Northern's Problems in the North West

[Moonshot]

Why is this still a problem though? How long does refamilarisation take. People drive cars and often they drive on unfamiliar routes. However with a car there is a greater chance of getting lost. Yes I have posted on here of a train getting lost but that was due to an error with the signalperson according to someone on here. So how much "training" does a driver need? They know how to operate a train and in times of emergency have run trains on back up lines and other routes so why does it take so long to get them up to speed with this one. Besides which its not a new line after all its been there for a while just been redone.

Knowing where signals and speed limits are ( particularly in the dark ) are a pre requisite for drivers. They will have to get at least 6 trips in and then assessed before they are let loose ....brand new drivers have to do a lot more trips.

 

[pt_mad]

Northern's situation has just been featured as one of the main stories on the BBC news at one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44327233

The RMT has called for Transport Secretary Chris Grayling to "get out" after days of "carnage" on Northern trains since a new timetable came in.

The union's general secretary Mick Cash said his members are facing public anger "without a shred of support" from Mr Grayling or Northern's management.

Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham told the BBC he understands Northern will introduce an emergency timetable.

A spokesman for Northern said there will be "amended services" from Monday.

The company has fully cancelled 212 services so far today with all services on the Lakes Line between Oxenholme to Windermere affected.

A further 81 have been part cancelled (eg trains not travelling to their final destination or missing out certain stops on a route).

Passengers have faced widespread cancellations and delays since a timetable change was introduced on 20 May.

Since 18 May, more than 2,000 Northern services have been aborted.

The mayor of Greater Manchester also spoke on the news broadcast saying it was totally unacceptable amongst other things.

And the BBC actually said that the transport secretary has been acused of going into hiding and leaving front line staff to face the passengers. And they read out that the RMT are calling on the transport secretary to resign.

 

[B&I]

Please be reassured some forum members are experiencing near to normal service levels

'Blow you, Jack, I'm alright'

 

[B&I]

Northern's situation has just been featured as one of the main stories on the BBC news at one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44327233



The major of Greater Manchester also spoke on the news broadcast saying it was totally unacceptable amongst other things.

Sadly he is not the major. If he was, perhaps he could drive a tank through Boiled Egg Features' front door and we might see some progress.

Anyway, Cash gets the tone completely wrong again. Where is the sympathy for passengers, and the recognition that some people are suffering a lot more as a result of this than train staff are ?

 

[pt_mad]

Sadly he is not the major. If he was, perhaps he could drive a tank through Boiled Egg Features' front door and we might see some progress

True

 

[woodmally]

Northern's situation has just been featured as one of the main stories on the BBC news at one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44327233



The major of Greater Manchester also spoke on the news broadcast saying it was totally unacceptable amongst other things.

And the BBC actually said that the transport secretary has been acused of going into hiding and leaving front line staff to face the passengers. And they read out that the RMT are calling on the transport secretary to resign.

Finally they are looking into the problem. Yet we have had 2 years of strike action and no politician has done anything about it. Its just been ignored.

 

[pt_mad]

Is it serious enough now for Grayling to have to resign?

 

[Howardh]

There have been delays on the TPE though they are slowly improving. But with fairly regular services even if they are all running late you'd have a fair chance of picking one up around the time you'll need it! P13/14 is never a great option I'll admit, but with the Liverpool blockade on it *might* be a tad quieter on there, otherwise any cabin/hold luggage can always be utilised as a battering ram!*

But at least there's a few options, you can check on the day how things are looking and mix & match to get you there in plenty of time. Good luck!

(*I do not of course recommend this )

Very funny! the good/bad news is I'm taking zero baggage apart from a very small manbag for my camera and kagoule - it's a day trip - so not much to barge people away with. Mind you, a breakfast of beans and black pudding should give me an advantage

 

[pt_mad]

The report on the one o clock news also said that the (current rail service/lack of on Northern) is also responsible for ruining people's lives.

 

[Howardh]

Is it serious enough now for Grayling to have to resign?

it's serious enough for him to turn up and actually do something - except what, exactly can he do? So by default if he can't do anything - then what's the point of him being there? I actually now think a state of emergency isn't such a bad idea after all!
If doctors, surgeons, firemen, anyone in the emergency services simply can't get into work then someone could die. melodramatic, yes, but if you multiply the affected staff by number of days then the odds are increasing...

 

[Moonshot]

The report on the one o clock news also said that the (current rail service/lack of on Northern) is also responsible for ruining people's lives.

Judging by the numbers of passngers now spilling out of Victoria every day, I m guessing thats a bit over the top.

 

[Howardh]

So some questions from monday onwards -
Will the emergency timetable have fewer trains but they will be longer so after a long wait you will still be able to get on?
Will they put bustitutions on to fill the gaps?
Will they take the stress of central Manchester by bussing commuters from Wigan/Preston/Bolton directly to the airport?

 

[urbophile]

Judging by the numbers of passngers now spilling out of Victoria every day, I m guessing thats a bit over the top.

Are they happy commuters? Or delayed by hours? Or simply coming out of the station because they have got fed up of waiting for non-existent trains?

 

[mallard]

Anyway, Cash gets the tone completely wrong again. Where is the sympathy for passengers, and the recognition that some people are suffering a lot more as a result of this than train staff are ?

Why would a cynically transparent attempt to curry favour by pretending to care about passengers be better than honesty? Unions (in general, not just the RMT) don't care about anyone who isn't a member of them. That's their function and purpose.

 

[Moonshot]

So some questions from monday onwards -
Will the emergency timetable have fewer trains but they will be longer so after a long wait you will still be able to get on?
Will they put bustitutions on to fill the gaps?
Will they take the stress of central Manchester by bussing commuters from Wigan/Preston/Bolton directly to the airport?

My sister made that very trip from Bolton to the Airport yesterday with Northern at around 8am....and got there pretty much on time.

 

[Howardh]

My sister made that very trip from Bolton to the Airport yesterday with Northern at around 8am....and got there pretty much on time.

And if she's have set off at 10 judging by the cancellations and delays on the boards and realtimetrains I very much doubt she would have been on time. All morning trains through Bolton to the Airport yesterday after 9am AFAIK were cancelled

 

[Howardh]

Are they happy commuters? Or delayed by hours? Or simply coming out of the station because they have got fed up of waiting for non-existent trains?

...ore were lucky enough to be using the trams?

 

[Moonshot]

Are they happy commuters? Or delayed by hours? Or simply coming out of the station because they have got fed up of waiting for non-existent trains?

No, its normal traffic. No doubt the situation on the platforms is very frustrating particulalry when they are getting full of waiting pax. Im seeing this every day just now and its not good. But I dont see any wholesale abandonment of journeys, and I ll give credit to the despatchers on the platforms as its very trying for them just now. For all the hoo haa about trains being cancelled, there are still more running than there were prior to the actual timetable change

 

[Moonshot]

...ore were lucky enough to be using the trams?

I serously doubt tram passengers are coming over the stairs from P4 to P6

 

[Moonshot]

And if she's have set off at 10 judging by the cancellations and delays on the boards and realtimetrains I very much doubt she would have been on time. All morning trains through Bolton to the Airport yesterday after 9am AFAIK were cancelled

probably....but in any event there are still plenty of trains getting pax from Bolton to Manchester yesterday.

 

[Bertie the bus]

For all the hoo haa about trains being cancelled, there are still more running than there were prior to the actual timetable change

Your defence of your company is utterly ridiculous and you really don’t get it do you? It doesn’t matter how many trains are running, what matters is whether people can rely on the service, i.e. do they run when they are supposed to?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it serious enough now for Grayling to have to resign?

It's not particularly Grayling's personal fault.
The Northern/TPE regime was set by his predecessor, Patrick MacLoughlin, with rail ministers Claire Perry and (Blackpool MP) Paul Maynard.
All these were moved in the reshuffle last year.
Over the last couple of years, DfT has devolved responsibility for managing the franchises to TfN and a shadowy group in Leeds called Rail North Partnership.
This is linked to the local authorities in the north, so Andy Burham and Steve Rotheram have to be careful or they will be criticising their own staff who are supposed to be in charge of the franchise.
To be fair they have not had time to get their feet under the table since they gained responsibility, and seem to have no PR capability or someone willing to stand up and take the flak.
Mick Cash blames Grayling for the continuing DOO dispute, and everything RMT says has to be seen through that lens.
The more chaos in the affected franchises, the better they like it.

The rail minister is presently Jo Johnson, who has so far shown a great level of incompetence in the role (unlike Paul Maynard who knew rail very well, and was local to the north).
Grayling himself is quite well informed too, from previous government/opposition roles, and has the clout to make things happen across government.
They shouldn't have moved Paul Maynard. It would be an improvement if they brought him back to replace Johnson.

 

[Howardh]

probably....but in any event there are still plenty of trains getting pax from Bolton to Manchester yesterday.

of those "plenty"...plenty were very late indeed and plenty got no further than Oxford Road. If you think that's an OK service then I'll stand with you on Platform 13 as you explain to the commuters how lucky they are; should be a fun day out

 

[Moonshot]

Your defence of your company is utterly ridiculous and you really don’t get it do you? It doesn’t matter how many trains are running, what matters is whether people can rely on the service, i.e. do they run when they are supposed to?

Yes I do get it ....Im right in the thick of all this unlike you. So I am seeing a lot more than you. No doubt its naff at the moment but I can safely tell you that there has been no wholesale abandonment of journeys by passengers.

 

[RAPC]

Im seeing this every day just now and its not good. But I dont see any wholesale abandonment of journeys, and I ll give credit to the despatchers on the platforms as its very trying for them just now. For all the hoo haa about trains being cancelled, there are still more running than there were prior to the actual timetable change

You won't see as much abandonment from Victoria, as I would expect that the passenger flow is based upon the return leg of a journey, where you have far less of an opportunity to abandon the train. At my local station, there has been plenty of abandonment in the morning as people go home or find an alternative. Take a look last week and this week at the car parks for the more affected stations and journeys are well below normal levels, even taking half term in to account. Not abandoned on the day, but certainly people moving from rail to other options.

With regards to the point about total services, that may be true for Northern as a whole, but for Manchester to Liverpool, Manchester to Preston and the Windermere line, that is definitely false.

 

[Moonshot]

of those "plenty"...plenty were very late indeed and plenty got no further than Oxford Road. If you think that's an OK service then I'll stand with you on Platform 13 as you explain to the commuters how lucky they are; should be a fun day out

I think I have already said that the service North of Manchester is somewhat up the creek. But like some have said already, staff are working flat out on the ground. A train cancelled doesnt necessarily mean a journey cancelled.

 

[Moonshot]

It's not particularly Grayling's personal fault.
The Northern/TPE regime was set by his predecessor, Patrick MacLoughlin, with rail ministers Claire Perry and (Blackpool MP) Paul Maynard.
All these were moved in the reshuffle last year.
Over the last couple of years, DfT has devolved responsibility for managing the franchises to TfN and a shadowy group in Leeds called Rail North Partnership.
This is linked to the local authorities in the north, so Andy Burham and Steve Rotheram have to be careful or they will be criticising their own staff who are supposed to be in charge of the franchise.
To be fair they have not had time to get their feet under the table since they gained responsibility, and seem to have no PR capability or someone willing to stand up and take the flak.
Mick Cash blames Grayling for the continuing DOO dispute, and everything RMT says has to be seen through that lens.
The more chaos in the affected franchises, the better they like it.

The rail minister is presently Jo Johnson, who has so far shown a great level of incompetence in the role (unlike Paul Maynard who knew rail very well, and was local to the north).
Grayling himself is quite well informed too, from previous government/opposition roles, and has the clout to make things happen across government.
They shouldn't have moved Paul Maynard. It would be an improvement if they brought him back to replace Johnson.

Why should anyone resign? Right now its an operational issue and a quite serious one at that affecting services in Lancashire. I daresay there will be some sort of groundhog day emergency timetable introduced very shortly until all this can be sorted. Its up to the operational people to sort that one out and quickly

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why should anyone resign? Right now its an operational issue and a quite serious one at that affecting services in Lancashire. I daresay there will be some sort of groundhog day emergency timetable introduced very shortly until all this can be sorted. Its up to the operational people to sort that one out and quickly

While we up north might think Northern/TPE is the only/most important problem, there is still more media attention and long-term anger at the GTR situation (which has been going on for 2 years and more).
Any resignations will be linked to events in both situations.
Network Rail are in the dock too, and it's easier for the DfT to demand changes there as they own the show, unlike the franchises.
In the case of Northern, I'm surprised the MD David Brown is the most senior person in the public eye.
Arriva itself (HQ) has not been involved, and certainly not parent DB who might reasonably be expected to cough up some funds to solve the operational problems.
In VT/Stagecoach/FirstGroup/Govia meltdowns it hasn't taken long before the owners wade in.

 

[Moonshot]

While we up north might think Northern/TPE is the only/most important problem, there is still more media attention and long-term anger at the GTR situation (which has been going on for 2 years and more).
Any resignations will be linked to events in both situations.
Network Rail are in the dock too, and it's easier for the DfT to demand changes there as they own the show, unlike the franchises.
In the case of Northern, I'm surprised the MD David Brown is the most senior person in the public eye.
Arriva itself (HQ) has not been involved, and certainly not parent DB who might reasonably be expected to cough up some funds to solve the operational problems.
In VT/Stagecoach/FirstGroup/Govia meltdowns it hasn't taken long before the owners wade in.

Thats down to Northern Rail being plastered all over the trains. The vast majority of passengers wont even be aware that DB is a parent company.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will they take the stress of central Manchester by bussing commuters from Wigan/Preston/Bolton directly to the airport?

Why should they? If you want a direct door to door service take a taxi.