FANTASY: If you could decide the routes on ThamesLink

[700007]

Sorry for another ThamesLink related thread - this TOC really is clogging up the forum as of late!

A repeating theme is that a lot of people are not happy with the routes chosen for ThamesLink services since the new timetable change. What would you choose as the routes, given 24tph as the limit through the core? There's definitely things I would keep and things I would change!

If it was up to me, I would go something like this....
Mainline:
2tph Bedford to Brighton (fast north and south, similar to today)
2tph Bedford to Hastings via Redhill and Tonbridge (semi-fast north, semi-fast south)
1tph Bedford to Southampton Central via Redhill and Horsham (fast north and semi-fast south)
1tph Bedford to Portsmouth Harbour via Redhill and Horsham (fast north and semi-fast south)
2tph Ely to Brighton (fast north and fast south)
2tph Cambridge to Dover Priory via Maidstone East (semi-fast north and semi-fast south)
2tph Peterborough to Eastbourne via Gatwick Airport (semi-fast north and fast south)

The Bognor Regis Southern service would become Bognor Regis & Littlehampton every 30 minutes.

1tph Southampton Central / Portsmouth Harbour would call at Bedford, all stations to St. Alban's City, West Hampstead ThamesLink, through the core, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Crawley, Ifield, Faygate, Littlehaven, Horsham and then fast to Barnham, Chichester, Havant and current stops to their final destination.

Whilst it is appreciated that these workings become considerably slower via Redhill, it is worth noting that areas such as Portsmouth, Fareham and Southampton still have access to faster, more frequent services to London. There will be opportunities to catch faster services to London if this is still an inconvenience at places such as Horsham or Gatwick Airport.

1tph Ely to Brighton is semi-fast calling at Royston, Letchworth Garden City, Stevenage, Finsbury Park whilst 1tph is non-stop Cambridge to St. Pancras. The non-stop service calls at Waterbeach.

1tph Bedford to Hastings calls at, from East Croydon, Purley, Redhill, all stations to Tunbridge Wells, West St. Leonard's, St. Leonard's Warrior Square and Hastings.

1tph Bedford to Hastings calls at, from East Croydon, Coulsdon South, Redhill, Tonbridge, High Brooms, Tunbridge Wells, all stations to Hastings.

2tph Hastings to London Charing Cross via Sevenoaks continues to operate as a Southeastern service.

2tph Cambridge to Dover Priory is an extension of the proposed Cambridge to Ashford International. Makes additional stops at Folkestone West, Folkestone Central and Dover Priory.
Metro:
2tph St. Alban's City to Gravesend via Greenwich and Dartford (all stations)
2tph St. Alban's City to Guildford via Mitcham Junction and Sutton (all stations)
2tph Luton to East Grinstead (all stations north, semi-fast south)
2tph Letchworth Garden City to Sutton via Wimbledon (semi-fast north, all stations south)
4tph Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks via Catford (all stations)

2tph St. Alban's City to Gravesend on the basis that the much loved London Charing Cross to Gillingham service is reinstated via Lewisham with the same, if not faster calling pattern than prior to 20th May 2018.

2tph Letchworth Garden City to Sutton calls at Hitchin, Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potters Bar, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Finsbury Park and through the core all stations.

2tph Luton to East Grinstead calls at all stations from Luton to London Bridge, New Cross Gate, Norwood Junction, East Croydon and all stations to East Grinstead. A faster Southern service will continue to operate to London Victoria from East Grinstead 1tph and the existing Uckfield service will supplement this.

What's your fantasy, and what do you think of mine? Worse or better than now, doable with a few changes? Let me know.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I might not be as rail savvy as other posters on here who are more knowledgeable than me, and based on the fact I'm not too familiar with services in some regions, but however I think you've hit the nail on the head with most of your fantasy services! Of course in an ideal world Windmill Junction would be able to cope with the services

Bear in mind for the Hastings service though if it is 12 coaches then it would have to skip St. Leonards Warrior Square as the platforms are short due to it being sandwiched between tunnels

 

[Ianno87]

Driving the entire Thameslink timetable around the single lines between Tonbridge and Hastings (Which is what would be necessary) doesn't sound too clever. Plus the good folk of Tunbridge Wells don't want to go around the houses via Redhill to London (and the journey time to Hastings is long enough as it is...). But timetabling Thamesink, Charing Cross and Cannon Street services over this section would be...challenging. Tunbridge Wells (via the Kent Main Line) was previously rejected as a destination due to its timetable complexity (some very old Thameslink maps show it)

Also, which ones of your services would be peak only, and which would run all day? Remember, Thameslink will only be 24tph for the peaks, dropping to 18tph through the core off-peak.

 

[RichJF]

Hastings won't work. As mentioned before there are long single track sections on the route which will be a timetabling nightmare. All the platforms on the Redhill-Tonbridge stretch are 4 car & so would need SDO for the whole branch.
East Grinstead works more reliably as a self-contained pair of lines with the Uckfield. I've never understood why we need TL on this route?!
Going all the way as a stopping service to Guildford will dissuade passengers & they'll continue to use SWR & change in London as it would probably be faster.
Likewise Portsmouth Harbour/Eastbourne are a long way out into the country and I'd be surprised if they weren't regularly cancelled short due to problems in the core.

A reliable TL network needs about 4/5 dedicated routes with highly modern, reliable infrastructure that everyone knows with an almost metro-like frequency rather than a multitude of destinations with 1/2 tph where every train could in theory be held up by other operators/infrastructure failings etc

Mainline
Bedford - Brighton
Cambridge - Brighton
Bedford - Horsham (via Redhill)
Bedford - Ashford Intl (via Maidstone East)

Metro
St Albans - Sevenoaks
Bedford/Luton - Sutton
Blackfriars - Wimbledon
Blackfriars - Orpington

 

[Agent_Squash]

4tph Brighton-Cambridge
4tph Brighton-Bedford
2tph Horsham-Peterborough
2tph Littlehampton-Bedford
4tph Sutton-Welwyn Garden City
4tph Wimbledon-Luton
4tph Sevenoaks-St Albans City

Based on being fully clockface. Sevenoaks services will run via LBG. During the day, Brighton services will both reduce to 2tph each and Sutton Loop services will reduce to 3tph.

 

[LLivery]

Bedford to Brighton - 2tph (All stns to St Albans, West H, Core, E Croydon, Gatwick, Three Bridges, Haywards)
Bedford to Horsham - 2tph (All stns to St Albans, Core, Norwood Jun, E Croydon, Purley, all stns)
King's Lynn to Brighton - 2tph (All stns to Cambridge, Finsbury, Core, E Croydon, Gatwick, all stns)
Peterborough to Dartford - 2tph (All stns to Stevenage, Welwyn GC, Finsbury, Core, all stns via Greenwich)

Corby to Coulsdon Town - 2tph (Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton Air, St Albans, Core, all stns via Sydenham)

Luton to Sutton via Wimbledon - 2tph (all stns)
St Albans City to Sutton via Mitcham - 2tph (all stns)
Luton to Sevenoaks - 2tph (all stns)
Gordon Hill or Hertford North to Orpington via Catford - 2tph (all stns)

Overnight
Bedford to Three Bridges - 2tph (all stns to St Albans, West Hampstead, Core, E Croydon, Purley, Gatwick)
Luton to Epsom via Mitcham - 2tph (all stns)
Hertford N to Three Bridges 2- tph (all stns to Alexandra Palace, Finsbury, Core, all stns to E Croydon via Sydenham, Gatwick) - Friday & Saturday only

I wouldn't have long distance Southeastern routes to limit the knock-on delays.

 

[NorthKent1989]

MAINLINE:
4tph Bedford to Brighton, 2tph all stations to St. Albans fast to West Hampstead Thameslink, the core, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Hayward’s Heath and Brighton, 2tph same stops North but South I would include New Cross Gate, Norwood Junction, Redhill and all stops south of Three Bridges

2tph Peterborough to Portsmouth: all stations to Stevenage, Finsbury Park, the core, Elephant & Castle, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Sutton, Epsom, Dorking, Horsham then all stops to Portsmouth

2tph Cambridge to Littlehampton, all stations to Stevenage, Welwyn, Finsbury, the core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport all stations to Hove then skip stop to Littlehampton

2tph: Bedford to East Grinstead, all stops to St. Albans, the core,
London Bridge, New Cross Gate, East Croydon then all stops to EG

2tph Cambridge to Guildford, all stations to Stevenage, Finsbury, the core, London Bridge, West Croydon, Wallington, Sutton, all stations to Guildford

METRO:
2tph: Luton to Sutton Loop

2tph: St. Albans to Sevenoaks all stops via Catford

2toh Stevenage to Orpington, selected stations in the north, the core, Elephant and Castle, then all stations to Orpington via Catford

 

[whittlesfordok]

Everyone is missing Cambridge North

 

[adrock1976]

I would have something along the likes of:

4 x Bedford - Brighton, with 2 trains every 30 minutes via Redhill.
2 x Luton - Beckenham Junction via Tulse Hill and Crystal Palace. Operated by 8 car 700s.
2 x St Albans City - Caterham via Norwood Junction
2 x Kentish Town - Sevenoaks via Catford and Swanley
2 x Kentish Town - Bellingham, Swanley, or Chatham via Catford

2 x Cambridge North - Horsham via Mitcham Junction and Epsom. Local stations Shepreth Branch operated by 8 car 700s.
2 x Huntingdon - Epsom Downs via Mitcham Junction
2 x Gordon Hill - Horsham via Norwood Junction and Redhill
2 x Welwyn Garden City - Tattenham Corner via Norwood Junction

4 x Blackfriars - Sutton via Wimbledon - perhaps transfer to London Overground?

I would need to think it through better to see if there would be anything better.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I would have something along the likes of:

4 x Bedford - Brighton, with 2 trains every 30 minutes via Redhill.
2 x Luton - Beckenham Junction via Tulse Hill and Crystal Palace. Operated by 8 car 700s.
2 x St Albans City - Caterham via Norwood Junction
2 x Kentish Town - Sevenoaks via Catford and Swanley
2 x Kentish Town - Bellingham, Swanley, or Chatham via Catford

2 x Cambridge North - Horsham via Mitcham Junction and Epsom. Local stations Shepreth Branch operated by 8 car 700s.
2 x Huntingdon - Epsom Downs via Mitcham Junction
2 x Gordon Hill - Horsham via Norwood Junction and Redhill
2 x Welwyn Garden City - Tattenham Corner via Norwood Junction

4 x Blackfriars - Sutton via Wimbledon - perhaps transfer to London Overground?

I would need to think it through better to see if there would be anything better.

Would the Hertford Loop really benefit from having TL services as well as London Overground, as will be the case soon?

 

[LLivery]

Would the Hertford Loop really benefit from having TL services as well as London Overground, as will be the case soon?

LO won't make much difference, just orange stations, more staff and an attempt to close ticket offices.

 

[Agent_Squash]

LO won't make much difference, just orange stations, more staff and an attempt to close ticket offices.

With an intense 717 service though?

 

[bramling]

Would the Hertford Loop really benefit from having TL services as well as London Overground, as will be the case soon?

Yes I think it would. The current 6-car service is heavily overcrowded during the peaks, overall I suspect by far the worst on GN. There’s no prospect of longer trains into Moorgate, so the only prospect of extra capacity - needed now - is resignalling (and it’s a bit of an unknown exactly how much extra this might bring) or diversion of Welwyn services, which themselves can also be overcrowded although generally not quite as bad. A handful of 8-car 700s would be a game-changer for the Hertford loop.

 

[LLivery]

With an intense 717 service though?

It won't get any more intense than currently planned when under LO because of Northern City capcity. Honestly, I think Thameslink is too focused on the counties and not the suburbs but understand there needs to be a balance.

Yes I think it would. The current 6-car service is heavily overcrowded during the peaks, overall I suspect by far the worst on GN. There’s no prospect of longer trains into Moorgate, so the only prospect of extra capacity - needed now - is resignalling (and it’s a bit of an unknown exactly how much extra this might bring) or diversion of Welwyn services, which themselves can also be overcrowded although generally not quite as bad. A handful of 8-car 700s would be a game-changer for the Hertford loop.

I proposed Gordon Hill to Orpington for that exact reason. I would also like Sydenham Corridor slows because the ELL is horrendous at peaks and the planned 2 extra tph to Crystal Palace won't cut it for long. May not be popular but I'd scrap Littlehampton.

 

[Antman]

Off the top of my head, and this is just jottings on a beer mat rather than anything scientific.

I wouldn't agree with Hastings via Redhill and Tonbridge as it's a bit too long winded aside from any other problems but I think one an hour via Sevenoaks is viable.

Bedford to Brighton 4tph much the same as now.
St Albans to Sutton loop 4tph
Luton to Gravesend (not Rainham!) 2tph
Corby to Eastbourne via Lewes 1tph
Corby to Littlehampton via Worthing 1tph
Kings Lynn to Ashford (and possibly Dover?) via London Bridge and Maidstone East 1tph
Ely to Hastings via London Bridge and Tonbridge 1tph
Peterborough to Southampton via Horsham 1tph
Peterborough to Portsmouth via Horsham 1tph
Cambridge to Dartford via London Bridge and Sidcup 2tph
Kentish Town to Sevenoaks via Catford and Swanley 2tph
Hertford North to Orpington via Catford 2tph
Welwyn Garden City to Beckenham Junction via Lewisham and Catford Bridge 2tph

I don't really see much need for a service to East Grinstead and if 24tph is viable at peak times may as well make use of the full capacity throughout the day? Plenty of opportunities for leisure time travel journeys.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I’ve had a rethink and I think it could go like this:

MAINLINE:
1: Bedford to Brighton 6tph, 2tph fast from St. Albans into the core, then London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges and Brighton, 2tph semi fast, in the north trains additionally call at Mill Hill and West Hampstead, in the South it’s all stations from Three Bridges, 2tph stopping service, all stations in the North, then after London Bridge it’s New Cross Gate, Norwood Junction, East Croydon, Purley, Redhill then all stations

2: Peterborough to Dover Priory 2tph, all stations to Stevenage then Finsbury Park, the core, Elephant and Castle, Herne Hill, Beckenham Junction, Bromley South fast to Maidstone East, Ashford Intl, Folkestone West and Dover Priory

3: Cambridge to Tunbridge Wells 2tph, all stations to Hitchin, Stevenage fast to Finsbury Park the core, Elephant and Castle, Denmark Hill, Bromley South, Orpington, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells

4: Luton to Guildford 2tph, all stations to Mill Hill, West Hampstead the core London Bridge, West Croydon, Wallington, Sutton, Epsom, then all stops to Guildford

METRO:
St. Albans to Dorking 2tph, via E&C and Sutton, all station

Stevenage to Gravesend 2tph, via London Bridge and Sidcup, fast from London Bridge to Hither Green

Welwyn to Sutton 2tph, via London Bridge, Sydenham and West Croydon

Luton to Plumstead 2tph via London Bridge

 

[Royston Vasey]

Managing Cambridge to Brighton 1 tpd would be a start right now

 

[physics34]

West Croydon to Kentish Town 12 tph, all stops, thats it.

 

[NorthKent1989]

To be honest the Coulsdon Town to London Bridge via Sydenham service could be extended to Luton, replacing the service to Rainham, it could still all stations to London Bridge there is no reason why this can't work, also I agree with having the Southern Beckenham Junction route diverted into the Core to terminate at Kentish Town or somewhere further north.

Thameslink shouldn't concentrate so much on London Bridge SE routes, the SE routes can be routed via E&C.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Brighton to London Bridge.
Bedford to St Pancras.

 

[MrCub]

The old timetable. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[CMS]

Deleted

 

[Agent_Squash]

Brighton to London Bridge.
Bedford to St Pancras.

There’s no room to terminate at St P. Where do they go?

 

[700007]

Based on feedback and a few other ideas that I've transpired, I've made some revisions to my fantasy.

Changes are in red, pinks means it does not run through the core.

Mainline:
2tph Bedford to Brighton (fast north and south, similar to today)
1tph Bedford to Southampton Central via Redhill and Horsham (fast north and semi-fast south)
1tph Bedford to Portsmouth Harbour via Redhill and Horsham (fast north and semi-fast south)
2tph Cambridge to Brighton (fast north and fast south)
2tph Cambridge North to Dover Priory via Maidstone East (semi-fast north and semi-fast south)
2tph Peterborough to Eastbourne via Gatwick Airport (semi-fast north and fast south)

The Bognor Regis Southern service would become Bognor Regis & Littlehampton every 30 minutes.

1tph Southampton Central / Portsmouth Harbour would call at Bedford, all stations to St. Alban's City, West Hampstead ThamesLink, through the core, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Crawley, Ifield, Faygate, Littlehaven, Horsham and then fast to Barnham, Chichester, Havant and current stops to their final destination.

Whilst it is appreciated that these workings become considerably slower via Redhill, it is worth noting that areas such as Portsmouth, Fareham and Southampton still have access to faster, more frequent services to London. There will be opportunities to catch faster services to London if this is still an inconvenience at places such as Horsham or Gatwick Airport.

2tph Cambridge to Brighton calls at Royston, Baldock, Letchworth Garden City, Hitchin, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, through the core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Preston Park and Brighton.

2tph Bedford to Brighton calls at Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St. Alban's City, non-stop to St Pancras, through the core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Haywards Heath, Wivelsfield, Hassocks, Preston Park and Brighton.

2tph Cambridge North to Dover Priory is an extension of the proposed Cambridge to Ashford International. The service is revised to call at Cambridge, Foxton, Shepreth, Meldreth, Royston, Ashwell & Morden, Baldock, Letchworth Garden City, Hitchin, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, through the core, London Bridge, Bromley South, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Otford, West Malling, Maidstone East, Bearsted, Ashford International, Westenhanger, Sandling, Folkestone West, Folkestone Central and Dover Priory.

2tph Peterborough to Eastbourne calls at Huntingdon, St. Neots, Sandy, Biggleswade, Arlesey, Hitchin, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, through the core, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Haywards Heath, Balcombe, Plumpton, Cooksbridge, Lewes, Polegate, Hampden Park and Eastbourne.

Metro:
2tph St. Alban's City to Rochester via Greenwich and Dartford (all stations)
2tph St. Alban's City to Epsom Downs via Mitcham Junction and Sutton (all stations)
2tph Luton to Horsham (all stations north, semi-fast south)
2tph Hertford North to Sutton via Wimbledon (all stations)
4tph Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks via Catford (all stations)
2tph West Hampstead Thameslink to Orpington via Lewisham, New Beckenham and Beckenham Junction (all stations, Monday to Saturday daytimes only)
2tph Letchworth Garden City to Maidstone East (semi-fast north, semi-fast south).
2tph London Blackfriars to Wimbledon (all stations) to provide 4tph London Blackfriars to Wimbledon.
2tph London Blackfriars to Beckenham Junction (all stations). Extended to and from West Hampstead Thameslink evenings and Sundays.

2tph St. Alban's City to Rochester on the basis that the much loved London Charing Cross to Gillingham service is reinstated via Lewisham with the same, if not faster calling pattern than prior to 20th May 2018.

2tph Hertford North to Sutton calls at all stations. This will replace 2tph Hertford North to Moorgate, with freed 717s performing a more frequent service to Welwyn Garden City and/or Gordon Hill. Platform extensions will take place at all 'busy' stations to facilitate 8-car trains. Quieter stations will operate SDO (such as Bayford, Cuffley, Crews Hill and Grange Park).

2tph Luton to Horsham calls at all stations from Luton to London Bridge, New Cross Gate, Norwood Junction, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Crawley, Ifield, (Faygate), Littlehaven and Horsham.

2tph Letchworth Garden City to Maidstone East calls at Hitchin, Stevenage, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park, through the core, London Bridge, Bromley South, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Otford, Kemsing, Borough Green & Wrotham, West Malling, East Malling, Barming and Maidstone East.

2tph London Blackfriars to Wimbledon runs all day Monday to Saturday and replaces the peak time Southern services from London Bridge.

 

[backontrack]

2tph Letchworth Garden City to Maidstone East calls at Hitchin, Stevenage, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park, through the core, London Bridge, Bromley South, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Otford, Kemsing, Borough Green & Wrotham, West Malling, East Malling, Barming and Maidstone East.

So you'd close Knebworth?

 

[700007]

So you'd close Knebworth?

Oh shoot, yes it would call at Knebworth too!

 

[DaveN]

There’s no room to terminate at St P. Where do they go?

We just take back control of some of the Eurostar platforms at St Pancras. You could also re-open the Farringdon to Moorgate branch and terminate the peak extra services there.

As London Bridge is short of terminating capacity now too, we could build a new 6 platform terminating station on top of City Thameslink and call it Holborn Viaduct

 

[700007]

Yeah I can't lie, it would be incredibly useful if they had found a way for the Moorgate service to stay because some trains could terminate there.

 

[Steveo77]

4tph on Wimbledon loop

actually base on this morning my current fantasy would be 2tph

current actual service 1t every 2 hours

 

[DarloRich]

I would squash as many serveries as I could per hour through the core. I don't really mind where the trains go to terminate after that. I would be tempted to limit the geographical extent of those terminating locations to help with service resilience & depot requirements. I would, however, try to run a simple clock face timetable with trains to those terminating locations at the same minutes every hour and try and spread out the load.