What will happen to the VTEC plans for retaining some MK4s?

[The Ham]

I don't understand what the problems are with the 91's/mk4's. The coaches are now much more pleasant than when first introduced. I prefer travelling in one of these to a Voyager/Meridian. Why not simply leave the 91/MK4's on the ECML and use the 800's currently lined up for the East Coast on Cross Country and MML where they can use their Bi-mode capabilities? I realise you would have to keep a small number of 800's on the ECML for the likes of Harrogate and Inverness but surely this is a good opportunity to offload/reform the Voyagers

I'd also add that comfort is a personal matter, in that I find the Voyagers more comfortable than the Mark 4's as there's more legroom.

 

[paul1609]

Out of interest what percentage of the MML north of Kettering has a line speed of over 100 mph? It's not a line I use that often.

 

[DJH1971]

Thats still on the card as far as i know.

Well, things have certainly gone quiet on that front.

 

[DackandBlecker]

What is inferior about the Class 385 (from a passenger perspective) compared to an IC225?

The Scottish Government/Transport Scotland says InterCity is better than what's there now
As the seats in the 385s aren't as good as those of the current stock* , I'd go with their expert opinion, and say the 385s are inferior to the IC225.

*subjective opinion.

 

[James James]

Often such InterCity stock accelerates like an EMU though, 91s being geared for 140+ mph are a bit sluggish to accelerate, slower than an HST to about 60 mph.

I will say I don't want to scrap them if possible, I like them (see my avatar!). Personally use on an electrified MML is one of the more sensible options in my view, if it becomes possible soon enough which I don' think it will.

I know we're in dreamland - but since the 91s would need some refurb anyway, regearing them might be an idea since they aren't even allowed up to 140. (For comparison, the 125mph capable Re460 seems to be pretty decent at accelerating 12 car double-deck trains, even if it's nowhere near as explosive as a Flirt - so I don't think you'd need to reduce the top usable speed to get good performance.)

And if more future electrification happens, such refurbished locos could be reused with e.g. the Mk5a.

And to increase capacity with the MK IV's, you could replace the DVT with new-build MK5a DT's (or use them as intermediate coaches for splitting trains).

 

[hexagon789]

I know we're in dreamland - but since the 91s would need some refurb anyway, regearing them might be an idea since they aren't even allowed up to 140. (For comparison, the 125mph capable Re460 seems to be pretty decent at accelerating 12 car double-deck trains, even if it's nowhere near as explosive as a Flirt - so I don't think you'd need to reduce the top usable speed to get good performance.)

Having looked at the technical data I think the gearing is designed for 240 km/h (about 150 mph, this being the original design speed). The Re460 also has 7,510 hp and can produce 8,180 for a short period which likely helps.

Quite possibly they may be worth retaining for Mk5s but arguably the 88 is more readily suited and the likelihood of the Mk5s running at 125 seems limited to me.

 

[Rail Blues]

Certainly not. Since other Scottish Inter-City services are getting HSTs, which some consider to be loco-hauled services, why should Edinburgh - Glasgow be stuck with an inferior EMU service?

It isn't an intercity service in the true sense, it is effectively a commuter route of 46 miles with a journey time of less that three quarters of an hour once EGIP is complete. The key issues are capacity and rapid acceleration between the numerous intermediate stops and heavy loadings in the peaks. End doors on the mk4s are completely unsuitable and sluggish acceleration of the 91s, along with wasted platform length caused by the loco and dvt render it completely unsuitable. A small fortune has been spent lengthening platforms at multiple stations to allow eight car running (a 91 plus dvt would push you back down to six carriages)

For the particular job in hand a brand new Emu is custom made for this role and for this particular role a class 91 is very much inferior /unsuitable.


Ps. As it goes I'm typing this on the Edinburgh - Glasgow stop.

 

[Rail Blues]

The Scottish Government/Transport Scotland says InterCity is better than what's there now
As the seats in the 385s aren't as good as those of the current stock* , I'd go with their expert opinion, and say the 385s are inferior to the IC225.

*subjective opinion.

That's in relation to the rolling stock currently running the services that the class43s will be running. It is a case of horses for courses, the 380 I am traveling on is far better suited to the Edinburgh Glasgow via Falkirk route than a class 91 or a 43.

Picking out a single subjective measure like seat comfiness in isolation as the sole determinant of quality is a total nonsense. The class 108s I rode on as a kid had great spring seats, by your flawed reckoning does that make them better than any train on the network?

 

[47802]

I don't understand what the problems are with the 91's/mk4's. The coaches are now much more pleasant than when first introduced. I prefer travelling in one of these to a Voyager/Meridian. Why not simply leave the 91/MK4's on the ECML and use the 800's currently lined up for the East Coast on Cross Country and MML where they can use their Bi-mode capabilities? I realise you would have to keep a small number of 800's on the ECML for the likes of Harrogate and Inverness but surely this is a good opportunity to offload/reform the Voyagers

The 800's offer more capacity and have better performance on electric for starters, added to which the 225 sets are approaching 30 years old. The 800's which replace the 91's are the electric only 801 variant and to use them on XC and MML you have to change them to the Bi-mode version for starters. The general consensus also seems to be that even the 802 variant operating in full power mode will not be good enough in Diesel mode to achieve the required specification of Bi-modes for the MML.

 

[swt_passenger]

Out of interest what percentage of the MML north of Kettering has a line speed of over 100 mph? It's not a line I use that often.

Quite a bit, but I wouldn’t like to guess an overall figure. Although it isn’t generally 125 mph, there are still a fair number of sections with HST differential speeds above 100, such as 110 or even 120.

There was a CP4 project to improve line speeds along the whole route, there were many short lengths that were increased by just the odd few mph, but every little helps...

 

[James James]

It isn't an intercity service in the true sense, it is effectively a commuter route of 46 miles with a journey time of less that three quarters of an hour once EGIP is complete. The key issues are capacity and rapid acceleration between the numerous intermediate stops and heavy loadings in the peaks. End doors on the mk4s are completely unsuitable and sluggish acceleration of the 91s, along with wasted platform length caused by the loco and dvt render it completely unsuitable. A small fortune has been spent lengthening platforms at multiple stations to allow eight car running (a 91 plus dvt would push you back down to six carriages)

For the particular job in hand a brand new Emu is custom made for this role and for this particular role a class 91 is very much inferior /unsuitable.


Ps. As it goes I'm typing this on the Edinburgh - Glasgow stop.

I disagree with end-doors being unsuitable. End-doors aren't suitable for trains stopping every 3 minutes, but above that they're perfectly fine. I travel on end-door trains operating very similar routes all the time (and the end-to-end passengers, who are the majority on many such trains, are happier for it). In fact, some would argue they are faster at boarding because people _have_ to move away from the doors with end-door boarding, whereasi with 1/3+2/3 boarding people inevitably try to stand close to the door, ending up causing blockages.

All the other factors do make sense though for that specific route. But with sufficient investment you could replace the DVT with a seated vehicle and refurb the loco, or even get 2 single-end-cabbed electric carriages to replace the DVT + loco. It's hard to tell if that would be cheaper than completely new EMU's, but there's certainly plenty of scope for reuse here. Other railways can do it, no reason the UK can't (except the incentives are completely different due to the half-a-billion ROSCOs and TOCs situation).

 

[Rhydgaled]

Ah that's the answer. For some reason I thought they were BImodes. I must stay awake and pay attention.

Mechanically/technically the class 801s are bi-modes, but because they only have one diesel engine their performance in diesel mode is so poor that operationally they are EMUs.

I know we're in dreamland - but since the 91s would need some refurb anyway, regearing them might be an idea since they aren't even allowed up to 140. (For comparison, the 125mph capable Re460 seems to be pretty decent at accelerating 12 car double-deck trains, even if it's nowhere near as explosive as a Flirt - so I don't think you'd need to reduce the top usable speed to get good performance.)

I wouldn't re-gear them; the southern ECML is near the top of the list for resignalling with ETCS I believe. One of my hopes with Virgin's plans to retain a number of "pocket-rocket" IC225 sets was that they would be fitted with ETCS and finally be allowed to run at 140mph before their eventual withdrawal sometime in the 2030s.

And if more future electrification happens, such refurbished locos could be reused with e.g. the Mk5a.

And to increase capacity with the MK IV's, you could replace the DVT with new-build MK5a DT's (or use them as intermediate coaches for splitting trains).

Quite possibly they may be worth retaining for Mk5s but arguably the 88 is more readily suited and the likelihood of the Mk5s running at 125 seems limited to me.

TPE did specify 125mph capability for their mark 5s, presumably with York-Newcastle-Edinburgh in mind. If work on TransPennine electrification was in full swing right now, then replacing the 68s with 91s once that project was complete could have made sense. Sadly with the 91s already being over 25 years old and electrification not being something that can be done overnight; the wires across the Pennines aren't likely to be up much before 2030 by which time you'd only be a few years off needing new 125mph electric locos to haul the mark 5s anyway, so TPE would probably just go straight for new locos. Sadly I think at least 10 of the class 91s are likely to be scrapped well before their 40th birthday; their 40th birthday being the date after which I would believe they could be life-expired. I just hope that a way to keep some sets on the ECML as Virgin had planned is found, along with the Blackpool open-access operation going ahead, to ensure that not all the fleet goes to an early grave. And for the love of Britian, and the love of railways, make sure both 91110 and 91131 are preserved.

The 800's offer more capacity and have better performance on electric for starters, added to which the 225 sets are approaching 30 years old. The 800's which replace the 91's are the electric only 801 variant and to use them on XC and MML you have to change them to the Bi-mode version for starters. The general consensus also seems to be that even the 802 variant operating in full power mode will not be good enough in Diesel mode to achieve the required specification of Bi-modes for the MML.

At the moment is that we are not sure whether the class 800s and 801s are able to utilise their full performance anyway due to the lack of an upgraded power supply north of Doncaster. In my opinion the East Coast TOC might as well keep using the IC225s on Edinburgh services at least. As for power requirements for a MML bi-mode, that depends on whether you are replacing Meridians or (as I think sensible) only EMT's IC125 fleet. In the latter case, while class 800s and 802s in their as-ordered formations might not 'cut the mustard', I think reforming part of the fleet into 8-car sets with six engine cars in each (meaning less engine cars in other sets, my prefered way of doing this being making the class 801s pure-electric with no diesel engine) would do the trick.

I disagree with end-doors being unsuitable. End-doors aren't suitable for trains stopping every 3 minutes, but above that they're perfectly fine. I travel on end-door trains operating very similar routes all the time (and the end-to-end passengers, who are the majority on many such trains, are happier for it). In fact, some would argue they are faster at boarding because people _have_ to move away from the doors with end-door boarding, whereasi with 1/3+2/3 boarding people inevitably try to stand close to the door, ending up causing blockages.

I wouldn't go as far as putting a number like '3 minutes' on it, but I agree with you that the increased dwell times caused by end doors are not the problem they are made out to be unless the train is making frequent stops at busy stations (rural halts like on the Heart Of Wales are not a problem due to few passengers bording/alighting).

 

[D365]

Mechanically/technically the class 801s are bi-modes, but because they only have one diesel engine their performance in diesel mode is so poor that operationally they are EMUs.

The diesel engine is clearly not for service operation. Why would they become a significant maintenance liability if they are to only be used sporadically?

Sadly I think at least 10 of the class 91s are likely to be scrapped well before their 40th birthday; their 40th birthday being the date after which I would believe they could be life-expired. I just hope that a way to keep some sets on the ECML as Virgin had planned is found, along with the Blackpool open-access operation going ahead, to ensure that not all the fleet goes to an early grave?

Changing the facts once again, it’s clearly stated that the Class 91 was built with a 30 year life expectancy.

 

[DackandBlecker]

That's in relation to the rolling stock currently running the services that the class43s will be running. It is a case of horses for courses, the 380 I am traveling on is far better suited to the Edinburgh Glasgow via Falkirk route than a class 91 or a 43.

Picking out a single subjective measure like seat comfiness in isolation as the sole determinant of quality is a total nonsense. The class 108s I rode on as a kid had great spring seats, by your flawed reckoning does that make them better than any train on the network?

The question was what is inferior. The seats, to me, are inferior.
I'll not disregard your opinion as total rubbish, that's uncalled for.

 

[transmanche]

Changing the facts once again, it’s clearly stated that the Class 91 was built with a 30 year life expectancy.

I did wonder what the original design life expectancy was. But a quick Google only revealed this from Rail magazine of 20 March 2013.

What does the future have in store for the ‘91s’? It seems inconceivable that should they be displaced by Intercity Express Project trains, they would be scrapped.

With plans for more routes to be electrified, and freight operators being encouraged to use electric traction, then a fleet of electrics capable of 6,000hp could be available, perhaps on the Midland Main Line. Whatever the case, the ‘91s’ seem certain to survive beyond their planned 35-year career.

(My bold.)

 

[Rhydgaled]

Changing the facts once again, it’s clearly stated that the Class 91 was built with a 30 year life expectancy.

Clearly stated where? I cannot recall ever reading that anywhere; from reading the forums and 'Modern Railways' I have formed a 'mental yardstick' that the life expectancy of a DMU or diesel locomotive is 30 years but for an EMU, electric loco or loco-hauled coach it is 40 years.

The closest I have to an 'official source' is a 1981 BR report on electrification (which could have seen the Midland Main Line wired before I was born and Penzance by 2003). That gives a standard working life for 'existing vehicles' as follows:

• HST power car: 25 years
• Electric locomotive: 35 years
• Diesel locomotive: 25-30 years
• hauled coach (including HST mark 3s): 30-40 years
• EMU: 40 years
• DMU: 25 years

That mostly correlates with my 'mental yardstick'. Yes the electric locomotive is given 35 years rather than the 40 I gave it, but that would still take the class 91s to 2025. And the general theme that electrics last longer than diesels is supported by that BR report, and the class 43s have outlived their 25 year expectancy by some margin, so 40 years for the class 91s doesn't look like much of a stretch to me. For more-recent 'evidence', I seem to recall reading that one of the new EMU orders (possibly Merseyrail's) placed since the IEP had a similar maintainance arangement (no train = no pay) to IEP but a near-40yr contract term versus 27 for the (diesel-fitted) IEP.

 

[The Ham]

. And the general theme that electrics last longer than diesels is supported by that BR report, and the class 43s have outlived their 25 year expectancy by some margin, so 40 years for the class 91s doesn't look like much of a stretch to me.

Didn't the 43's get new engines, as such wouldn't that have reset the clock, although probably some time after the 25 years?

 

[Domh245]

Didn't the 43's get new engines, as such wouldn't that have reset the clock, although probably some time after the 25 years?

The bulk of the fleet were indeed reengined between 2006 and 2008 - and a handful before and afterwards, at ages of between 33 and 24 years (43084 and 43198 respectively) which like you said will have near enough reset the clock on them.

It is also worth noting that the IC225s are diagrammed far more intensively than they used to be, which will not help to prolong their lifespan.

 

[D365]

This is the best reference I could find in the public domain:

In all, 31 locomotives and 303 coaches were built by GEC Electric Metro-Cammell (now owned by Alstom) between 1987 and 1990. The first was brought into service in 1989 by GNER. Each piece of rolling stock cost between £700,000 and £1m, and would be expected to travel up to 1,000 miles every day at average speeds of 100mph for 30 years.

If they were quoted as having a 30 year lifespan in 2000, and are being used more intensively now, how is their lifespan going to see any sort of improvement?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is the best reference I could find in the public domain:
If they were quoted as having a 30 year lifespan in 2000, and are being used more intensively now, how is their lifespan going to see any sort of improvement?

Power electronics have moved on since the 91s were introduced.
Whatever physical lifespan might have been envisaged, they are obsolescent and maintenance will be increasingly costly and problematic.
New build is also now a more economic proposition, hence the pensioning off of otherwise worthy fleets of 30-year-old EMUs for new.
If the 91s can find a niche to continue in operation then fine, but I doubt the ROSCO is going to spend large sums of money on them for a different role.
30 years is often only an accountant's rule of thumb to calculate depreciation.
Actual longevity varies a great deal - plenty of locos haven't made it to even 15 years (eg the diesel hydraulics).

 

[Domh245]

If they were quoted as having a 30 year lifespan in 2000, and are being used more intensively now, how is their lifespan going to see any sort of improvement?

Of course if we try and fit a trend line to the two data points we've got (35 years in 1981, 30 in 2000) they should be down to a 25 year lifespan by now if linearly extrapolated, and so the last one should have been withdrawn from service 2 years ago! :P

 

[YorkshireBear]

Being a smaller fleet size will always reduce their reliability in later years with much reduced spares and less general maintenance knowledge. Relevant when comparing 91s and HSTs in an industry wide sense.

 

[kje7812]

As per the Keolis/Amey Wales thread, it seems that 12 Mark 4's are going to the new Wales & Borders franchise.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As per the Keolis/Amey Wales thread, it seems that 12 Mark 4's are going to the new Wales & Borders franchise.

That's 12 vehicles, not 12 sets (plus 3xDVTs probably).
Will not make much of a dent in the LNER fleet.

 

[Rail Blues]

That's a set and a half accounted for.

 

[Indigo Soup]

TPE did specify 125mph capability for their mark 5s, presumably with York-Newcastle-Edinburgh in mind. If work on TransPennine electrification was in full swing right now, then replacing the 68s with 91s once that project was complete could have made sense. Sadly with the 91s already being over 25 years old and electrification not being something that can be done overnight; the wires across the Pennines aren't likely to be up much before 2030 by which time you'd only be a few years off needing new 125mph electric locos to haul the mark 5s anyway, so TPE would probably just go straight for new locos. Sadly I think at least 10 of the class 91s are likely to be scrapped well before their 40th birthday; their 40th birthday being the date after which I would believe they could be life-expired. I just hope that a way to keep some sets on the ECML as Virgin had planned is found, along with the Blackpool open-access operation going ahead, to ensure that not all the fleet goes to an early grave. And for the love of Britian, and the love of railways, make sure both 91110 and 91131 are preserved.

Of course, TPE are getting a dozen 397s for Liverpool & Manchester to Scotland, and nineteen AT300s for Liverpool-Leeds-Edinburgh. Which makes 31 trains that will spend most of their time on the high speed East Coast and West Coast routes.

There are (well, were) 31 Class 91s and matching rakes of stock designed to operate at high speed on the East Coast and West Coast routes. See where I'm going with this?

Nah, you'd have to electrify a busy, steeply-graded main line connecting the second and fourth largest, and most economically significant, urban areas in the United Kingdom to make that work. That's clearly not a sensible use of public funds.

 

[cactustwirly]

Didn't the 43's get new engines, as such wouldn't that have reset the clock, although probably some time after the 25 years?

No it would have only extended the lifecycle, re-engining doesn't address stuff like corrosion or parts availability.

 

[The Ham]

No it would have only extended the lifecycle, re-engining doesn't address stuff like corrosion or parts availability.

I'd have thought that corrosion would be equal (almost) regardless of the fuel type. Parts could be a bit of an issue, however a lot of the critical parts would likely be associated with the engine. Yes, there could still be a limit but given that we're talking about 25 years for a HST and 40 years for an EMU by putting a new engine into a HST should get it to 40 years with potential for it to go a bit beyond that (so maybe an extra 15 to 20 years rather than the "full further 25 years").

 

[WAB]

And for the love of Britian, and the love of railways, make sure both 91110 and 91131 are preserved.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the significance of 91131?

 

[mallard]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the significance of 91131?

It holds the record for the fastest run along the complete ECML (London - Edinburgh), completing it in 3hrs 29min 30sec at an average speed of 112.5mph and reaching 140mph "several times" (numbers from Wikipedia).

Were it the case that the ECML 140mph plan reached fruition and the Flying Scotsman service remained non-stop, times like that could potentially have been achieved on a daily basis...