TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable

[Camden]

Your point is what exactly? that is significant traffic between Manchester and Liverpool but that hardly means we should have more through trains to Liverpool from Yorkshire and the North East, off the top my head which while may not be scientific I can think of plenty of people from Yorkshire who use the train to Manchester and Manchester Airport and no one who uses the train to Liverpool. Liverpool has 2 through trains from TPE per hour that seems quite reasonable to me along with 2 to the Airport. Other suggestions of Serving Preston and Blackpool well Yorkshire is already largely served by Northern Services to Blackpool. a through service to Chester might be of some benefit but then Northern will to some degree be taking on that role with a through Calder Valley service to Chester.

I suspect a lot of TPE customers want a through service to the Airport, and the new service also offers an interchange at both Victoria and Piccadilly for other routes.

I read the first version of this, before you cut the bit out at the end. FYI I go to Liverpool, a lot, and of course so do many other people to the extent that puts it somewhere around top 5 most visited - not surprising since it is one of the country's biggest cities. If you don't want to go then great.

Your edit came too late for your comment to not be revealing, and my suspicions were confirmed. I'd much rather talk about connecting places better, rather than trying to find reasons not to.

Bye.

 

[Bantamzen]

FYI I go to Liverpool, a lot, and of course so do many other people to the extent that puts it somewhere around top 5 most visited - not surprising since it is one of the country's biggest cities. If you don't want to go then great.

I personally don't doubt the demand between Liverpool<>Manchester, I've been through Manchester towards Cheshire / Warrington to have seen it over the years. However that doesn't distract that there is growing demand for Merseyside / Yorkshire / NE to Manchester Airport. The station itself has seen nearly a third growth in recent years, and this is before more services through to it started. Plus airport is growing, not just in size but in routes with more long haul services going from there & aspirations from the owners for many more. Indeed on other forums from this debates are taking place about how places like LBA, Liverpool, Doncaster et al can absorb more short haul / charter flights so that Manchester can open up more long haul capacity.

With growth comes the need for more capacity to get passengers to and from the airport. Unfortunately Yorkshire & the North East are hamstrung with the one major route over the Pennines in the M62, and then depending on the time of day the car park that can be the M60. If you've ever fallen off a red eye, and found your booked taxi home is stuck in traffic believe me you'll certainly consider using the train in future, especially if it can get you a significant amount of the way home without having the hassle that can be Piccadilly. So having a number of destinations helps boost the growth, and justify the not inconsiderable cost of improvements there as well as others such as the Ordsall Chord. Once Northern & TPE get to grips with their timetables, and new, larger stock arrives the Manchester Airport route will become even more lucrative, especially as the M62/60 slowly chokes.

And before the "but in London" argument pops up again, there are plenty of voices call for better connectivity to Heathrow, especially from the South & West of the country. London's Heathrow connections are the way they are because of the nature of London's termini, but this does not mean they are the best solution all round (as I'm sure Crossrail will show for the City).

 

[peri]

My apologies if this has already been covered or readily available somewhere, but do we have any figures on passengers travelling to Manchester Airport from Piccadilly as opposed to other stations? Presumably from ticket sales.

 

[Altfish]

My apologies if this has already been covered or readily available somewhere, but do we have any figures on passengers travelling to Manchester Airport from Piccadilly as opposed to other stations? Presumably from ticket sales.

I've not seen any.
It also depends if you mean starting at Piccadilly and going to the Airport; changing at Piccadilly and going to the Airport or going on a through train to the Airport.

 

[mike57]

Well the York Scarborough service is running slightly better today, however still not at an acceptable level, average lateness seems to around 10 mins and 3 of the 4 decent connections at Seamer have been missed, but at least no cancellations so far. No doubt this is due to starting from Man Vic rather than Liverpool.

 

[frodshamfella]

I personally don't doubt the demand between Liverpool<>Manchester, I've been through Manchester towards Cheshire / Warrington to have seen it over the years. However that doesn't distract that there is growing demand for Merseyside / Yorkshire / NE to Manchester Airport. The station itself has seen nearly a third growth in recent years, and this is before more services through to it started. Plus airport is growing, not just in size but in routes with more long haul services going from there & aspirations from the owners for many more. Indeed on other forums from this debates are taking place about how places like LBA, Liverpool, Doncaster et al can absorb more short haul / charter flights so that Manchester can open up more long haul capacity.

With growth comes the need for more capacity to get passengers to and from the airport. Unfortunately Yorkshire & the North East are hamstrung with the one major route over the Pennines in the M62, and then depending on the time of day the car park that can be the M60. If you've ever fallen off a red eye, and found your booked taxi home is stuck in traffic believe me you'll certainly consider using the train in future, especially if it can get you a significant amount of the way home without having the hassle that can be Piccadilly. So having a number of destinations helps boost the growth, and justify the not inconsiderable cost of improvements there as well as others such as the Ordsall Chord. Once Northern & TPE get to grips with their timetables, and new, larger stock arrives the Manchester Airport route will become even more lucrative, especially as the M62/60 slowly chokes.

And before the "but in London" argument pops up again, there are plenty of voices call for better connectivity to Heathrow, especially from the South & West of the country. London's Heathrow connections are the way they are because of the nature of London's termini, but this does not mean they are the best solution all round (as I'm sure Crossrail will show for the City).

Where it can happen, the powers that be should be adding rail links to the other Northern Airports and thinking of the future, Liverpool, Leeds /Bradford and Doncaster.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Doncaster Sheffield is pretty easy to connect to the ECML as i recall and Peel have put in the basics for a station already? (Happy to be corrected).

Leeds Bradford however would require some tunnelling and so whilst a nothing job on the mainland is probably ruled out over here alas!

 

[Bantamzen]

Where it can happen, the powers that be should be adding rail links to the other Northern Airports and thinking of the future, Liverpool, Leeds /Bradford and Doncaster.

I can't see there being anything more than what they have at the moment. I'd say Doncaster would be the easiest, but as the quietest airport by some distance and with few population centres nearby would struggle to make a case. Personally I would love to see LBA have one but its location and elevation makes it a non-starter. Liverpool might one day argue for an airport station, although it might only be an extension of Merseyrail. In truth none of these airports is likely to see any kind of bespoke station, so as Manchester grows it is the one that will serve the north and need more capacity.

 

[Bantamzen]

Doncaster Sheffield is pretty easy to connect to the ECML as i recall and Peel have put in the basics for a station already? (Happy to be corrected).

Leeds Bradford however would require some tunnelling and so whilst a nothing job on the mainland is probably ruled out over here alas!

Peel have floated the idea, but with only a fraction of the passengers that LBA let alone Manchester has it has little chance of seeing the light of day. Even then it would be a parkway on the Lincoln line, a ECML spur is pure fantasy I'm afraid.

 

[frodshamfella]

I can't see there being anything more than what they have at the moment. I'd say Doncaster would be the easiest, but as the quietest airport by some distance and with few population centres nearby would struggle to make a case. Personally I would love to see LBA have one but its location and elevation makes it a non-starter. Liverpool might one day argue for an airport station, although it might only be an extension of Merseyrail. In truth none of these airports is likely to see any kind of bespoke station, so as Manchester grows it is the one that will serve the north and need more capacity.

But the North needs to think ahead to the future. Air Travel won't decline and if the North wants to grow, rail and air connections need to happen. Liverpool South Parkway has been a great improvement for Liverpool Airport which is good for now, but in time a rail link to the terminal will be needed. Merseytravel I believe have this in their long term plan.

 

[Kieran1990]

Well the York Scarborough service is running slightly better today, however still not at an acceptable level, average lateness seems to around 10 mins and 3 of the 4 decent connections at Seamer have been missed, but at least no cancellations so far. No doubt this is due to starting from Man Vic rather than Liverpool.

Yes it does seem to be fairing better today, which made my first day back a lot less stressful than I was expecting. Leeds to Manchester with ease. Small delay into Victoria this morning due to congestion.
My return home was all good until Hudds- 2mins late. But held outside Mirfield for a short while due to Southport-Calder-Leeds was running late holding up the Picc-Leeds stopper and we had to crawl until Dewsbury to loop it. Only 9 late into leeeds, but as said above- a slight improvment today with the those 30+ layovers at Vic

 

[Andyh82]

With people kicking up a stink about not being able to travel on an insignificant flow like Slaithwaite to Marsden anymore, I can't believe some are suggesting the withdrawal of through Airport trains from West Yorks

The airport trains that have run for about 20 years, I can't see how they'd sell the benefits of a new timetable by axing something so established and high profile

 

[47802]

I read the first version of this, before you cut the bit out at the end. FYI I go to Liverpool, a lot, and of course so do many other people to the extent that puts it somewhere around top 5 most visited - not surprising since it is one of the country's biggest cities. If you don't want to go then great.

Your edit came too late for your comment to not be revealing, and my suspicions were confirmed. I'd much rather talk about connecting places better, rather than trying to find reasons not to.

Bye.

Manchester Airport is the 3rd biggest Airport in the Country and the biggest outside London by a country mile, and is clearly an important Airport for at least the whole of the North of England, therefore it would seem perfectly reasonable to me that a regular train service to the Airport is provided from a variety of destinations in the North of England end of.

 

[IanXC]

It could almost lead you to think that there might possibly be more merit in running 4 tph Liverpool to Newcastle via Victoria and Leeds, enabling an even timetable, rather than a) being obsessed with sending long distance trains to Manchester Airport to the detriment of all else and b) having a supposedly intercity route terminate in small to medium sized towns rather than major cities (towns which would be better and more appropriately served by lower cost connector services that can get them to more frequent and reliable longer distance services at the nearest major location)...

The trouble is that you run out of capacity between York and Leeds.

Scarborough and to a lesser extent Middlesbrough, don't necessarily require through services to Manchester, but they (in my view) have an overwhelming case for services to Leeds. If you're not going to cut them off entirely then you're left with the problem of trying to fit yet more trains through the Garforth corridor so you may as well preserve the current service pattern which addresses this constraint quite well.

 

[scarby]

Well the York Scarborough service is running slightly better today, however still not at an acceptable level, average lateness seems to around 10 mins and 3 of the 4 decent connections at Seamer have been missed, but at least no cancellations so far. No doubt this is due to starting from Man Vic rather than Liverpool.

The overwhelming majority of arrivals into Scarborough are late every day. It's completely unacceptable.

 

[underbank]

Manchester Airport is the 3rd biggest Airport in the Country and the biggest outside London by a country mile, and is clearly an important Airport for at least the whole of the North of England, therefore it would seem perfectly reasonable to me that a regular train service to the Airport is provided from a variety of destinations in the North of England end of.

All perfectly true and I agree, BUT, it's still not much use to huge numbers of passengers on the early morning departures and late evening arrivals. I'd say solving that issue is more important than adding new routes. As I've said elsewhere, despite flying 2/3 times per year from Man, I've only ever been able to use the train once as they either arrive too late (after check in time) or depart too early (for late evening arrivals). The early morning departures are just about the busiest time of day for the airport, yet people outside the immediate area simply can't use the train to get there.

 

[transmanche]

All perfectly true and I agree, BUT, it's still not much use to huge numbers of passengers on the early morning departures and late evening arrivals. I'd say solving that issue is more important than adding new routes. As I've said elsewhere, despite flying 2/3 times per year from Man, I've only ever been able to use the train once as they either arrive too late (after check in time) or depart too early (for late evening arrivals). The early morning departures are just about the busiest time of day for the airport, yet people outside the immediate area simply can't use the train to get there.

There are a few pre-06:30 arrivals from York and Sheffield, but you're right that early services from elsewhere in Manchester Airport's large catchment area are non-existent.

There used to be a departure from Newcastle at about 03:00, which was excellent for catching early flights. But now the earliest arrival at Manchester Airport is 08:07, which also requires a change at York. Not only is it too late for those early flights, requiring a change of train will put off people travelling with a family and lots of luggage - especially if they are not regular train users.

 

[Altfish]

There are a few pre-06:30 arrivals from York and Sheffield, but you're right that early services from elsewhere in Manchester Airport's large catchment area are non-existent.

There used to be a departure from Newcastle at about 03:00, which was excellent for catching early flights. But now the earliest arrival at Manchester Airport is 08:07, which also requires a change at York. Not only is it too late for those early flights, requiring a change of train will put off people travelling with a family and lots of luggage - especially if they are not regular train users.

If you can get to Manchester the first tram is shortly after 0300. They take the best part of 50 minutes but they will get you to the airport for 0400.

 

[Senex]

If you can get to Manchester the first tram is shortly after 0300. They take the best part of 50 minutes but they will get you to the airport for 0400.

That’s about as awful as the Piccadilly Line from Central London to Heathrow. Oh the tedium!

 

[tbtc]

It could almost lead you to think that there might possibly be more merit in running 4 tph Liverpool to Newcastle via Victoria and Leeds, enabling an even timetable, rather than a) being obsessed with sending long distance trains to Manchester Airport to the detriment of all else and b) having a supposedly intercity route terminate in small to medium sized towns rather than major cities (towns which would be better and more appropriately served by lower cost connector services that can get them to more frequent and reliable longer distance services at the nearest major location)...

I think there's a lot of merit in the idea of a consistent fifteen minute frequency from Liverpool to York (the only question I'd have with your example is what to do with Middlesbrough/ Scarborough, which both ought to have a service at least as far as Leeds, in line with @IanXC 's comment) - it'd be like the "simple" Thameslink service that used to operate, with four/hour to Brighton (rather than trying to divide those four trains per hour into various different branches), which was more reliable.

I suspect a lot of TPE customers want a through service to the Airport

That's the problem with these arguments - if you give them a blank question then a lot of people will "want" a through service to Manchester Airport - but do enough people use it on a daily basis to make an hourly (or half hourly) service from your local station worthwhile?

I have uses the direct train to the airport at all hours of the day many times and never ever seen it as little as 20 people on a train

Last time I scribbled the figures on the back of a bus ticket, the average arrival/ departure from Manchester Airport had around thirty two passengers. Not insignificant (in terms of Breich-like levels of demand!) but that's a lot of empty seats on a three coach train (185, 323) or a four coach train (319, 350), considering how stretched fleets are in the North.

We have nine trains an hour from Piccadilly to the Airport, but (because they are long distance ones) that means some awkward gaps.

From the Airport, you have three services in the first thirty minutes of the hour (xx:10, xx:19 and xx:29) and then *six* services in the second thirty minutes of the hour (xx:37, xx:40. xx:47, xx:50, xx:53 and xx:58).

From Piccadilly, you have six services in under half an hour (xx:07, xx:13, xx:17, xx:20, xx:29, xx:33) and then a seventeen minute wait until the xx:50. I can't think of another line with such a high frequency yet such a big gap in the service!

Whilst there are some key flights/ busier times of the day (when direct flights may be more required), the off-peak service is overkill and a messy timetable for anyone doing a simple journey like Piccadilly to the Airport. It also means that the "local" stations on the Airport line get a pretty poor service (compared to others in Greater Manchester) because they are at the mercy of long distance trains.

But I don't see it changing because the handful of passengers doing a once-a-year journey like Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport are more important than daily commuters wanting simple reliable services to the nearest city. That's politics...

 

[geoffk]

That's the problem with these arguments - if you give them a blank question then a lot of people will "want" a through service to Manchester Airport - but do enough people use it on a daily basis to make an hourly (or half hourly) service from your local station worthwhile?

It's interesting to note how few of Greater Manchester's 90-odd stations have regular all-day services to/from the Airport. Leaving aside the stations in central Manchester, there are just seven - Wigan NW, Horwich Parkway, Bolton, Salford Crescent, Stockport, Patricroft and Eccles, plus the five stations on the airport line itself. Some other stations have odd through services early morning and late evening. Rochdale is due to be added to this list in December. Several busy stations have airport services whizzing though all day, e.g. Stalybridge, Urmston and Irlam. Of course there's also Metrolink but this is only of real benefit to those from Wythenshawe and Chorlton as journeys from further afield are slow.

 

[Altfish]

It's interesting to note how few of Greater Manchester's 90-odd stations have regular all-day services to/from the Airport. Leaving aside the stations in central Manchester, there are just seven - Wigan NW, Horwich Parkway, Bolton, Salford Crescent, Stockport, Patricroft and Eccles, plus the five stations on the airport line itself. Some other stations have odd through services early morning and late evening. Rochdale is due to be added to this list in December. Several busy stations have airport services whizzing though all day, e.g. Stalybridge, Urmston and Irlam. Of course there's also Metrolink but this is only of real benefit to those from Wythenshawe and Chorlton as journeys from further afield are slow.

Can you call Stockport a direct connection? It requires a reversal at Piccadilly.

I would say about Metrolink. If you were coming to an exhibition at Manchester Central (ex G-Mex) or staying at the Midland Hotel, i.e. need to be in the west end of Manchester the tram is probably quicker than train + tram or taxi or bus

 

[geoffk]

Can you call Stockport a direct connection? It requires a reversal at Piccadilly.

I would say about Metrolink. If you were coming to an exhibition at Manchester Central (ex G-Mex) or staying at the Midland Hotel, i.e. need to be in the west end of Manchester the tram is probably quicker than train + tram or taxi or bus

I agree about Stockport but I included it as it's a through service. The 199 bus takes only 20 minutes.

 

[Altfish]

I agree about Stockport but I included it as it's a through service. The 199 bus takes only 20 minutes.

I'm not familiar with the buses but it goes to the west end of town I assume

 

[Statto]

If you can get to Manchester the first tram is shortly after 0300. They take the best part of 50 minutes but they will get you to the airport for 0400.

There is also a 24 hour bus service Stagecoach 43 from Manchester to Airport, the night service takes 45 minutes.

 

[scarby]

Another cancellation into Scarborough yesterday - the 19.35 terminated at Malton and therefore the 1946 departure cancelled. Plus 5 arrivals that were 10 minutes late or more.

What used to be a reasonably reliable service with fairly decent punctuality has been totally ruined.

 

[backontrack]

I read the first version of this, before you cut the bit out at the end. FYI I go to Liverpool, a lot, and of course so do many other people to the extent that puts it somewhere around top 5 most visited - not surprising since it is one of the country's biggest cities. If you don't want to go then great.

Your edit came too late for your comment to not be revealing, and my suspicions were confirmed. I'd much rather talk about connecting places better, rather than trying to find reasons not to.

Bye.

Out of curiosity: what did they say?

But I don't see it changing because the handful of passengers doing a once-a-year journey like Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport are more important than daily commuters wanting simple reliable services to the nearest city. That's politics...

I wonder whether direct South Route services to/from Liverpool Lime Street via Birchwood could be an option.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Out of curiosity: what did they say?


I wonder whether direct South Route services to/from Liverpool Lime Street via Birchwood could be an option.

I think that was considered but Sheffield was felt to merit a direct service. Personally i'd like to see that as it would improve the connectivity while also removing the last Piccadilly Shed reversal service. But it might have to be in lieu of something else, either the Nottingham service (terminate at Picc) or the Liverpool Airport fast service via warrington.

 

[backontrack]

I think that was considered but Sheffield was felt to merit a direct service. Personally i'd like to see that as it would improve the connectivity while also removing the last Piccadilly Shed reversal service. But it might have to be in lieu of something else, either the Nottingham service (terminate at Picc) or the Liverpool Airport fast service via warrington.

I was suggesting it might run Cleethorpes-South Humberside Mainline-Doncaster-Sheffield-Manchester-Liverpool - giving Doncaster (and potentially Rotherham) a direct Liverpool service, and replacing the Airport service (which you could cut to something like two per day in each direction). The only difficult is finding paths west of Manchester Piccadilly - which is probably a pretty sizeable barrier.

 

[mike57]

Another cancellation into Scarborough yesterday - the 19.35 terminated at Malton and therefore the 1946 departure cancelled. Plus 5 arrivals that were 10 minutes late or more.

What used to be a reasonably reliable service with fairly decent punctuality has been totally ruined.

And this is happening even although the trains are now only running to Manchester during the Liverpool Lime St. works

I checked the progress of 16:25 arrival at Seamer, and it was on time at York, so go for it, made train with a few minutes to spare, left on time, planning to connect with the 16:30 down the coast at Seamer. Sat outside Malton as 16:11 departure west was early and occupying platform. On time service now running 6 late, potentially missing connection at Seamer. As it turned arrived just as Northern service was arriving and connection made with seconds to spare.

Why did signalman let an early running Westbound service into the platform to sit and wait, therefore delaying the eastbound service?

Really this just highlights the stupidity of the current timetable. This is the first time since the new timetable was introduced that this connection has been made. Reliability is now so poor that the majority of short connections at Seamer are missed.

TPE management seem totally unconcerned by the effect of the new timetable on reliability, talking to a few staff who I see regularly they are getting fed up with dealing with angry (and rightly so) passengers whose journeys are being disrupted on a daily basis.

It will be interesting to see the effect on passenger numbers, I predict a drop, early morning trains, the commuter ones are noticeably less busy.