It is essentially arbitrary though. Lines drawn due to war, diplomacy, trade etc. What makes Clontibret one country but Derrynoose another? (two random places on a map that are on either side of the Irish border). Common legal system, common language, common education system? Well the UK fails on those.
Well, yes, it is arbitrary in a sense. Borders are what they are. But the systems operating within those borders are what makes the difference between different countries.
And in any case, why does that the country of your birth have more of an influence on you growing up than other factors that have nothing to do with countries as a concept (if your school is good, if there is a lot of crime in your area, if your parents can feed you good meals or not etc)? I would happily argue that the specific factors of where I grew up (deprived area, good links to Cardiff, lots of unemployment, lots of drug and alcohol abuse, parents who wanted me to do better than they did, parents who were able to feed me well and help me with my education, teachers who saw I had some potential and helped nurture it, etc etc etc) have affected me much more than just me being born in the UK. So I ask again, why do you bang on about country so much? If anything, I'd have thought you'd be banging on about towns / villages / cities as the specifics of them can have much more of an impact on you than just what country you are born in.
Many of those factors you mention are country specific. Parents wanting you do do better than they did - what does that mean? It means different things in different parts of the world. If you are female you would also find that “doing well” can mean very different things than if you were male, in different parts of the world.
Teachers identifying your potential (and the fact you were lucky enough to receive an education at all) is a product of being educated by the British education system.
I disagree. As I said, I don't know why you are so focused on country. Being the EU means I have grown up being able to freely cross borders without a Visa, use the same currency in multiple countries whilst on holiday etc. That does have an impact on how you view the world (especially borders and the arbitrary lines we draw on a map).
Yes but you have been able to do that first and foremost by virtue of holding a British passport. I have travelled to various countries around the world (including parts of the EU).
Borders are arbitrary, but what happens within them is not.
But you could say that compared with someone from a rural villiage in North Wales too (different language - Welsh, different religion - I'm atheist so any region would be different, different values - I have different values to many of the chavs who lived just down the road from me, so I'd hardly say that is defined by country either).
But those chavs (who have made different choices to you) are still a product of a shared experience of being born, growing up in the U.K., education, participation in U.K. society in whatever form. The lowest common denominator binding you to them is you are part of the same demos
@AlterEgo referred to previously.
So what is "being British" then? Because as far as I can see, you can't seem to define it apart from basically saying it can be anything as long as they share our values. So what if there were a group of other countries near us who also shared the same, or very similar values. Would it not make sense, using your logic, that there could be some kind of agreement or bond between those countries?
I don’t disagree with you on agreements between nations. Where the EU falls down is that it increasingly seeks to minimise and ignore the fundamental differences between member states. The fact is the countries of Europe are very different both economically and culturally.
Trying to define Britishness is a difficult question, I’ll grant you. Perhaps the “elephant test” of the legal world is a good way to try to describe it: “Britishness” is an amorphous concept which, like an elephant, is difficult to define, but is instantly recognisable. It is the complex product of a number of factors including (but not limited to): a sense of belonging; participation in the U.K; living here; speaking English; working here; being educated here; paying tax; voting in elections.
What does being Welsh mean to you? You have used in in your username on this site - I suspect your Welsh identity means more to you than “the bit of rock you happened to be born on”.
I would agree with you to an extent: some of us seem seem to have lost the ability to identify as British, or take any pride in where we are from, as evidenced by this thread. I think that’s a real shame. If we want to continue according to the values we take for granted, we should get a bit better at defining them.
Certainly that isn't what I am trying to do.
What I am saying is that to jump on country as the only kind of unifying factor silly.
A set of values sure - but as already asked what would they be? And surely multiple countries can share the same values?
It’s not the only unifying factor but it is the most important. Being British means a whole lot more than where you are born, or where you currently live.
and Liechtenstein at football, England at curling and hockey, Scotland at rugby and hockey etc...but I'm much happier supporting GB as it rolls everyone into one.
