Northern's Problems in the North West

[Baxenden Bank]

Windermere line performance over the past 4 weeks:

week commencing Sunday 29 April
33.04% cancelled

week commencing Sunday 6 May
9.47% cancelled wholly excluding a strike day
16.96% cancelled including a strike day

week commencing Sunday 13 May
20.54% cancelled

week commencing Sunday 20 May
38.82% cancelled wholly excluding 2 strike days
45.45% cancelled including 2 strike days

Friday 25th - just 2 departures after 0937 at 1232 and 1945!

 

[Red Devil]

Lots of cancellations, short forming and alterations in and out of Liverpool Lime Street today...

And will be every forthcoming Sunday. Increased Sunday work with no increase in drivers to to do it.
ASLEF approached company regarding Sundays inside, company rejected that proposal as too costly.

 

[driver_m]

Northern could always get drivers from other TOC's to conduct them over the routes if they're struggling with the routes rather than the traction. Trouble is, that would cost money wouldn't it?.....

 

[Bertie the bus]

This is going to cost Northern a fortune. Ignoring the debate about whether cancelling trains is cheaper than the alternatives; passengers are going to desert the railway in their droves.

The North isn’t the South East and many will have viable alternatives.

 

[jayah]

I changed my plan to go to Preston from Saturday to Friday, in part so I could experience the new timetable on a "normal day" rather than a strike and engineering affected journey.

One of the delights of the new timetable is that I can get from CHU to Wigan without changing trains. 2W06 was 6 late away from Alderley but this was because it was waiting for the ATW late running service to pass. This is no different to the previous situation when this was an Alderley - Piccadilly shuttle. Donkey 142028 was the unit. At MCO, I was pleased to see both guard and driver waiting on the platform and after a snappy stop we were away and finally reached Wigan NW 8L. There were 2 opposite direction trains queuing up to get into the corridor at Castlefield and Water St....

Continuing to Preston, 1N84 had left LIV RT but had dropped 12 minutes by WGN - looks like it was held up by a late running 319 all-shack stopper ahead. The unit on this was solo 142003 rather than a pathed 319 and it was full with some standing although I managed to find a seat. We arrived 18L at Preston after some signal checks and the train swiftly left for BPN.

My journey hadn't been bad considering what has been going on. Preston station was busy - lots of delays and cancellations. The PA there was going full time and I guess that there wasn't a period longer than 30 seconds in the 30 minutes I was there when it wasn't saying something - mainly "We are sorry...." as Northern schedules were mostly up the spout. There were a number of perplexed looking Northern train crew hanging around looking for their units and conversely a 319 hanging around as there was no crew...However, there were loads of staff on the platforms helping passengers out.

Next was down the WCML to Warrington for a pub visit and then it was back to Warrington Central to get back to CHU. RTT indicated that there were a few trains back to Manchester - the very late 1H42 (52L) being the first so I boarded that (156429) with the guard announcing here and at Birchwood that this was not the all shacks stopper originally due around the same time. I was a bit worried when we pulled into Platform 3 at MCO where trains are often abandoned. But we carried on after a short stop.

At Piccadilly, the by now usual chaos and conflicting information was on display. On one all-departures board, the Alderley Edge train running nearly 40 late was shown as destination Stockport, so indicating an early termination; on another board it was not shown at all. In the end it never made Piccadilly as it was terminated at Oxford Rd.

The 1901 Crewe was shown as delayed with a sole 319 in the platform with the PIS on the platform showing Empty to Depot. It was eventually caped, but not before I cut my losses, caught a Pendolino to Stockport and then a bus home - no problem if you have an TfGM old gits pass.

So looking at MAN-CHU last night is a microcosm of all that is going wrong. The xx37 is ex Wigan and its timekeeping has been appalling all week as it gets stuck coming down the Castlefield corridor. The rest of the departures start at MAN.

• 1637 dep MAN 40L arr CHU 41L (was 2L at the Crescent and 37L at MCO!)
• 1644 dep MAN 1L arr CHU 1L
• 1701 dep MAN RT arr CHU RT
• 1721 dep MAN 1L arr CHU 5L
• 1737 dep MAN 15L arr CHU 22 late (was RT at the Crescent)
• 1744 dep MAN 4L arr CHU 2L
• 1801 dep MAN RT arr CHU 4L
• 1837 - cancelled - terminated at MCO when running 42L
• 1844 dep MAN 8L arr CHU 4L,
• 1901 - cancelled throughout due to a decision by the train operating company
• 1937 dep MAN 12L after being 3L at Deansgate, arr CHU 15L
• 1944 dep MAN 25L, arr 24L at CHU (and terminated at MAC).
• 2001 dep MAN 21L arr CHU 22L
• 2037 cancelled throughout from Wigan to Alderley
• 2044 dep MAN RT 1 late at CHU - shock horror
• 2101 dep MAN 4L 3 late at CHU

This is absolutely unacceptable and is bound to drive people off the rails and back into their cars. Teething troubles according to Grayling - what an idiot. Hopefully Burham will be dragging him up here to see the chaos in all its glory, but I'm not holding my breath.

I wonder what next week will bring?

CW

This is Northern's problem to fix not Grayling. He doesn't micro manage day to day operations.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It might not be his problem to solve but it would be nice to think the man in charge of transport in this country appreciated the severity of the problems, took them seriously and was prepared to take some action other than laying the whole blame at Network Rail’s door. It also is his problem in that most people in the North are probably already pretty sick of the same old line about more investment in the railway than any time since the Victorian era when the service is going down the pan.

 

[randyrippley]

Investment in the railway in the north? What are the two big recent projects?
We've got a newly electrified line into Blackpool that can't be used due to no drivers. Unless you're one of the few who want to go to London - then you can catch a nice empty Pendolino
And a new link line around Manchester that can't be used due to capacity constraints that were obvious at the planning stage. And there aren't any drivers........

 

[jayah]

It might not be his problem to solve but it would be nice to think the man in charge of transport in this country appreciated the severity of the problems, took them seriously and was prepared to take some action other than laying the whole blame at Network Rail’s door. It also is his problem in that most people in the North are probably already pretty sick of the same old line about more investment in the railway than any time since the Victorian era when the service is going down the pan.

They are spending (investing) a fortune. However most of it is going on poles and wires which are not needed.

 

[B&I]

They are spending (investing) a fortune. However most of it is going on poles and wires which are not needed.

I'm glad to see that the anti-electrification bandwagon has now rolled into the north of England. Tell me, should I ask them to take the wires down on my local route, send the 319s back and return to double 142s, if we were lucky ?

 

[B&I]

This is Northern's problem to fix not Grayling. He doesn't micro manage day to day operations.

What's the point of him, if he can't solve the problems which lead to passengers getting a rubbish service ?

 

[B&I]

The greatest gap I can find between successive departures for Liverpool is of 55 minutes - between 1635 (NT) and 1730 (TPE), the reason for that gap being the termination at Victoria of the intervening ex-Scarborough train. The ex-Scarborough train should have departed Victoria for Liverpool at 1656, so you can only blame NT/TPE for delaying you by 34 minutes.

On the basis of actually being there, I will explain. The 16.30 Northern never showed up. I don't know what happened to it. The 16.56 TPE was cancelled. I was therefore delayed approximately 59 minutes, when the 17.24 TPE left. Not entirely sure as I was too busy trying to board a single train carrying 3 trains' worth of people to check the exact time.

 

[CHAPS2034]

This is Northern's problem to fix not Grayling. He doesn't micro manage day to day operations.

You are quite correct - his civil servants do.

Ever had anything to do with briefing ministers then? If so you will know how it works with the civil servants deciding most of the policy and sending it up for approval.

Grayling is just a "here-today, gone-tomorrow" politician as Sir Robin Day once said - to John Nott I think.

It might not be his problem to solve but it would be nice to think the man in charge of transport in this country appreciated the severity of the problems, took them seriously and was prepared to take some action other than laying the whole blame at Network Rail’s door. It also is his problem in that most people in the North are probably already pretty sick of the same old line about more investment in the railway than any time since the Victorian era when the service is going down the pan.

Exactly; he's trying to lay the blame elsewhere. He should stand up and be counted - but he won't because he's a very good politician and adept at dodging the c*ap heading in his direction.

I'm glad to see that the anti-electrification bandwagon has now rolled into the north of England. Tell me, should I ask them to take the wires down on my local route, send the 319s back and return to double 142s, if we were lucky ?

Come on B&I - a double donkey? You are being a bit ambitious!

CW

 

[jayah]

You are quite correct - his civil servants do.

Ever had anything to do with briefing ministers then? If so you will know how it works with the civil servants deciding most of the policy and sending it up for approval.

Grayling is just a "here-today, gone-tomorrow" politician as Sir Robin Day once said - to John Nott I think.

CW

Which is why I chuckle when people say we should have a commission of experts to decide which 1,000 miles of railway should be electrified next. Investment is already decided by 'experts' even if they should have realised 5 years ago what they have twigged these last 18 months that you can get all of the benefit for a fraction of the cost. When Grayling sits in the jolly old house and says: 'I don't think spending £500m running the same trains from Cardiff to Swansea on the same timetable' is a good use of taxpayers money, it is his voice and their words.

As for Northern, perhaps I am being too light on them, he could point out the sum of their franchise bond uprated for inflation and gently remind them that they will be explaining to their shareholders why they have lost all of it if the current shambles isn't sorted out PDQ. That usually helps focus minds!

 

[jayah]

I'm glad to see that the anti-electrification bandwagon has now rolled into the north of England. Tell me, should I ask them to take the wires down on my local route, send the 319s back and return to double 142s, if we were lucky ?

I think you've missed the point of Bi-modes? If you have them use them, but it is certainly not worth £10m/route mile adding more.

 

[jayah]

What's the point of him, if he can't solve the problems which lead to passengers getting a rubbish service ?

Even in the days of BR it was not the job of the SoS to answer for such operational difficulties. If it were, the railway might end up in real trouble, like the NHS.

 

[marcouk2]

Just been announced at Piccadilly that all northern services to Lime Street and Blackpool North have been suspended for the evening and that tickets will be accepted for tomorrow, no word on what passengers are meant to do tonight!

 

[js1000]

This is going to cost Northern a fortune. Ignoring the debate about whether cancelling trains is cheaper than the alternatives; passengers are going to desert the railway in their droves.

The North isn’t the South East and many will have viable alternatives.

The problems experienced on services to Manchester Airport this week sum up Northern's problems.

Not punctual enough for those needing to catch a flight and not reliable enough for commuter passengers along the line with trains often cancelled at stopping station.

Both aviation and commuter passengers will abandon the services if they can't be trusted. I think Northern are unwise to disregard that and need to convey their serious concerns to DfT and Network Rail.

 

[js1000]

Just been announced at Piccadilly that all northern services to Lime Street and Blackpool North have been suspended for the evening and that tickets will be accepted for tomorrow, no word on what passengers are meant to do tonight!

Not good. I hope those Ed Sheeran fans from Liverpool and Blackpool attending that concert tonight have got a hotel room in Manchester booked!

 

[td97]

Just been announced at Piccadilly that all northern services to Lime Street and Blackpool North have been suspended for the evening and that tickets will be accepted for tomorrow, no word on what passengers are meant to do tonight!

It's a shame Virgin aren't calling at Piccadilly this weekend since their Liverpool trains are on the Stockport/Chat Moss diversion route

 

[marcouk2]

It's a shame Virgin aren't calling at Piccadilly this weekend since their Liverpool trains are on the Stockport/Chat Moss diversion route

Yup just watched a Pendo roll through.

Spotted a 2145 stp bus service to Blackpool in the system, Liverpool passengers have been told to make their way to Victoria for a TPE service.

 

[CHAPS2034]

Not good. I hope those Ed Sheeran fans from Liverpool and Blackpool attending that concert tonight have got a hotel room in Manchester booked!

Won't Northern have to provide alternative transport then?

This whole thing lurches from bad to worse.

It's a shame Virgin aren't calling at Piccadilly this weekend since their Liverpool trains are on the Stockport/Chat Moss diversion route

Excellent idea. But is it allowed? And if so how difficult would it be to get something in place quickly?

By the way, all the CHU local services today have been RT or near enough - anything to do with the fact that the diagrams all originate or terminate at Piccadilly?

 

[Bungle965]

I have seen it numerous times on their journey check page where it shows the last service of the day being cancelled and there being no additional information as to replacement transport.
Take for example 22:30 Manchester Victoria to Halifax this evening, has been cancelled due to a shortage of drivers. This is the last service east of Rochdale and there is no information on Northern's website as to any replacement transport.
Perhaps it is relying on people to use help points if at unstaffed stations for them to be given alternative transport there and then as control as simply too busy.
Sam

 

[Grumpy]

Not good. I hope those Ed Sheeran fans from Liverpool and Blackpool attending that concert tonight have got a hotel room in Manchester booked!

Daughter went to concert on Saturday night. She said that Victoria was a shambles afterwards, trains cancelled and no-one seemingly in charge or knowing what was going on. Lots of distressed passengers. Eventually she and her friends were provided with taxis back to Leeds. Long time before these people will use the railway again and will be telling their friends.

 

[muz379]

Well both an 11 car or 9 car would fit assuming the mid platform signal was cleared . But the platforms are curved along their length so it would be a case of multiple dispatchers . I'm guessing the only reason they have not stopped there is because its not a normal service , whereas stopping at Stockport is probably for crew changes given not all crew will sign chat moss .

 

[northernchris]

Just been announced at Piccadilly that all northern services to Lime Street and Blackpool North have been suspended for the evening and that tickets will be accepted for tomorrow, no word on what passengers are meant to do tonight!

A temporary timetable really does need to be implemented now. Northern must be able to work out what they have sufficient crew to run on each route which would then also mean units are then in use rather than parked somewhere without a driver. It seemed to work with Arriva Trains Northern when they were short on crew

 

[jayah]

Just been announced at Piccadilly that all northern services to Lime Street and Blackpool North have been suspended for the evening and that tickets will be accepted for tomorrow, no word on what passengers are meant to do tonight!

Ask station staff to book alternative transport and failing that a hotel.

If they refuse pay yourself and take them to court under the National Conditions of Travel s28.

 

[Bungle965]

Ask station staff to book alternative transport and failing that a hotel.

If they refuse pay yourself and take them to court under the National Conditions of Travel s28.

Of course before you go all guns blazing into court, you could send them an email asking for a refund for the hotel room or taxi.
Then start considering more serious courses of action if they refuse a refund.
Sam

 

[notlob.divad]

It sounds a shambles once again. Are they at least making an effort to get the correct trains in the correct places to run something like a proper service tomorrow morning?

 

[jayah]

Of course before you go all guns blazing into court, you could send them an email asking for a refund for the hotel room or taxi.
Then start considering more serious courses of action if they refuse a refund.
Sam

You could, but it would not be unreasonable to ask for damages on top given they had already been asked and already refused.

 

[Mathew S]

You could, but it would not be unreasonable to ask for damages on top given they had already been asked and already refused.

I'm not sure that any court would entertain a call for damages like that unless there were truly exceptional circumstances. Any and all costs you'd incurred would be fine, but any claim over and above that would seem very optimistic indeed.