Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[mde]

Timetables up: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/temporary-timetables

Windermere bus replacement for all services. Stalybridge-Manchester hourly off peak. Blackpool South, Colne, Ormskirk, Morecambe, Kirkby have random journeys replaced by buses. Blackpool - Manchester some fast services cancelled, not sure what else. And over in East Lancs we get random bits of the hourly Manchester service cancelled with no bus replacement.

Can't wait to see their plan for ensuring those buses are accessible to PRMs… I suspect there isn't one.

 

[Chester1]

Can't wait to see their plan for ensuring those buses are accessible to PRMs… I suspect there isn't one.

I hope temporary doesn't mean 2020!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't wait to see their plan for ensuring those buses are accessible to PRMs… I suspect there isn't one.

Free taxis, I expect. This is probably sensible, really, as for luggage related reasons low-floor buses are not suitable.

 

[mde]

Free taxis, I expect. This is probably sensible, really, as for luggage related reasons low-floor buses are not suitable.

Hate to say it, but, the equality act doesn't apply to luggage - those rail replacement taxis tend not to be the most reliable beasts, and, aren't necessarily the most suitable for some wheelchair users if they have more complex needs. Failing to provide something that might be adequate is not really acceptable for planned bustitution.

If the right coach is hired it will have at least one wheelchair space (see for example the Caetano Levante's used by NX and Scottish CityLink, but, Plaxton do their own as well) while still retaining the luggage bay. The dwell time is about two minutes longer than the station ramps, but, the comfort is much better than a taxi.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Timetables up: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/temporary-timetables

Windermere bus replacement for all services. Stalybridge-Manchester hourly off peak. Blackpool South, Colne, Ormskirk, Morecambe, Kirkby have random journeys replaced by buses. Blackpool - Manchester some fast services cancelled, not sure what else. And over in East Lancs we get random bits of the hourly Manchester service cancelled with no bus replacement.

Sounds like Northern are doing the only thing they can sensibly do at such short notice, take out individual crew diagrams. You get haphazard gaps in odd places but it reduces the immediate strain and the last thing you want/need at this point is any kind of wholesale re-write. Presumably as more crew become available and overall performance improves, these will be reintroduced?

 

[jfollows]

Thanks to this forum I understand what's happening: the Northern statement that "we are removing all services on the Lakes Line" completely baffled me, is it just me? Thanks to the forum I realise it means "the line from Oxenholme to Windermere" but why didn't it just say that? I've never heard of the "Lakes Line"!

 

[AndrewE]

Sounds like Northern are doing the only thing they can sensibly do at such short notice, take out individual crew diagrams. You get haphazard gaps in odd places but it reduces the immediate strain and the last thing you want/need at this point is any kind of wholesale re-write. Presumably as more crew become available and overall performance improves, these will be reintroduced?

I disagree. From the users' point of view we need a relatively regular-interval skeleton timetable that will run, and traincrew diagrams re-written around that service. Just cancelling trains (or terminating short) because of a staff member missing is a recipe for disaster. Completely unpredictable and hence unuseable.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I disagree. From the users' point of view we need a relatively regular-interval skeleton timetable that will run, and traincrew diagrams re-written around that service. Just cancelling trains (or terminating short) because of a staff member missing is a recipe for disaster. Completely unpredictable and hence unuseable.

The problem with a rewrite is that it doesn’t align with the legally binding ‘linking’ dates for the staff rostering process. You can’t legally just change everyone’s booking on / off hours at a whim. It is exactly this problem that has created much of the Thameslink problems down south, as the base crew diagrams aren’t naturally covered by the working hours of the crew. Once they get past the next re-linking date, I guarantee matters will settle down. At Northern it is more complicated due to structural defects in the timetable itself, but believe me, a crew diagram rewrite now will only make matters worse. Particularly worse in fact, because of the rest-day working ban - increased overtime would be the only cushion to make such a rewrite work in practice, and there is no agreement to do so. (Catch net removed in advance, so you can’t afford to fall off the trapeze!)

 

[tbtc]

On the WCML and GWML (and probably other main lines) there is a well-developed "Plan B" at times of major disruption.
Things like cancelling the Tring terminators, the WLL service, one each of the 3 VTs to Birmingham/Manchester.
The GWML thins out services, with remaining trains calling at all main stations.
WMT turn one of the Birmingham-Liverpools at Crewe, etc, etc.
It seems clear that Northern and TPE don't have such an emergency timetable, or they would have implemented it.
Something like reducing 2tph to 1tph throughout the system, or turning certain routes short with remaining trains filling in.
Seems a glaring omission to have to go for random cancellations rather than switch to a planned lower frequency throughout.
The impression I get is that Northern's scheduling of services (stock and crews) is so complex and interdependent it cannot be unpicked in this way.

As discussed on one of the (many!) other threads about the changes/ problems in the north of England, the service patterns in the north west are to blame.

For example, before the changes, you had two trains an hour from Blackpool to Manchester and two trains an hour from Southport to Manchester. But instead of a simple half hourly service on both routes (which would therefore cope with disruption and be relatively simple to reduce to hourly) both Blackpool and Southport had one train per hour to Manchester Airport (via Piccadilly) and one train per hour to Victoria. Same with the Eccles line (some services to Pic, some to Vic).

Unfortunately the new franchise continues this complicated set up - e.g. the Calder Valley is to have an hourly Southport service, an hourly Chester service and an hourly Manchester Airport service. If all Calder Valley trains ran through to Wigan/ Southport then it'd be simpler to reduce the frequency and drop one or two trains per hour.

Nine trains per hour from Piccadilly to the Airport but a *seventeen* minute gap each hour between xx:33 and xx:50 because the nine trains are all from different places so are badly split apart.

When you have a simple half hourly service (as West Yorkshire does on most routes), going down to hourly can be acceptable. But when you have lots of separate hourly services, reducing them to every two hours will create some huge gaps.

But, in fairness to Northern, the paymasters want to have lots of direct hourly services, everywhere wants a direct Piccadilly service (rather than half hourly to Victoria), MPs and Councillors will demand a direct Airport train, there's people wanting various cross-Manchester services (e.g. Stockport to Bolton). So the whole timetable ends up in a giant mess where a butterfly flapping its wings in Southport can mean delays at Alderley Edge for the rest of the day.

About the only bit working reasonably well seems to have been the lines to Glossop/ New Mills/ Marple, which are relatively self contained short/ simple/ half hourly services (with the exception of the bi-hourly extension to the Hope Valley) - so somewhere like Rose Hill Marple has an easy reliable service to Piccadilly every half hour, instead of having two badly-split hourly services just so that there's a direct train through to somewhere on the other side of Manchester. Keep It Simple...

 

[AndrewE]

The problem with a rewrite is that it doesn’t align with the legally binding ‘linking’ dates for the staff rostering process. You can’t legally just change everyone’s booking on / off hours at a whim. It is exactly this problem that has created much of the Thameslink problems down south, as the base crew diagrams aren’t naturally covered by the working hours of the crew. Once they get past the next re-linking date, I guarantee matters will settle down. At Northern it is more complicated due to structural defects in the timetable itself, but believe me, a crew diagram rewrite now will only make matters worse. Particularly worse in fact, because of the rest-day working ban - increased overtime would be the only cushion to make such a rewrite work in practice, and there is no agreement to do so. (Catch net removed in advance, so you can’t afford to fall off the trapeze!)

That doesn't seem to match up with this comment in another related thread:https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-rails-problems-in-lancashire.163590/page-42

the emergency timetable means Northern can amend or cancel any jobs.
Once a job is amended the driver can then be moved 60 mins either way from their booked start times and be made to work up to 60 mins longer than their booked shift for the day (with a max total enforced overtime of 3hr 30 per week). If job is fully cancelled rather than amended by Northern you can be moved 90 mins and have to work up to 90 mins extra.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

That is true, but normally drivers aren’t obliged to pick up the amended turns. It varies from operator to operator, depending on the terms and conditions.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Fantastic post. I dont know why we are giving people direct services to both stations. You don't hear commutters from tring insisting on a service to kings cross. I think intergrating the tram network better into heavy rail, ticketing wise anyway, would help. East Manchester not suffering as the service pattern is sensible. Except obviously diggle line...

 

[AndrewE]

That is true, but normally drivers aren’t obliged to pick up the amended turns. It varies from operator to operator, depending on the terms and conditions.

So what? This isn't normal, we hope to have an emergency timetable implemented and we are told (presumably by someone who knows)

"the emergency timetable means Northern can amend or cancel any jobs."

Just give us back a useable railway, please.

 

[BenBru]

Just on the Stockport-Stalybridge service....I understood this to be moving to Saturdays but can see no reference to it on Realtime Trains. I checked with the Network Rail timetable Table 78A and can see that it offers "No Saturday or Sunday Service" and no service beyond Denton during the week either. Northen Rail have it on their map but not on their station finder.

Have they given up even running the token service between Stockport and Stalybridge?

 

[northernchris]

I've noticed some odd paths with the new timetable, one in particular the 06:16 from Guiseley into Leeds (06:02 from Ilkley) that is now my regular commute. It approaches Leeds West towards signal C at the western throat, but then uses the last crossover to approach signal B to enter into P6. However as the service is now booked for a 321/322 it makes up a bit of time so the 06:30 arrival actually translates more as around 06:27, which means it trips over the 06:26 for Skipton leaving P4. But better still the 06:23 to Harrogate seems to be quite regularly late as it is part of an ECS move into P9 which also brings in the 06:18 to Knottingley & 06:32 to York at the same time. So it is already common for the incoming Ilkley to be sitting outside for 4-5 minutes as the two conflicting moves get out of the way. However if the services was pathed towards signal A & P1 as previously, there would only be one possible conflict.

Its nothing compared to the issues in the N/W, but slightly annoying as if it came in one time I usually have just enough time to bomb across to City Square to pick up a number 4 to save me walking across Leeds (lazy I know!). But it does lend itself to the thought that the paths offered up by NR aren't the best.

Absolutely! Although West Yorkshire has seen a decrease in performance it is nowhere near as bad as the North West! However the way some of the paths have been designed are adding to the problems with conflicting moves

 

[Bovverboy]

Just on the Stockport-Stalybridge service....I understood this to be moving to Saturdays but can see no reference to it on Realtime Trains. I checked with the Network Rail timetable Table 78A and can see that it offers "No Saturday or Sunday Service" and no service beyond Denton during the week either. Northen Rail have it on their map but not on their station finder.

Have they given up even running the token service between Stockport and Stalybridge?

It didn't operate on Saturday 26/5 because of the RMT industrial action, so it hasn't operated at all to the new times yet, but it's coming up okay for me on RTT, Saturdays 2/6/18 onwards. 0846 Stalybridge - Stockport, 0945 Stockport - Stalybridge.

 

[BenBru]

Silly me! Must have been a glitch -- couldn't find it. Odd that the current NR timetable omits it.

 

[Camden]

Were Northern expecting the proposed May 2018 timetable to be altered that meant they withdrew Liverpool hiring plans?

I recall the Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street via Manchester Airport was only Crewe to Wigan North Western via the Airport.

I wouldn't have thought so. It has been very clear for some time that any improvements to services out of Liverpool were going to be negligible at best. But the fact remains that Northern regularly cancel services out of Lime Street and were doing so before the timetable change, due to a shortage of drivers.

 

[Bovverboy]

Silly me! Must have been a glitch -- couldn't find it. Odd that the current NR timetable omits it.

From the link you provided it looks as though table 78A also omits the 0604, 0710, and 1809 (all SSuX) Guide Bridge - Stalybridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

About the only bit working reasonably well seems to have been the lines to Glossop/ New Mills/ Marple, which are relatively self contained short/ simple/ half hourly services (with the exception of the bi-hourly extension to the Hope Valley) - so somewhere like Rose Hill Marple has an easy reliable service to Piccadilly every half hour, instead of having two badly-split hourly services just so that there's a direct train through to somewhere on the other side of Manchester. Keep It Simple...

I do agree, but a lot of ranting by user groups has resulted in this kind of thing. Simple, consistent routes (and staff diagrams) and planned connections are what is needed.

 

[ajdunlop]

Given that the new timetable is not working the most sensible thing to do would be to revert to the old one (I realise that Northern would still have issues that would require further action to fix), However Northern can't revert to the old timetable because that have to fit around the new TransPennine timetable.

If Northern and Transpennine where the same franchise or made to work together to fix the problem could a more effective solution be found to the problems?

it seems that DfT should really step in and make Northern and TPE go back to pre 22 May timetable (with capacity improvements from Pretendolino and trains cascaded to Northern) as well as amendments to free up crew for training in a more predictable way (like Monday onward's timetable but less severe). The current situation finds Northern stuck between driver shortages due to training and the movable TPE timetable.

 

[Bovverboy]

Thanks to this forum I understand what's happening: the Northern statement that "we are removing all services on the Lakes Line" completely baffled me, is it just me? Thanks to the forum I realise it means "the line from Oxenholme to Windermere" but why didn't it just say that? I've never heard of the "Lakes Line"!

Am I correct in presuming that, while bus substitution is in operation, the Oxenholme to Preston/Manchester section will simply not run, with everyone being obliged to use VT/TPE ?

 

[splashoutradio]

Just on the Stockport-Stalybridge service....I understood this to be moving to Saturdays but can see no reference to it on Realtime Trains. I checked with the Network Rail timetable Table 78A and can see that it offers "No Saturday or Sunday Service" and no service beyond Denton during the week either. Northen Rail have it on their map but not on their station finder.

Have they given up even running the token service between Stockport and Stalybridge?

Silly me! Must have been a glitch -- couldn't find it. Odd that the current NR timetable omits it.

From the link you provided it looks as though table 78A also omits the 0604, 0710, and 1809 (all SSuX) Guide Bridge - Stalybridge.

Don't know if it's much use, but the full schedule is covered in table 92 HERE

 

[Bertie the bus]

I disagree. From the users' point of view we need a relatively regular-interval skeleton timetable that will run, and traincrew diagrams re-written around that service. Just cancelling trains (or terminating short) because of a staff member missing is a recipe for disaster. Completely unpredictable and hence unuseable.

That would probably take weeks or months. Nobody wants the current situation to continue longer than necessary so hacking at the timetable on lesser used lines is the least worst option.

 

[yorksrob]

Given that the new timetable is not working the most sensible thing to do would be to revert to the old one (I realise that Northern would still have issues that would require further action to fix), However Northern can't revert to the old timetable because that have to fit around the new TransPennine timetable.

If Northern and Transpennine where the same franchise or made to work together to fix the problem could a more effective solution be found to the problems?

it seems that DfT should really step in and make Northern and TPE go back to pre 22 May timetable (with capacity improvements from Pretendolino and trains cascaded to Northern) as well as amendments to free up crew for training in a more predictable way (like Monday onward's timetable but less severe). The current situation finds Northern stuck between driver shortages due to training and the movable TPE timetable.

I don't agree with this as it will lose the large number of benefits and improvements such as later trains and enhanced Sunday services which don't adversely affect the known bottlenecks, and which haven't been destroyed by the North West's staffing issues.

An amended timetable around the above issues is the way to go.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I've probably posted it in the wrong thread but I've seen this in the MEN regarding the absolute mess that is the 20th May to 8th December timetable.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...haustion-stress-panic-attacks-people-14734123

 

[superkev]

That would probably take weeks or months. Nobody wants the current situation to continue longer than necessary so hacking at the timetable on lesser used lines is the least worst option.

Nobody presumably excludes the rail unions as they seem to delight in seeing Northern and bimode Grayling struggle
K

 

[158756]

Nobody presumably excludes the rail unions as they seem to delight in seeing Northern and bimode Grayling struggle
K

How many other industries are there where the staff want their employer to go bust?

 

[js1000]

I remember they closed Deansgate at Xmas to avoid heavy pax traffic.

Could they simply close Oxford Road (and Deansgate) until this shambles is sorted out, and put on extra free buses from Piccadilly?

Impossible. It might look like an odd, tiny station that doesn't belong in a city centre but Oxford Road has 8 million+ passengers a year which is more than Newcastle, Nottingham etc. You just shift the problem to Piccadilly on two already crowded through platforms.

Personally Northern need to do two things as a short term fix until the existing timetable can be optimised by the time of the December timetable.

The first is to omit one of the Manchester Airport services to give the bottleneck through Manchester and on the Styal Line some breathing space. Secondly, revert the Liverpool Lime Street to Crewe via Manchester into two shuttle services as opposed to the current cross-city service which has proven to be unreliable and a liability for Northern with train drivers and crew frequently out of position.

They have done by omitting some of the Blackpool-Manchester Airport services and terminating the route at Oxford Road rather than unnecessarily taking up platform space at Piccadilly. The second will happen as part of the Liverpool Lime Street closure.

 

[js1000]

If RTT is correct, it looks as if Earlestown, St. Helens Jn., Rainhill & Whiston had no trains towards Liverpool for over 5 hours today (31 May). Of course, when we had a proper railway system, special stops would have been made by some of the express services, but now they are separate companies (Northern TPE), such sensible alternatives seem to be impossible...

It's a similar situation on the other side of Manchester from Mauldeth Road to Heald Green for the past 3 weeks.

As discussed on one of the (many!) other threads about the changes/ problems in the north of England, the service patterns in the north west are to blame.

For example, before the changes, you had two trains an hour from Blackpool to Manchester and two trains an hour from Southport to Manchester. But instead of a simple half hourly service on both routes (which would therefore cope with disruption and be relatively simple to reduce to hourly) both Blackpool and Southport had one train per hour to Manchester Airport (via Piccadilly) and one train per hour to Victoria. Same with the Eccles line (some services to Pic, some to Vic).

Unfortunately the new franchise continues this complicated set up - e.g. the Calder Valley is to have an hourly Southport service, an hourly Chester service and an hourly Manchester Airport service. If all Calder Valley trains ran through to Wigan/ Southport then it'd be simpler to reduce the frequency and drop one or two trains per hour.

Nine trains per hour from Piccadilly to the Airport but a *seventeen* minute gap each hour between xx:33 and xx:50 because the nine trains are all from different places so are badly split apart.

When you have a simple half hourly service (as West Yorkshire does on most routes), going down to hourly can be acceptable. But when you have lots of separate hourly services, reducing them to every two hours will create some huge gaps.

But, in fairness to Northern, the paymasters want to have lots of direct hourly services, everywhere wants a direct Piccadilly service (rather than half hourly to Victoria), MPs and Councillors will demand a direct Airport train, there's people wanting various cross-Manchester services (e.g. Stockport to Bolton). So the whole timetable ends up in a giant mess where a butterfly flapping its wings in Southport can mean delays at Alderley Edge for the rest of the day.

About the only bit working reasonably well seems to have been the lines to Glossop/ New Mills/ Marple, which are relatively self contained short/ simple/ half hourly services (with the exception of the bi-hourly extension to the Hope Valley) - so somewhere like Rose Hill Marple has an easy reliable service to Piccadilly every half hour, instead of having two badly-split hourly services just so that there's a direct train through to somewhere on the other side of Manchester. Keep It Simple...

The better solution would be for a Manchester Airport express shuttle service from Piccadilly every 15 minutes and from Victoria every 20 minutes in a similar vein to Heathrow Express, Gatwick Express, Stansted etc. It's the fairest and only way to stop the carrot everyone wants in the north - a direct train service to Manchester Airport.

I agree with you, it is a problem that iis having a destructive effect on commuter services into Manchester and balanced timings.