantwich highlighted. So I doubt your regular Nantwich stop will occur.
craigybagel
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Nobody seems to know what's happening with that area yet. Possibly it's not getting much publicity since the WAG won't want to talk about English enhancements much (note - this is different from the conspiracy theories certain other posters believe in where they feel this route will deliberately be treated worse by the W&B franchise by virtue of its geographic location) but it'll certainly be interesting to see what does happen.
One thing I will say though as someone who works that line regularly - I can see little need as things currently stand to increase the local service to hourly, and if you were to have all Manchester services stopping at Nantwich then the current 2 hourly local service would be even more quiet then it already is! The local currently routinely sees half or even more of the passengers boarding at Crewe leaving at Nantwich. Personally, I'd like to see more Manchester services stopping at Nantwich, but it remains to be seen if that can be done or not.....
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Any mention of plans for services to Manchester/Birmingham were studiously avoided in the context of Manchester or Birmingham services will improve. You had to look at the other end of the service like the commitment for 1st class sections on Manchester to Swansea by 2024 was tucked away in the Mid & West Wales Summary not the Borders one which it will primarily be for!
Rail Technology Magazine are reporting that the Civity Fleet will be 44 x 2 car & 26 x 3 car by the end of 2022 with a further 7 x 2 car in 2024.
So the Civity fleet will have to cover.
1 tph Bangor to Manchester Airport (6 diagrams)
1 tph Llandudno to Liverpool (5 diagrams)
Conwy Valley (1 diagram)
1 tph Crewe to Chester shuttle (1 diagram)
0.5 tph Liverpool to Shrewsbury (3 diagrams)
0.5 tph Liverpool to Cardiff (5 diagrams)
0.5 tph Crewe to Shrewsbury local (1 diagram)
0.5 tph Pwllheli/Aberystwyth/Shrewsbury/BHM INTL/Chester/Holyhead. (17 diagrams)
0.5 tph Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury (2 diagrams)
5 tpd Cardiff to Holyhead (3 diagrams)
1 tph Manchester to Carmarthen (11 diagrams)
0.5 tph Carmathen to Milford Haven (1 diagram)
Thats 56 diagrams to cover from 70 units. So there's some scope for peak strengthening in 2022 but the real capacity boost will be when the final batch arrives.
Rail Technology Magazine are reporting that the Civity Fleet will be 44 x 2 car & 26 x 3 car by the end of 2022 with a further 7 x 2 car in 2024.
So the Civity fleet will have to cover.
1 tph Bangor to Manchester Airport (6 diagrams)
1 tph Llandudno to Liverpool (5 diagrams)
Conwy Valley (1 diagram)
1 tph Crewe to Chester shuttle (1 diagram)
0.5 tph Liverpool to Shrewsbury (3 diagrams)
0.5 tph Liverpool to Cardiff (5 diagrams)
0.5 tph Crewe to Shrewsbury local (1 diagram)
0.5 tph Pwllheli/Aberystwyth/Shrewsbury/BHM INTL/Chester/Holyhead. (17 diagrams)
0.5 tph Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury (2 diagrams)
5 tpd Cardiff to Holyhead (3 diagrams)
1 tph Manchester to Carmarthen (11 diagrams)
0.5 tph Carmathen to Milford Haven (1 diagram)
Thats 56 diagrams to cover from 70 units. So there's some scope for peak strengthening in 2022 but the real capacity boost will be when the final batch arrives.
OrangeJuice
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Also was there talk of an extra 'fast' service Tywyn - Pwllheli from 2025 which would need an extra 2/3 diagrams. This was mentioned alongside improvements to Sunday services on the line so have no idea whether they will operate all week (I assume so) or if they will go through to Machynlleth to link to the extra Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth service
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Do those figures allow for the fact that some Manchester to North Wales services already have 4 carriages so it will need to be more than one 2 or 3 car unit per diagram to remain the current capacity level?
Operators seem to diagram around 90% of their trains in regular use so around 7 units available for strengthening isn't all that much, considering how full some services currently get.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
There is 11 more 3 car units than now to factor in as well. Let's see would there be enough for Manchester to West a Wales, Manchester to Bangor & Holyhead to Cardiff DMU"s?
I suspect a more mix and match approach may occur and some 4 car formations will be running.
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...-80-locally-made-trains-for-wales-and-borders
With the Commitment to run First Class between Swansea and Manchester by 2024 the above is perhaps hinting at only one train every two hours having this facility. The follow on order is clearly linked to the commitment but only 7 units when you need 9 diagrams covering for the current hourly service? Assuming that the follow on order will have first class sections - your not going to stick them in stock running around declassified for two years or retrofit new units?
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OrangeJuice
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Maybe they'll only have the first class on the Carmarthen services then.
Or could they split the service at Swansea with 2 car (plus first-class) running Manchester to Swansea with another 2 car unit running Swansea West. Would that take it down to 6/7 diagrams?
Bletchleyite
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The full set of units would allow no 2 car running except the Conwy Valley. Before that there will be at least one 2 car running alone. Disappointing.
Teflon Lettuce
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seems strange to me that after all the effort made to make TrawsCymru a recognised brand on the buses as "filling in gaps in the rail network" TfW doesn't use the existing Traws branding on the trains now!
Gareth Marston
Established Member
2025 is the first summer after the full fleet is in service Dec2024. As far as I can see it's only the line north of Tywyn that will get the enhancement and Sunday only. It will need 2 units and crew to cover it.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's interesting - a completely isolated non-connectional service. Is there a very high amount of local demand that vastly outstrips demand to connect at Mach? That isn't at all my observation.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
A four car that splits at Swansea with the first class unit joining up with the next arrival from West Wales every two hours would work. Probably working a limited stop up the Marches. The other hour could be a 3 car diagram that's semi fast.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
I don't think we'll see anything 2 car run into Manchester/Cardiff/Birmingham, however they could appear on the Liverpool- Shrewsbury turns.
Cambrian mainline will be 4 car , 2 car, 4 car, 2 car etc initially.
OrangeJuice
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Those were my thoughts too and why I was surprised that the comment seemed linked to Sundays only.
In my experience and summer in particular there are a lot of through passengers from Birmingham/Shrewsbury to Tywyn and beyond. Although I could see weekends being when it's most needed.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
It's aimed at the caravan trade not through traffic plus there's pathing issues to Dovey Junction and beyond.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Highly disappointing. So that's the present issues not solved, then, and barely any room for growth. And all that so they could have a fleet replacement.
They'd be better off keeping the 175s and 158s and adding in a smaller number of new-build, ideally 4-car formations with 1st for proper long distance stuff.
Or might something else stay when they (like LM with the 321s then 319s) realise they didn't *quite* order enough? (I know they're getting some new, but for now the LNR fleet is basically short 10 class 350s, coincidentally the same number TPE have).
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