Trains disappearing from realtimetrains

[andythebrave]

Due signalling problems the Marston Vale shuttle has not yet started today. Services have been deleted from rtt on a rolling basis rather than be shown as cancelled.
Have they caught GTR disease?

 

[IanXC]

Have you got the CAN option selected? They are in as "PG" (planned cancellation) which suggests they knew they wouldn't operate last night?

 

[Crossover]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/FEN/2018/05/29/0000-2359?stp=WVSC&show=all&order=wtt

As IanXC mentions, they do show when CAN is a selected option. It looks like they are being cancelled as the schedules are activated, 2 hours in advance of the booked departure time

 

[Crossover]

Actually, they are all showing as cancelled when you go on them, but they are only disappearing from the default RTT view when activated

 

[andythebrave]

Ah, CAN. You learn something new every day.
NR was slow to update too meaning my other half and two children waited half a day (at home) before giving up.

 

[causton]

It was known at around 2230 last night, which I believe was early enough to be a 'planned' cancellation but too late to not count for PPM as I think that is if it is cancelled before 2200.

 

[IanXC]

Ah, CAN. You learn something new every day.
NR was slow to update too meaning my other half and two children waited half a day (at home) before giving up.

The underlying data isn't meant for planning journies as such - it may be updated at any point that day. TOCs own Journey Check or National Rail Enquiries will be updated much more promptly.

 

[Muzer]

The underlying data isn't meant for planning journies as such - it may be updated at any point that day. TOCs own Journey Check or National Rail Enquiries will be updated much more promptly.

NRE will often show a train as cancelled when it isn't, though. When a train is shown as cancelled in RTT you know it's definitely not running. But it's true that different TOCs are more or less prompt at marking trains as cancelled in TRUST, which is what RTT uses (it being the only truly open data on the topic).

 

[Highlandspring]

Unless things are different south of the border (and there's nothing in the National Control Instructions to suggest they are) it isn't TOC controllers inputting cancellations into TRUST but the NR Train Running Controllers.

 

[bb21]

When a train is shown as cancelled in RTT you know it's definitely not running.

Far, far from it.

The data is only as good as the knowledge of person who altered them.

There is an example on the forum a while back where someone sought advice on a train that was shown as cancelled and not running, but in actual fact it was always scheduled to run, and did indeed run.

 

[Spartacus]

Then there’s the ones on GTR today that have been planned cancellations but GTR wanted to run, but had to cancel due to not having the crews....

 

[IanXC]

NRE will often show a train as cancelled when it isn't, though. When a train is shown as cancelled in RTT you know it's definitely not running. But it's true that different TOCs are more or less prompt at marking trains as cancelled in TRUST, which is what RTT uses (it being the only truly open data on the topic).

The data that feeds NRE (and CIS etc) is intended to be updated in real time.

A train being cancelled in TRUST (and RTT etc) can be done at any time, and is absolutely not a confirmation that it will or will not run.

Neither source show more than one version of events in any case, so the openness or otherwise is hardly relevant.

Unless things are different south of the border (and there's nothing in the National Control Instructions to suggest they are) it isn't TOC controllers inputting cancellations into TRUST but the NR Train Running Controllers.

Absolutely.

 

[Muzer]

My impression is that it's not possible to "un-cancel" a train in TRUST besides putting the schedule in again manually, which is why you can be pretty reasonably certain when it shows as cancelled it's actually cancelled. Correct me if I'm wrong on this! And I think I remember the thread to which you're referring, @bb21, but my recollection was that it turned out it was another website rather than RTT showing it as cancelled — we could be thinking of different incidents though! EDIT: Just found it, was it this one? I don't think that matches what you described so probably not... Never mind!

I'll put it this way, though. I've spoken to a bunch of friends on the subject in the past, and none of us ever recall seeing a train Cancelled in RTT that actually ran — but most of us have seen ones cancelled in Darwin-based systems (NRES or station CISes) that did actually run (indeed, I caught one once)! So, anecdotally at least, in terms of showing that a train is cancelled (note: the same doesn't apply to showing that a train ISN'T cancelled), TRUST data does seem the more reliable.

I'll agree though that RTT isn't the best for being sure that a train *isn't* cancelled. But if it shows as running in both TRUST (eg RTT) and Darwin (eg station CIS/NRES) then I feel you can at least be reasonably sure it's running to the best of everyone's knowledge

 

[IanXC]

My impression is that it's not possible to "un-cancel" a train in TRUST besides putting the schedule in again manually, which is why you can be pretty reasonably certain when it shows as cancelled it's actually cancelled.

Nope. It is definitely possible to reinstate a cancelled train in TRUST.

 

[bb21]

The one I have in mind was one in the Eastleigh area a while back.

I can cancel a train in TRUST at any time within the permitted timescale, and reinstate it again whenever I want to (for good reason obviously). It is no absolute measure whether the train is scheduled to run or actually ran. The open data source gets amended accordingly. Schedules can be cancelled in error, not cancelled in error, rejected by MK correctly or incorrectly, reinstated prior to or post-journey, and amended for a whole host of other valid reasons.

Broadly speaking they would be correct in all likelihood, but they are no guarantee.

 

[takno]

The one I have in mind was one in the Eastleigh area a while back.

I can cancel a train in TRUST at any time within the permitted timescale, and reinstate it again whenever I want to (for good reason obviously). It is no absolute measure whether the train is scheduled to run or actually ran. The open data source gets amended accordingly. Schedules can be cancelled in error, not cancelled in error, rejected by MK correctly or incorrectly, reinstated prior to or post-journey, and amended for a whole host of other valid reasons.

Broadly speaking they would be correct in all likelihood, but they are no guarantee.

The short answer seems to be that neither source is 100% accurate. The Darwin is overlaid with some fixes for inaccuracies in TRUST, but also introduces some inaccuracies of its own. Personally I tend to plan journeys based on a TRUST-based system and watch the maps. If there's disruption I'll check nationalrail as well, but at the end of the day I've seen unreflected cancellations, trains which were cancelled in both and turned up anyway, and in at least one case a train that turned up at Edinburgh 90 late and got PINEd, but had already been replaced from Edinburgh to London with a train running to the original timing under the same headcode with no entry into either system. At some point in disruption I guess it becomes more about getting stuff moving than the niceties of entering it into the system just-so

 

[bb21]

Absolutely, however they really should not run services longer than a few miles (8 iirc) without having a schedule for it, but in any case to the masses they may run under a non-applicable VSTP schedule which does not necessarily get picked up by open data sources. They also shouldn't really restart a service under the same headcode with both ends still running, but I have seen that happen before too.

Part of me get the feeling that some of our newer TRCs probably went to the same training school as Muzer , what with erroneously cancelling services and then instead of reinstating them, create a duplicate VSTP schedule instead.

 

[Starmill]

The key, really, is to simply use NRE. Any errors or inaccuracies in the open data are close to irrelevant. If NRE says your train is cancelled, you can assume safely that it's cancelled and that any delay repay / alternative connections / emergency transport etc will apply to you, even if there's something inaccurate going on.

If I'm at home and NRE says my train is cancelled, I will not go to the station. I might be tempted to take a screenshot in that case though in case it's later reinstated, having learnt that one the hard way.

 

[Highlandspring]

What usually happens is that the TOC tell you a train is “definitely” cancelled because the unit’s a failure or the driver’s taxi hasn’t turned up or whatever then 30 seconds after you’ve cancelled it on TRUST they say “oh wait, no that will be running now” leading to almost instant reinstatement and muttered swearing. Because of that I usually wait 5 minutes after they’ve told me but even that doesn’t prevent the occasional renistatement. Also to change the origin of a previously cancelled train you need to reinstate it first and I think realtimetrains gets a bit confused with that. Creation of an ‘OA’ VSTP schedule is requred if you need to reinstate a ‘PD’ coded cancellation (after 2200) or where you are restarting a train that has already run part of it’s schedule, in which case it’ll be given a Z headcode. The other thing to watch for is that during serious disruption cancelling trains on TRUST goes to the bottom of the piority list - though it shouldn’t but the workload can be very high - and tends to get done in a big batch every so often; so your train may show on RTT as a definite runner then suddenly be cancelled some time after it should have departed.

 

[IanXC]

or where you are restarting a train that has already run part of it’s schedule, in which case it’ll be given a Z headcode.

Probably better to say an altered headcode. I understand Wessex route use "Y" and London North Western "T" for instance.

 

[Highlandspring]

Sorry yes imdeed, and the current operator of the East Coast franchise prefers G, which is a throwback to GNER days...

 

[Muzer]

Cheers for the responses, very interesting! I also agree that I'd tend to use TRUST-based data and combine it with checking the maps. If at a terminus I'd check that the inbound service seems to be running.

@Starmill that's all well and good, and I agree for refund reasons NRE should be sufficient; but if you want to actually get to that place (especially if you're already somewhere and want to go home) it can be useful to know if a train is *actually* cancelled or not...

 

[capital12]

My impression is that it's not possible to "un-cancel" a train in TRUST besides putting the schedule in again manually, which is why you can be pretty reasonably certain when it shows as cancelled it's actually cancelled. Correct me if I'm wrong on this! And I think I remember the thread to which you're referring, @bb21, but my recollection was that it turned out it was another website rather than RTT showing it as cancelled — we could be thinking of different incidents though! EDIT: Just found it, was it this one? I don't think that matches what you described so probably not... Never mind!

I'll put it this way, though. I've spoken to a bunch of friends on the subject in the past, and none of us ever recall seeing a train Cancelled in RTT that actually ran — but most of us have seen ones cancelled in Darwin-based systems (NRES or station CISes) that did actually run (indeed, I caught one once)! So, anecdotally at least, in terms of showing that a train is cancelled (note: the same doesn't apply to showing that a train ISN'T cancelled), TRUST data does seem the more reliable.

I'll agree though that RTT isn't the best for being sure that a train *isn't* cancelled. But if it shows as running in both TRUST (eg RTT) and Darwin (eg station CIS/NRES) then I feel you can at least be reasonably sure it's running to the best of everyone's knowledge

Just on your point about never seeing a train that was cancelled on RTT actually running, I actually caught one back in April from Victoria.

I caught the VIC-DFD train and when RailMiles couldn’t find it I looked on RTT - it only showed when clicking on the cancelled tab, but had actual times!

Hopefully the link works...
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W08652/2018/04/07/advanced