Northern's Problems in the North West

[30907]

And indeed why are there still single coach sprinters in use when presumably there are 2/3/4 car sets sat around?

As you've now asked this twice, and 153s aren't that common in Lancashire, I'm intrigued - could you give us a clue as to which service this was?

 

[Mathew S]

Eventually and "generally".
Missed connections. Late for appointments and meetings. Hanging around railway stations with nothing to do.
Oh what fun.
But I admire your determined defence of NR.

Once, in almost two weeks now, I've been more than 30 mins late. That's no worse than it's ever been. Other days I've been 2 mins later here, or 5 there, or 20 once; but again, that's normal. In fact it's a lot better than trains from Wigan to Manchester used to be.
I don't think either @Moonshot or I are defending anyone, rather just pointing out that for most people, this isn't the apocolyptic catastrophe that some are making it out to be.

 

[fulmar]

.....never mind a service cancelled because there wasn't a second driver to watch the first fully qualified driver!

No such requirement. Even when Northern drivers travel on the class 68 hauled services they are not required to watch the DRS driver or even be present in the cab. The DRS driver is fully qualified to work the train by themselves.

 

[Moonshot]

Once, in almost two weeks now, I've been more than 30 mins late. That's no worse than it's ever been. Other days I've been 2 mins later here, or 5 there, or 20 once; but again, that's normal. In fact it's a lot better than trains from Wigan to Manchester used to be.
I don't think either @Moonshot or I are defending anyone, rather just pointing out that for most people, this isn't the apocolyptic catastrophe that some are making it out to be.

Correct.....and despite the real operational issues we are facing which are really frustrating for the likes of me, the fact remains that passengers are still getting from a to b.

 

[fulmar]

.....with a couple of last minute reinstatements.

Thanks to hard work by station staff and train crews.

 

[Robertj21a]

Once, in almost two weeks now, I've been more than 30 mins late. That's no worse than it's ever been. Other days I've been 2 mins later here, or 5 there, or 20 once; but again, that's normal. In fact it's a lot better than trains from Wigan to Manchester used to be.
I don't think either @Moonshot or I are defending anyone, rather just pointing out that for most people, this isn't the apocolyptic catastrophe that some are making it out to be.

I would tend to agree with this. My recent trips on Northern have been a bit more frustrating than normal but nothing of great concern. Worst delay was 35 mins but, on the other hand, I managed to just catch a train that was 24 late - so arrived earlier than expected.
I can appreciate that some people are experiencing greater problems, but it's not really the massive issue as portrayed by some.
Hopefully, it will soon settle down.

 

[vidal]

Once, in almost two weeks now, I've been more than 30 mins late. That's no worse than it's ever been. Other days I've been 2 mins later here, or 5 there, or 20 once; but again, that's normal. In fact it's a lot better than trains from Wigan to Manchester used to be.
I don't think either @Moonshot or I are defending anyone, rather just pointing out that for most people, this isn't the apocolyptic catastrophe that some are making it out to be.

I'm not a frequent rail user, maybe 3 to 4 times a month, and all for leisure at the moment.

Went to the Windermere boat show, no problem getting there, nightmare to get back. One coach and one 12 seater minibus is not going to get a train load of passengers home.

Liverpool this last Monday, trains showing as cancelled, then leaving empty with no station announcements. I've cancelled a planned rail journey to Edinburgh as I can't be certain I would be able to catch my booked train from Wigan.

The staff on the ground are trying their best, but the last minute cancellations, then an unannounced reinstatement, then being dumped half way to your final destination is not going to enamour me to continuing to see rail as a viable leisure activity.

Id like to think that I can navigate a timetable as well as the several real time apps to plan a journey. I've no confidence in this now, I'm sure many less confident than me are absolutely petrified of being stuck with no easy way to complete a journey

 

[Bertie the bus]

I don't think either @Moonshot or I are defending anyone, rather just pointing out that for most people, this isn't the apocolyptic catastrophe that some are making it out to be.

You travel from Wigan - Manchester a few times and then speak for most people. Try catching a train north to Preston and spend a couple of hours there, if you can stand it due to the constant announcements 'The xx:xx Northern service to Y is cancelled', and you will see what some of us have to put with.

 

[snail]

Of course before you go all guns blazing into court, you could send them an email asking for a refund for the hotel room or taxi.
Then start considering more serious courses of action if they refuse a refund.
Sam

It's not uncommon for posters to advise full on court proceedings when it is someone else taking the risk.

 

[snail]

You travel from Wigan - Manchester a few times and then speak for most people. Try catching a train north to Preston and spend a couple of hours there.

Or try planning a connection between Wallgate and North Western to get to Preston. Miss the two Virgin trains at 25 and 38 past the hour and it can be a long wait. TPE no longer stop and the Blackpool services are frequently cancelled.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm surprised the removal of the TPE Wigan NW stop wasn't postponed, at least until the weekend works on the Atherton/Bolton line are complete.

 

[Kendalian]

Today was perhaps the worst day yet since the timetable change debacle began.
From Buckshaw to Manchester the 0736, 0742, 0757, 0809 and 0833 were all cancelled. Only the 0750 which turns at Buckshaw ran and that left 12 late.

Tonight the 1720 ex Victoria and 1734 ex Oxford Road were cancelled. The 1801 from Piccadilly left 10 late and was held at Chorley for 17 minutes stuck behind the 1805 Victoria-Buckshaw whilst it turned at Buckshaw.

Yes it's half term but the station car parks at Buckshaw, Chorley, Horwich and especially Lostock are much quieter than usual. Commuters are voting with their feet.....

 

[Bovverboy]

74A said:
So ASLEF won't allow the train to run unless there is a Northern driver sitting on the cushions doing nothing. Did they tell the poor passengers this ?

fulmar said:
Nonsense. There is no requirement for Northern drivers to be present on loco hauled services worked by class 68s. The DRS drivers are fully qualified to work the trains by themselves.

jcollins said: ↑
.....never mind a service cancelled because there wasn't a second driver to watch the first fully qualified driver!

No such requirement. Even when Northern drivers travel on the class 68 hauled services they are not required to watch the DRS driver or even be present in the cab. The DRS driver is fully qualified to work the train by themselves.

You said much the same thing only three posts earlier. So now we can be doubly sure that what you're saying is correct.

 

[Robertj21a]

Today was perhaps the worst day yet since the timetable change debacle began.
From Buckshaw to Manchester the 0736, 0742, 0757, 0809 and 0833 were all cancelled. Only the 0750 which turns at Buckshaw ran and that left 12 late.

Tonight the 1720 ex Victoria and 1734 ex Oxford Road were cancelled. The 1801 from Piccadilly left 10 late and was held at Chorley for 17 minutes stuck behind the 1805 Victoria-Buckshaw whilst it turned at Buckshaw.

Yes it's half term but the station car parks at Buckshaw, Chorley, Horwich and especially Lostock are much quieter than usual. Commuters are voting with their feet.....

The trains have certainly been unusually empty at times.

 

[cuccir]

I don't know why some posters seem to think that because Northern are doing OK over most of their network, that it's acceptable for them to be cancelling between 10 and 50% of trains a day on other parts of it.

Here's the PPM for Lancashire/Cumbria Inter-Urban: http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/NT/66

In May on this sector they managed just 2 days with fewer than 10% of trains over 30 mins late/cancelled, and none since the timetable transfer. The worst day has 47% in the red.

And for Lancashire and Cumbria Local: http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/NT/67, it's not much better.

For people on those lines that is a disaterously bad service.

 

[Mathew S]

You travel from Wigan - Manchester a few times and then speak for most people. Try catching a train north to Preston and spend a couple of hours there, if you can stand it due to the constant announcements 'The xx:xx Northern service to Y is cancelled', and you will see what some of us have to put with.

I've made it very clear (at least twice in this thread) that I don't claim to speak for anyone. What I said, very simply and very clearly, is that I imagine my experience is quite similar to that of most passengers. A sentiment echoed by others I should point out.
I have also acknowledged on more than one occasion that there are others who have it far worse than I.

As for the TPE/connections at Wigan for Preston issue, I am well aware, as the train I would ideally like to be catching from Manchester is one that would do precisely that. However, given its current issues, I'm more than happy to catch an alternative service instead. No big deal, and since I know that's the train to avoid at the moment, that's what I do.

The omly thing that is irking me at the moment is that I'm never quite sure which of two stations in Wigan and three in Manchester is going to be the right place to be, but that'll settle down once I get used to the new timetable and which services are most reliable, as much as anything else.

 

[Mathew S]

I don't know why some posters seem to think that because Northern are doing OK over most of their network, that it's acceptable for them to be cancelling between 10 and 50% of trains a day on other parts of it.

I don't think anyone thinks that - I know I don't. Of course it's not acceptable. The point I've been trying to make is that whilst some areas are suffering to that extent, most areas - and therefore most passengers - aren't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And indeed why are there still single coach sprinters in use when presumably there are 2/3/4 car sets sat around?

The problem is that the units are ending up out of use in random places. That's why an emergency timetable is needed, so they can be planned to be in the correct place to operate longer trains.

 

[B&I]

Some of the delays I experienced last week in Manchester were due to awaiting a guard (in two cases, from Liverpool).

Lack of guards has been delaying trains out of Lime Street with reasonable regularity for at least a year, in my experience

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not a frequent rail user, maybe 3 to 4 times a month, and all for leisure at the moment.

Went to the Windermere boat show, no problem getting there, nightmare to get back. One coach and one 12 seater minibus is not going to get a train load of passengers home.

And that too is just incompetent. They know there is a problem. They should have contracted with coach companies for lots of standby vehicles as soon as they knew it, not waited until the last minute to get them and only managed to get the two.

OK, the root of the problem might be Network Rail's fault, but the handling of it is grossly incompetent (a classic Arriva trait).

 

[B&I]

You travel from Wigan - Manchester a few times and then speak for most people. Try catching a train north to Preston and spend a couple of hours there, if you can stand it due to the constant announcements 'The xx:xx Northern service to Y is cancelled', and you will see what some of us have to put with.

Quite. I don't quite see why some people (notably, those on lines with very frequent services) are so insistent on posting cheery missives about being 'only' 30 minutes late on their chosen services, when other posters are pointing out that they are waiting literally hours due to serial cancellation of services. It has a whiff of 'blow you, Jack, I'm alright' about it

 

[snail]

As for the TPE/connections at Wigan for Preston issue, I am well aware, as the train I would ideally like to be catching from Manchester is one that would do precisely that. However, given its current issues, I'm more than happy to catch an alternative service instead. No big deal, and since I know that's the train to avoid at the moment, that's what I do.

The only 'reliable' services are the TPE from Piccadilly. Frequently late (but not enough for delay repay) and means joining a worse scrum than before at P14 just to get on a train now that the former Oxford Rd commuters have no choice but to trek across there.

 

[Loop & Link]

This is outrageous, a journey cancelled through lack of a guard when it's supposedly drivers Northern are short of. This is the greatest argument for introducing an emergency timetable, i.e. at least then optimum use could be made of available drivers/guards/rolling stock.

Why is it?

There was no guard because the guard might have been travelling pass on a train that was cancelled, or supposed to work another service that was cancelled due to no driver.

Example:

Service from Manchester Oxford Road - Liverpool, cancelled, no driver.

On arrival at Liverpool, the guard does a trip to Wigan.

However, because the service was cancelled the guard has to catch the next service to Liverpool travelling passenger arriving into Liverpool late.

This means the Wigan departure may have a driver but now has no guard so is delayed leaving Liverpool.

On arrival at Wigan the guard is booked a 20 min break before going back to Liverpool, however as the guard was late inward and claims their break, this service is then subject to a late start and so on.

You can see, how the situation snowballs, and why there has been so many delays.

 

[Howardh]

Well my old mum is now *officially* consigned to a wheelchair, so no trips in the car to the seaside anymore. No worries, all part if being 87 and we have ramps and hoists in place.

However the tail in the sting is I'd love to get the special ring-and-ride bus to Lostock station so we can have a nice day out on the train. But there's no way I'm doing that, simply can't trust Northern to either have a train running or turn up remotely on time. Going out is one thing, coming back is another when the day would be spoiled worrying if we would be back in time for the pre-booked ring-and-ride and continual phone-calls to them changing itinery completely naffing them off.

Just how after electricution and a couple of months settling down that things will be fab, but that's now gonna be this time next year and the old girl isn't getting any younger.

 

[B&I]

I've made it very clear (at least twice in this thread) that I don't claim to speak for anyone. What I said, very simply and very clearly, is that I imagine my experience is quite similar to that of most passengers. A sentiment echoed by others I should point out.
I have also acknowledged on more than one occasion that there are others who have it far worse than I.

As for the TPE/connections at Wigan for Preston issue, I am well aware, as the train I would ideally like to be catching from Manchester is one that would do precisely that. However, given its current issues, I'm more than happy to catch an alternative service instead. No big deal, and since I know that's the train to avoid at the moment, that's what I do.

The omly thing that is irking me at the moment is that I'm never quite sure which of two stations in Wigan and three in Manchester is going to be the right place to be, but that'll settle down once I get used to the new timetable and which services are most reliable, as much as anything else.

If, by your own admission, you can't speak for anyone else, and if your experience seems to be confined to a limited number of lines / services, how on Earth can you say that things are the same for most users as they have been for you ?

 

[Bovverboy]

Just how after electricution and a couple of months settling down that things will be fab, but that's now gonna be this time next year and the old girl isn't getting any younger.

Would depend upon just who you decided to 'electricute', I suppose.

 

[beano900]

I’ve been travelling along the Warrington Central to Manchester line most days for the past 6 years. Today was one of the worst experiences of getting home in all that time, given that there weren’t any train faults or signal failures. Just a mass of seething commuters and bewildered staff. Automatic apologies everywhere. It just appeared like Northern had completely lost control.

4 of 5 trains to Lime Street cancelled over the peak time with everyone squeezing onto the East Midlands. The cancellations seem to have begun a couple of weeks before the timetable change but that has made things worse.

We even had a guard from one of the cancelled trains who found out about the cancellation from the automatic announcement. He was blaming management for not being able to organise staff movements properly.

 

[Bovverboy]

Once, in almost two weeks now, I've been more than 30 mins late. That's no worse than it's ever been. Other days I've been 2 mins later here, or 5 there, 20 once; but again, that's normal. In fact it's a lot better than trains from Wigan to Manchester used to be.
I don't think either @Moonshot or I are defending anyone, rather just pointing out that for most people, this isn't the apocolyptic catastrophe that some are making it out to be.

The majority of people travel in the daytime, on well patronised routes, therefore they're likely to get a train sooner or later.

Things generally deteriorate as the day goes on. Last night three consecutive journeys on Liverpool to Wilmslow stoppers (via Chat Moss) were cancelled - 1928, 2028, 2129. That meant four hours between an eastbound train of any sort at most stations between Liverpool and Eccles. The last two journeys of the day westbound were also cancelled.

I gather that things were at least as bad on the Liverpool - Wigan line.

The Windermere line has seen gaps of several hours, even in the middle of the day.

 

[Mathew S]

If, by your own admission, you can't speak for anyone else, and if your experience seems to be confined to a limited number of lines / services, how on Earth can you say that things are the same for most users as they have been for you ?

I didn't. I said that I thought they probably were, there's a world of difference between me saying that's what I think (an opinion) and the way you phrased it (a statement of fact). Can you give me any reason to suggest that the experience of most passengers is particularly worse than mine, however?

 

[Mathew S]

The majority of people travel in the daytime, on well patronised routes, therefore they're likely to get a train sooner or later.

Things generally deteriorate as the day goes on. Last night three consecutive journeys on Liverpool to Wilmslow stoppers (via Chat Moss) were cancelled - 1928, 2028, 2129. That meant four hours between an eastbound train of any sort at most stations between Liverpool and Eccles. The last two journeys of the day westbound were also cancelled.

The Windermere line has seen gaps of several hours, even in the middle of the day.

Makes sense. Would certainly chime with my experience, where the only major issue I experienced was after 10pm.

Windermere certainly seems to be getting some of the worst of it.