Northern's Problems in the North West

[jayah]

Only passing on what I've heard but I imagine she is responsible for failing to have enough drivers at them depots (if that is indeed a proven reason for the issues) and for failing to have a proper plan in place for driver training that doesn't rely on RDW.

You can't carry headcount for training programmes that come along every few years. You need the flexibility to grow and shrink the productivity according to short term events, but with these 7hr days and RDW bans it isn't possible.

 

[B&I]

I think it would be retrograde, indeed, if a service such as Leeds to Blackpool were to be split into two/three individual services. (Yes, I know it's split at Preston at the moment, but, hopefully, that situation won't prevail for too long).
But a Leeds-based crew could work to Blackburn (an hour and a half's running, approximately), wait for the return train (40+ minutes), and take it back to Leeds. That would, in total, be a comfortable half a shift, I imagine.
If that looks to be inefficient, I would say that it's necessary to have a little slack in a duty, as has been proved time and again just recently. The crew continuing to Blackpool wouldn't necessarily make it more efficient.
As to Buxton crews, I don't see why they need to know Blackpool, when everyone else is trained there will be more than enough crews qualified to work the route. That is, crews from Manchester (not all rotas), Liverpool, Wigan, Blackburn, and Blackpool.

Where you have something like Blackpool-Leeds, which has few other services crossing its route (at least west of Hebden Bridge), the need to maintain through routes is greater. I don't see it as as much of an issue with servuces across Manchester, if quick and easy changes are in fact available, and if the alternative is chronic problems with line capacity and staffing

 

[jayah]

Don't be daft. ASLEF are in fact doing this as part of a conspiracy to damage their own members' earning potential, and to provoke renationalisation

Back in the real world, the main ASLEF objection to RDW seems to be £££.

If there is a fatigue index then it sounds perfectly straightforward for the company to make sure the shifts worked comply with it without collectively bargaining over the right to work any RD.

 

[jayah]

Where you have something like Blackpool-Leeds, which has few other services crossing its route (at least west of Hebden Bridge), the need to maintain through routes is greater. I don't see it as as much of an issue with servuces across Manchester, if quick and easy changes are in fact available, and if the alternative is chronic problems with line capacity and staffing

Anything that involves crew changing trains on route is a recipe for delays. You need long inefficient breaks at the changeover to make it work. The best way if possible is to have the crew stay with the same train. But this doesn't work when you have crazy long distance stopping services over 3hr that are really 3 local trains merged together.

 

[158756]

Anything that involves crew changing trains on route is a recipe for delays. You need long inefficient breaks at the changeover to make it work. The best way if possible is to have the crew stay with the same train. But this doesn't work when you have crazy long distance stopping services over 3hr that are really 3 local trains merged together.

As far as I'm aware, such routings mostly exist around Manchester. But where is the terminus capacity to split them up? Haven't they been trying to get terminating trains out of Victoria because there isn't room, and Piccadilly's through platforms are no good.

 

[tbtc]

What has physically erecting masts got to do with a government department?

Why are Public Sector Network Rail erecting masts, if you don't think that any bit of Government are responsible then?

This is not in fact what I was saying. I did not bring renationalisation into the debate

You said "If anyone is doing anything to wreck franchising and push the cause for renationalisation, it is the TOCs and the DfT"

Well, there's one train an hour between Victoria and Wigan today, and they can't even manage that

Really?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S43884/2018/06/02/advanced

There are regular trains from Manchester Victoria to Wigan Wallgate and regular trains from Manchester Piccadilly to Wigan North Western.

But this is what I keep banging on about - the muddle of services, so that (when the timetables are working properly) you have Piccadilly - Wallgate, Piccadilly - North Western and Victoria - Wallgate - which makes the timetable very fragile as any disruption is hard to contain across three separate routes. If we had all Wigan services running from (say) Piccadilly then that would make things much more resilient when things go wrong (with plenty of scope for changing at Salford Central/ Oxford Road for passengers who absolutely must travel to Victoria).

Instead, we have a muddle where a Wiganer doesn't know which station in Manchester to head to when trying to get home, since services are awkwardly split between them.

 

[driver_m]

The amount of productive time on 8.75hr might be double for 7hr. I also suspect Union power is behind the fact Northern clearly have the wrong numbers of staff at their various depots and would benefit from the flexibility to say Depot 1 will not go to Station 2 and 5 drivers at Depot 3 are relocating to Depot 4

What are you going on about? They're not coming from East Anglia. We're talking about one region within England. Anything else you want to suspect unions about? Poisoning the water supply by lacing it with chemicals that make you more left wing? Insisting on installing staff only couches in the new sleepers so that you can literally say there are 'reds in the bed'? If a company wants more staff at a location, they simply just have to take them on if they need them at a location, seeing as there are usually matrixs for the complement a depot should have based on its workload.

 

[muz379]

The amount of productive time on 8.75hr might be double for 7hr. I also suspect Union power is behind the fact Northern clearly have the wrong numbers of staff at their various depots and would benefit from the flexibility to say Depot 1 will not go to Station 2 and 5 drivers at Depot 3 are relocating to Depot 4

You have yet to substantiate the hearsay about 7 hour training days . At the depots I know of drivers released for road learning and traction training do so on their booked hours . So if they where supposed to work a 9 hr day they are expected to road learn for the same amount . The only 7 hour training days I know of and have seen are when the training is done using RDW . There might be local agreements or informal practices at other depots . But those could be gotten rid of with the will of management .

As for inflexibility , The company can say which depots work which routes . Relocation however cannot just be done in the fashion you suggest . But then that would be the same for many people in the world of work . I am sure you would rightly want a say if your company decided you suddenly worked at a totally different location . There is not really much evidence however that relocation of drivers is necessary to solve any of the problems . The depots that are under compliment will have new drivers recruited or existing drivers voluntarily transfer and a new driver recruited for their old depot . Even if you relocated a number of drivers , they would still have to learn the routes and traction of their new depot .

If there is a fatigue index then it sounds perfectly straightforward for the company to make sure the shifts worked comply with it without collectively bargaining over the right to work any RD.

"if there is a fatigue index" . This comment clearly shows that you have no idea what you are going on about . There is a fatigue index , this is a fact that is just frankly beyond dispute .

I personally do think that it is in the best interests that you only comment when you actually are in posession of the relevant knowledge to do so . You are frankly embarrassing yourself here .

I have no problem with people having an anti union standpoint . But come on at least try and keep to the facts

 

[yorksrob]

Why are Public Sector Network Rail erecting masts, if you don't think that any bit of Government are responsible then?



You said "If anyone is doing anything to wreck franchising and push the cause for renationalisation, it is the TOCs and the DfT"



Really?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S43884/2018/06/02/advanced

There are regular trains from Manchester Victoria to Wigan Wallgate and regular trains from Manchester Piccadilly to Wigan North Western.

But this is what I keep banging on about - the muddle of services, so that (when the timetables are working properly) you have Piccadilly - Wallgate, Piccadilly - North Western and Victoria - Wallgate - which makes the timetable very fragile as any disruption is hard to contain across three separate routes. If we had all Wigan services running from (say) Piccadilly then that would make things much more resilient when things go wrong (with plenty of scope for changing at Salford Central/ Oxford Road for passengers who absolutely must travel to Victoria).

Instead, we have a muddle where a Wiganer doesn't know which station in Manchester to head to when trying to get home, since services are awkwardly split between them.

Yes really. They're not running.

I've been at Victoria and Piccadilly waiting for phantom trains, not looking at the internet.

 

[158756]

In any event, no matter what you think and post on here, there are no plans to close any rail line.

And don't we know it. If anyone thought their business or job might be at risk maybe they'd pull their finger out.

 

[josh-j]

Not sure what you mean? the timetable that appears when I click the Airport link gives the dates as 4 - 8 June - is that an *old* version which needs to be updated or is it the actual planned service?

I just mean that if you go to a station information page such as https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/stations/ACR it doesn't necessarily show you the amended timetables until you click the button. Maybe it depends whether you've already been on the page and selected the "New timetables" button though as when I went to it just now it did indeed show the new amended timetables straight away - but the first time it showed me the old ("non-emergency") ones.

 

[B&I]

Yes really. They're not running.

I've been at Victoria and Piccadilly waiting for phantom trains, not looking at the internet.

Remember: actual reality, as experienced by people on trains, at stations etc attempting to use the railways, does not exist. The truth is revealed only to participants on a railway forum who, having seen something written on the internet by a TOC, know, with the force of religious belief, That It Shall Be So.

 

[td97]

Yes really. They're not running.

I've been at Victoria and Piccadilly waiting for phantom trains, not looking at the internet.

Not unique to this problem, it's been weekend RRB for Bolton and Atherton lines for months on end now.
Chat Moss trains are still running

It does appear that the combination of line closures for Bolton & Atherton, and the Lime Street closure has slightly improved their performance today.

 

[B&I]

You said "If anyone is doing anything to wreck franchising and push the cause for renationalisation, it is the TOCs and the DfT"

Isn't a bit of quotation out of context wonderful ?

Perhaps if you read back through the exchange between Jayah and me into which you interposed yourself (painful, I know, but stick with it), you will see that I was responding to his suggestion that the current collapse of much of Northern's service stemmed from a union plot to trigger renationalisation. As well as pointing out the obviousness of this nonsense, I was also questionning why he was bringing nationalisation into the debate about Northern's current performance.

Still, why let what someone actually said get in the way of what you wanted them to have said, so you could use it as an excuse to attack what you think their opinion was ?

 

[Robertj21a]

You have clearly never suffered from motion sickness (or paid attention to any of the descriptions or research on it - or are just ignoring other people's problems.) I suggest you read the Wikipedia entry, but if you can't be bothered, here is a quote: (my bold) so your advice to read a book on a bus would be pretty unhelpful, but I suspect that sufferers will be better informed than you are anyway.
A train journey generally is smooth and doesn't wriggle around en route, which is why people are prepared to pay more to go by train. A bus journey calling at all stations invariably involves a lot more vibration plus lots of turns in and out of small streets and, to add insult to injury, still costs you the train fare!

No need to go in to rant mode. All you mentioned previously was '.....If you are prone to travel sickness it will put you off'. Even your comments above are in the third person so I still have no idea if it's you or somebody else you are talking about. In any event, travel sickness can occur in many people in different forms, just because your example uses buses doesn't mean that others are similarly affected.

 

[yorksrob]

Remember: actual reality, as experienced by people on trains, at stations etc attempting to use the railways, does not exist. The truth is revealed only to participants on a railway forum who, having seen something written on the internet by a TOC, know, with the force of religious belief, That It Shall Be So.

Indeed. Had I the full information, I could have made alternative arrangements.

 

[yorksrob]

Not unique to this problem, it's been weekend RRB for Bolton and Atherton lines for months on end now.
Chat Moss trains are still running

It does appear that the combination of line closures for Bolton & Atherton, and the Lime Street closure has slightly improved their performance today.

Yes, I was planning on getting a train via this way, but the one at Vic was cancelled, went to Pic and was told none of them were running. Spent about 2 hours on a bus now.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Why are Public Sector Network Rail erecting masts, if you don't think that any bit of Government are responsible then?

Simply pathetic. Are you Tony Miles in disguise?

 

[Howardh]

Yes, I was planning on getting a train via this way, but the one at Vic was cancelled, went to Pic and was told none of them were running. Spent about 2 hours on a bus now.

Quick glance at Oxford Road departures - at time of looking (1420) it shows the next ten trains, one is cancelled, two are running late (so far by less than 8 minutes) and the rest are as scheduled. Could be argued that it's better than a normal Saturday!
Of course with the Bolton line closure there aren't as many trains going through to clog the system up!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quick glance at Oxford Road departures - at time of looking (1420) it shows the next ten trains, one is cancelled, two are running late (so far by less than 8 minutes) and the rest are as scheduled. Could be argued that it's better than a normal Saturday!
Of course with the Bolton line closure there aren't as many trains going through to clog the system up!!

There is a lesson there I believe.

 

[B&I]

No need to go in to rant mode. All you mentioned previously was '.....If you are prone to travel sickness it will put you off'. Even your comments above are in the third person so I still have no idea if it's you or somebody else you are talking about. In any event, travel sickness can occur in many people in different forms, just because your example uses buses doesn't mean that others are similarly affected.

Idiopathic motion sickness, that well-known condition.

If buses are so adequate a substitute for trains, why do you ever travel by train anywhere ?

 

[B&I]

Indeed. Had I the full information, I could have made alternative arrangements.

I've been lucky today that I haven't received any bum steers from National Rail Enquiries. But I have wondered how accurate the info being supplied online is, when the system as a whole is in such chaos

 

[chorleyjeff]

Anything that involves crew changing trains on route is a recipe for delays. You need long inefficient breaks at the changeover to make it work. The best way if possible is to have the crew stay with the same train. But this doesn't work when you have crazy long distance stopping services over 3hr that are really 3 local trains merged together.

As Mrs T said. "Bring me solutions, not problems", or words roughly meaning the same.
What do you suggest ? Always bearing in mind that the passengers do matter.

 

[Howardh]

There is a lesson there I believe.

If anyone suggests close down Bolton permanently I can't find an argument against!! As long as the whole ruddy town is closed down and not just the line!!

And, yes, I was born and live in...you guessed it.

 

[R Trevithick]

The responsibility of Aslef is to its members - not to the dft, the company or even to the travelling public.

There is no rest day working at northern because the company continually abused the previous agreement and broke many many other agreements.

Training days on the West side of northern are 7 hours. If you are taken off your job for any training (incl road learning) it is 7 hours.

This particularly affects road learning for Vic men on the chesters as they can’t get 2 trips in whereas Picc men can.

 

[Robertj21a]

Idiopathic motion sickness, that well-known condition.

If buses are so adequate a substitute for trains, why do you ever travel by train anywhere ?

Where did I suggest anything like that ? . More crazy postings from someone intent on posting more times than anyone else.

 

[jayah]

You have yet to substantiate the hearsay about 7 hour training days . At the depots I know of drivers released for road learning and traction training do so on their booked hours . So if they where supposed to work a 9 hr day they are expected to road learn for the same amount . The only 7 hour training days I know of and have seen are when the training is done using RDW . There might be local agreements or informal practices at other depots . But those could be gotten rid of with the will of management .

As for inflexibility , The company can say which depots work which routes . Relocation however cannot just be done in the fashion you suggest . But then that would be the same for many people in the world of work . I am sure you would rightly want a say if your company decided you suddenly worked at a totally different location . There is not really much evidence however that relocation of drivers is necessary to solve any of the problems . The depots that are under compliment will have new drivers recruited or existing drivers voluntarily transfer and a new driver recruited for their old depot . Even if you relocated a number of drivers , they would still have to learn the routes and traction of their new depot .

"if there is a fatigue index" . This comment clearly shows that you have no idea what you are going on about . There is a fatigue index , this is a fact that is just frankly beyond dispute .

I personally do think that it is in the best interests that you only comment when you actually are in posession of the relevant knowledge to do so . You are frankly embarrassing yourself here .

I have no problem with people having an anti union standpoint . But come on at least try and keep to the facts

I suggest you take that up with the person who posted about 7hr on this message board. Which depots are you familiar with? This sounds like politician speak for talking about something that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

As there is a fatigue index there is no reason for ASLEF to think it needs to micromanage individual traincrew fatigue. That is the employers job.

Despite various insults you have failed to make any substantive points - you are sadly another example of someone inside the railway who thinks nobody else outside has a right to an opinion on it.

Were the railways North and South not in a state of total chaos you might have a point, but again we see an operation failing and the people operating it demonstrating open hostility to anyone who isn't in the tent.

 

[jayah]

The responsibility of Aslef is to its members - not to the dft, the company or even to the travelling public.

There is no rest day working at northern because the company continually abused the previous agreement and broke many many other agreements.

Training days on the West side of northern are 7 hours. If you are taken off your job for any training (incl road learning) it is 7 hours.

This particularly affects road learning for Vic men on the chesters as they can’t get 2 trips in whereas Picc men can.

So my point stands ASLEF has too much power and also has many of the local politicians in its pocket.

In what way did Northern abuse their very well paid staff by working more than 4 days a week?

 

[jayah]

What are you going on about? They're not coming from East Anglia. We're talking about one region within England. Anything else you want to suspect unions about? Poisoning the water supply by lacing it with chemicals that make you more left wing? Insisting on installing staff only couches in the new sleepers so that you can literally say there are 'reds in the bed'? If a company wants more staff at a location, they simply just have to take them on if they need them at a location, seeing as there are usually matrixs for the complement a depot should have based on its workload.

I don't know if you realise how much of a 7hr shift is taken getting from Leeds to Preston and back?

I wasn't talking about simply adding more staff at a location, I am talking about moving them from one to another. I bet there is a great bureaucracy involved there given some of their other terms. That is why I suspect you end up with the routes eg. Buxton signing Blackpool apparently fitting round the headcount and not the other way round.

 

[Bovverboy]

yorksrob said: ↑
Well, there's one train an hour between Victoria and Wigan today, and they can't even manage that

Really?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S43884/2018/06/02/advanced

There are regular trains from Manchester Victoria to Wigan Wallgate and regular trains from Manchester Piccadilly to Wigan North Western.

Yorksrob has a point. Because of the ongoing electrification works, there's only one train per hour scheduled to operate between Manchester Victoria and Wigan Wallgate, instead of the usual three (I think). Other than that, there's only replacement buses.
But one round trip has missed - 1018 Southport - Vic terminated at Wigan Wallgate, 1136 Vic - Southport cancelled completely, 1311 Southport - Vic cancelled to Wigan Wallgate.
Yes, there is also the Manchester Airport to Blackpool service, but three northbound journeys on that have missed today so far.

Yorksrob seems to be saying that it's already a significantly reduced service today, but it still isn't being maintained.