Northern's Problems in the North West

[northwichcat]

Interesting that Network Rail are in the DfT firing line more than Northern or GTR.
The Northern/TPE timetable planning of course goes back to the 2015 ITT and the various TSR schedules defined there.
It was also supposed to be introduced in December last, so NR can hardly complain about lack of planning time.
The sudden change due to the delay in Manchester-Preston wiring is also down to NR's IP (Infrastructure Projects) division not being able to forecast completion properly, even after repeated previous delays.
I'm sure Northern have contributed their own planning failures to the situation, but I can see why the NR System Operator function is seen as the primary culprit.
The problems also call into question the planning and business case for Northern Hub (eg Ordsall Curve) and the Picc/Oxford Road non-improvements.
As to wielding the axe, Mr Paonessa (head of IP) is still there despite the repeated failures of electrification projects.

It's right to place blame on Network Rail but Northern should be in a position where they are complaining they've recruited extra drivers and guards and they are unable to utilise them all due to delays outside of their control. Also Porterbrook's failure to deliver 769s in time keeps getting overlooked.

 

[thejuggler]

I notice the BBC news site has a story, but it only mentions issues with GTR. No reference to the fact Chris Grayling has also written about issues with Northern.

I've used about 20 of their services and I consider the timetable no more than advisory. The service I caught this morning was showing as "on time" 4 minutes before it was due. Considering the previous station is 9 minutes away I assumed it had left on time.

3 minutes after it was due no sign of it's arrival. Then advised it was 8 minutes late, but it had been late all of the journey, so was never one time!

 

[Bertie the bus]

Interesting that Network Rail are in the DfT firing line more than Northern or GTR.
...
I'm sure Northern have contributed their own planning failures to the situation, but I can see why the NR System Operator function is seen as the primary culprit.

He’s blaming Network Rail for all of it because it suits his agenda. Coming at the same time as VTEC handing back the keys, if he suggested the TOCs were to blame even more people would question the value of a privatised railway. If Grayling is so certain it is all Network Rail’s fault what is the point of commissioning the report into the fiasco?

That isn’t having a go at Grayling or the Tories. It’s what all politicians do.

 

[47802]

r

He’s blaming Network Rail for all of it because it suits his agenda. Coming at the same time as VTEC handing back the keys, if he suggested the TOCs were to blame even more people would question the value of a privatised railway. If Grayling is so certain it is all Network Rail’s fault what is the point of commissioning the report into the fiasco?

That isn’t having a go at Grayling or the Tories. It’s what all politicians do.

Well yes that's true but Network Rail do have a lot to be blamed for as well as some of the TOC's

One thing I have noticed that despite most of Blackpool Services being substituted by Bus both yesterday and today there seems to very little mention of this fact on Northerns website.

 

[snowball]

Since press releases are being discussed, I don't think this one has been mentioned. It came out last Thursday.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds/network-rail-and-northern-to-commission-independent-report/

Network Rail and Northern announced today they will be commissioning an independent report and recommendations into the preparations and processes leading up to the implementation of the recent timetable change. Customer groups, transport and Northern stakeholders will be invited to contribute to the report.

Since the introduction of the new timetable on Sunday 20 May, many train customers have faced delays, cancellations and overcrowding. The timetable change, the biggest in decades, is designed to boost capacity with better trains and more services in the long-term. However more immediately it has not delivered an acceptable service for customers, especially on routes around north Manchester extending up to Blackpool.

The multi-billion pound investment plan in the north will mean improved connections, shorter journey times, larger and better trains and more comfortable journeys. There will be more frequent trains delivered through track and train upgrades as part of the Great North Rail Project.

This is in addition to measures announced yesterday to tackle the current disruption.

Martin Frobisher, managing director for Network Rail’s London North Western route, said: “We recognise how tough it has been for customers, particularly since the May timetable change last weekend and we’re sorry for that. We are working hard with Northern to get service back to where it needs to be. We will work as one team to achieve this.

“The independent report will ensure lessons are learned and that there are no repeats of current problems as we prepare for the next major timetable change in December this year.”

David Brown, managing director of Northern, said: “We are doing everything we can to minimise cancellations and delays and keep our customers informed. It has been difficult for many of our customers and I am truly sorry for this.

“There is urgent work to do to fully understand what did and didn’t work on all aspects of planning and delivery of the new timetable.

“We are committed to working with Network Rail and Northern stakeholders to deliver the services our customers expect and deserve.”

 

[janb]

for example, says Preston to Barrow severely disrupted today.

Furness Line an absolute mess today. Many many cancellations with a couple of last minute reinstatements.

 

[Moonshot]

So, after a week and a half of traveling on this new timetable, and with the current 'issues,' how are things going? Well, with one or two hiccups, pretty well.

Despite many services between Wigan and Manchester (my regular route) having been canceled over the last week, I've only had two journeys which have been meaningfully disrupted.

Last Tuesday afternoon, three trains in a row from Wigan to Manchester were canceled and, thus, I had to catch a fourth. However, I still arrived less than half an hour late into Manchester, on a train that was - at its busiest - less than half full.

Then last night I had intended to catch the 2226 Barrow service from Picadilly. However, when I checked about 3 hours before it had been canceled. No big deal, as there is another train (to Blackpool) at 2234 from Oxford Road. In the end, however, and after much confusion about which of the two trains at Oxford Road would actually stop at Wigan, I was exactly half an hour late arriving back at North Western.

Over the rest of last week and the start of this one there have been other canceled and delayed services and, on a few occasions, I have ended up catching a different train than I had intended to. Though, that's as much to do with me adapting to the new timetable as it is anything else.
Northern staff I have seen, and spoken to, on the ground (the crews at Oxford Road last night in particular) have, while frustrated at the issues they're having to deal with, been going the extra mile to help customers, and I cannot praise them highly enough. This is especially true of the staff on the platform at Salford Crescent when I passed through yesterday who dealt with a rude and abusive gentleman with some considerable skill.

To summarise my experience: yes, there are problems and, yes, those problems can sometimes be frustrating. However, I haven't experienced any more issues with my regular journeys than I would in an average week, and can't fault the efforts of staff on the ground in dealing with the problems which have come up.

Obviously others' experiences may differ, and the current situation is far from perfection, but from my personal perspective it's really not been a big deal.

This is probably the picture for the average passenger ..... despite all the issues we are having, the passengers have generally been able to get to where they wanted even if it wasnt the original train they intended to catch.

 

[74A]

Of course just to add to the madness the afternoon 68 run got cancelled yesterday due I believe lack of Northern driver even though of course the Northern Driver doesn't actually drive the Train, so the train ran ecs with the DRS driver, today the 68's are on the longer diagram which is listed as mostly cancelled and will cause more disruption on the coast.

So ASLEF won't allow the train to run unless there is a Northern driver sitting on the cushions doing nothing. Did they tell the poor passengers this ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So ASLEF won't allow the train to run unless there is a Northern driver sitting on the cushions doing nothing. Did they tell the poor passengers this ?

Is that the reason? If so that is ludicrous.

 

[northwichcat]

One thing I have noticed that despite most of Blackpool Services being substituted by Bus both yesterday and today there seems to very little mention of this fact on Northerns website.

Furness Line an absolute mess today. Many many cancellations with a couple of last minute reinstatements.

Northern's Journey Check site seems to be showing services which end up running and not showing services which end up cancelled. A common one seems to be a service is cancelled due to a crew member being unavailable, for it to actually run very late and then becomes a delayed service due to a crew member being delayed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Furness Line an absolute mess today. Many many cancellations with a couple of last minute reinstatements.

Northern's Journeycheck currently shows:
- 103 Cancellations,
- 65 "Other Service Updates" (starting/terminating short),
- and 18 Train Formation Updates (invariably 2-car short-forms instead of 3/4-car)
https://www.journeycheck.com/northernrail/

Preston-Blackpool gets a blanket exception as it has a "Limited" service with scheduled bus replacements, as every week since the line reopened.
The vast majority of the problems are west of the Pennines and due to "shortage of drivers".

In addition, the route between Selby/Doncaster and Hull is closed because of a collapsed culvert.​

9 routes are said to have Severe Disruption.
6 routes have Minor Disruption.
"All other routes have a Good Service".

 

[Moonshot]

Northern's Journey Check site seems to be showing services which end up running and not showing services which end up cancelled. A common one seems to be a service is cancelled due to a crew member being unavailable, for it to actually run very late and then becomes a delayed service due to a crew member being delayed.

That has been very common...and to add to that , there have been a good number of services where unit, driver and guard have all been where they should be and still been cancelled. That really is a fact

 

[northwichcat]

So ASLEF won't allow the train to run unless there is a Northern driver sitting on the cushions doing nothing. Did they tell the poor passengers this ?

Is that the reason? If so that is ludicrous.

I had enough difficulty explaining to a passenger why his train ran ECS this morning (no guard available, which instantly made him pro-DOO), never mind a service cancelled because there wasn't a second driver to watch the first fully qualified driver!

 

[47802]

Is that the reason? If so that is ludicrous.

More than likely but that's the agreement with the Unions so there isn't much Northern can do unless they tried to get a temporary agreement with the Unions to change that in current situation but I suspect that's very unlikely. You may as well just put a 37 back for the time being it would likely be cheaper to not run the 37 due to driver shortage than not run the 68 due to driver shortage

 

[Carlisle]

never mind a service cancelled because there wasn't a second driver to watch the first fully qualified driver!

If true weren’t we repeatedly assured 25+yrs ago privatisation would soon address precisely these type of anachronisms.

 

[Loop & Link]

I had enough difficulty explaining to a passenger why his train ran ECS this morning (no guard available, which instantly made him pro-DOO), never mind a service cancelled because there wasn't a second driver to watch the first fully qualified driver!

I imagine after talking to you, he didn’t have much choice but to come away from the conversation being pro-DOO.

How did you explain away the Driver shortages?

 

[northwichcat]

I imagine after talking to you, he didn’t have much choice but to come away from the conversation being pro-DOO.

How did you explain away the Driver shortages?

I simply said the service ran through the station without stopping because it couldn't pick up passengers unless there's a guard on board and there wasn't one. No more, no less. Driver shortages were irrelevant as there was clearly a driver taking the train back as an ECS working! He then said "Well they need to bloody well change that then."

 

[Bovverboy]

74A said: ↑
So ASLEF won't allow the train to run unless there is a Northern driver sitting on the cushions doing nothing. Did they tell the poor passengers this ?

Is that the reason? If so that is ludicrous.

I, personally, haven't heard ASLEF's position on this. If the situation is that the DRS driver is qualified to drive the loco, but the northern driver knows the route, that isn't something ASLEF could necessarily be blamed for.

But why is loco haulage needed at the moment anyway? Surely, with the driver shortage as it is, and journeys being missed left, right, and centre, the DMU fleet can't be being fully utilised anyway.

 

[6Gman]

An “emergency” timetable I understand is being devised but it can’t be done overnight especially when you have to allocate train crew (which they are already short of) to those trains.

Well, when some scrotes burnt down a relay room at Soho on Boxing Day some years ago we had an emergency timetable in place in 36 hours.

Including new traincrew diagrams.

(Probably easier under BR though ...)

 

[6Gman]

Quite likely the latter, their planning team is not big and they will be doing their best, but there is only a finite resource.

I fear this is the case.

 

[6Gman]

I, personally, haven't heard ASLEF's position on this. If the situation is that the DRS driver is qualified to drive the loco, but the northern driver knows the route, that isn't something ASLEF could necessarily be blamed for.

Could it be that the DRS driver isn't "passed out" on stopping points at stations and the like?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could it be that the DRS driver isn't "passed out" on stopping points at stations and the like?

I suppose it could be that, which would make some sense, but other posts suggested otherwise.

 

[chorleyjeff]

This is probably the picture for the average passenger ..... despite all the issues we are having, the passengers have generally been able to get to where they wanted even if it wasnt the original train they intended to catch.

Eventually and "generally".
Missed connections. Late for appointments and meetings. Hanging around railway stations with nothing to do.
Oh what fun.
But I admire your determined defence of NR.

 

[Moonshot]

Eventually and "generally".
Missed connections. Late for appointments and meetings. Hanging around railway stations with nothing to do.
Oh what fun.
But I admire your determined defence of NR.

I'm not defending anyone....I'm simply pointing out the reality. I'm better qualified than most on here as I am right at the coalface with Northern. Timetable is up the creek ...but that hasn't stopped the average pax getting from A to B.

 

[underbank]

But why is loco haulage needed at the moment anyway? Surely, with the driver shortage as it is, and journeys being missed left, right, and centre, the DMU fleet can't be being fully utilised anyway.

And indeed why are there still single coach sprinters in use when presumably there are 2/3/4 car sets sat around?

 

[Bovverboy]

I had enough difficulty explaining to a passenger why his train ran ECS this morning (no guard available, which instantly made him pro-DOO), never mind a service cancelled because there wasn't a second driver to watch the first fully qualified driver!

This is outrageous, a journey cancelled through lack of a guard when it's supposedly drivers Northern are short of. This is the greatest argument for introducing an emergency timetable, i.e. at least then optimum use could be made of available drivers/guards/rolling stock.

 

[geoffk]

Is that the reason? If so that is ludicrous.

So does the Grand Central unit, which does a peak Hebden Bridge - Leeds and return, have to have a Northern driver in attendance, even though it's a GC driver and, presumably a GC, guard?

 

[geoffk]

This is outrageous, a journey cancelled through lack of a guard when it's supposedly drivers Northern are short of. This is the greatest argument for introducing an emergency timetable, i.e. at least then optimum use could be made of available drivers/guards/rolling stock.

Some of the delays I experienced last week in Manchester were due to awaiting a guard (in two cases, from Liverpool).

 

[chorleyjeff]

I'm not defending anyone....I'm simply pointing out the reality. I'm better qualified than most on here as I am right at the coalface with Northern. Timetable is up the creek ...but that hasn't stopped the average pax getting from A to B.

That is what I said.
Surely the best qualified to judge service quality are those who pay to travel and expect to get the service advertised.
Must be very depressing to work in a failing service industry when despite best efforts by individuals company failure continues.

 

[fulmar]

So ASLEF won't allow the train to run unless there is a Northern driver sitting on the cushions doing nothing. Did they tell the poor passengers this ?

Nonsense. There is no requirement for Northern drivers to be present on loco hauled services worked by class 68s. The DRS drivers are fully qualified to work the trains by themselves.