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Transpennine first digital mainline.....

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WestRiding

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Having just purchased the latest Rail magazine, it makes reference to Transpennine Route been the first digital mainline. When exactly is this planned to happen, and why, given the amount of money currently been spent resignalling Huddersfield and the Calder Valley onto two work stations using westcad in York?
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Most of this is hype, from a Network Rail/DfT presentation recently in York.
If you read Roger Ford's article on digital railway in June Modern Railways, it gives some idea of what is going on.
Transpennine is a designated digital route, but no specific plans have been developed or approved.
It has all the hallmarks of DfT wanting to show that investment in the North hasn't stopped because of the delayed electrification scheme.
Nobody quite knows what is possible or likely, but it will be about increasing capacity at pinchpoints.
It MIGHT be ETCS through the Castlefield corridor (Victoria-Oxford Road-Piccadilly in Manchester).
It MIGHT be ETCS Huddersfield-Stalybridge through Standedge tunnel (currently ancient semaphores at Diggle).
Or it may be something else.
I doubt it is going to happen quickly, as Network Rail do not yet have detailed plans.
Crewe and Feltham are two other designated digital schemes (based on it being cheaper than conventional resignalling), and there will be a scheme in Scotland.
 

gimmea50anyday

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Semaphores at Diggle? Where?

All MAS last time I ran thru Diggle, otherwise my route card is out of date...
 

rebmcr

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Is the Cambrian Line not a mainline? What about the Thameslink Core?

Perhaps they mean the first digital "inter-regional route".
 

NSEFAN

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I thought that most of the trasnpennine capacity problems were due to the amount of mixed traffic, i.e. there's not enough loops. How would ETCS and such solve that?
 

Bantamzen

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I thought that most of the trasnpennine capacity problems were due to the amount of mixed traffic, i.e. there's not enough loops. How would ETCS and such solve that?

If there problems the TOCs can ring tech support who will firstly suggest turning it off and on again, and when that doesn't work they'll tell you they'll get there as soon as possible. Two days later....

Seriously though I shouldn't worry, the public sector's idea of digital is two thousand meetings, 60 PowerPoint presentations, 2.6 million emails, several hundred million pounds, and billions of contextually incorrect references to the word "digital". Then eventually someone like me will come along & point out that digital solutions require, well digital solutions and the project managers will look perplexed, there will be a massive reshuffle of positions and the whole process will start again.....

Oh, did I type that out loud....?? ;)
 

Mollman

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I can't see the point of removing the line-side signalling as it doesn't really fit into the two categories this is useful for:
1. High speed line (above 135 mph although even above 100 has been questioned in the past)
2. Metro operation where all rolling stock has the same charactoristics

Digital in this sense will probably be the use of Driver Advisory Systems which is where it gives a advised speed to travel at to avoid being signal checked. On top of this there are a few extra bits in the signal box (sorry ROC) to aid with planning at times of disruption.
 

Ships

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I can't see the point of removing the line-side signalling as it doesn't really fit into the two categories this is useful for:
1. High speed line (above 135 mph although even above 100 has been questioned in the past)
2. Metro operation where all rolling stock has the same charactoristics

Digital in this sense will probably be the use of Driver Advisory Systems which is where it gives a advised speed to travel at to avoid being signal checked. On top of this there are a few extra bits in the signal box (sorry ROC) to aid with planning at times of disruption.

Solves issues of signal sighting on quite a curvy route. Digital would be ertms
Level 2 or TM I would think.
 

jyte

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I can't see the point of removing the line-side signalling as it doesn't really fit into the two categories this is useful for:
1. High speed line (above 135 mph although even above 100 has been questioned in the past)
2. Metro operation where all rolling stock has the same charactoristics

Digital in this sense will probably be the use of Driver Advisory Systems which is where it gives a advised speed to travel at to avoid being signal checked. On top of this there are a few extra bits in the signal box (sorry ROC) to aid with planning at times of disruption.
There are many more advantages to a 'digital' (or really level 1/2/3 ERTMS system) than the two you've posted above.
 

Maurice3000

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I thought that most of the trasnpennine capacity problems were due to the amount of mixed traffic, i.e. there's not enough loops. How would ETCS and such solve that?
In principle ETCS should make converting a stretch to bi-directional a lot easier as a eurobalise doesn't care in which direction a train passes it, it's just the ROC that needs to know the direction of travel.

Whether converting some parts of this route to bi-directional would solve some of its capacity problems I wouldn't be able to answer, I don't know the route that well.
 

Joseph_Locke

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In principle ETCS should make converting a stretch to bi-directional a lot easier as a eurobalise doesn't care in which direction a train passes it, it's just the ROC that needs to know the direction of travel.

Whether converting some parts of this route to bi-directional would solve some of its capacity problems I wouldn't be able to answer, I don't know the route that well.

Highly unlikely to solve the issues of operating a frequent limited stop and sporadic all-stations service with freight on a very hilly and extremely twisty two-track railway in and out of the valley of doom (aka Leeds West Junction)
 

HSTEd

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I can't see the point of removing the line-side signalling as it doesn't really fit into the two categories this is useful for:
1. High speed line (above 135 mph although even above 100 has been questioned in the past)
2. Metro operation where all rolling stock has the same charactoristics

What about?
3. Areas where the layout is complex and a signal could conceivably be confused with an adjacent one on a gantry - as at Ladbroke Grove.

4. Areas where line speeds are limited by sighting restrictions, as opposed to the almost comical, and expensive, proliferation of banner signals as is necessary today.

5. Areas where future vegetation growth would neccesitate expensive and unpopular cutting works. Or where adverse weather could make it harder to maintain spatial awareness.

There are many more benefits to cab signalling than just in metro and high speed operation
 

MarkyT

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Bidirectional might give some extra overtaking opportunities, but only if there are crossovers existing or provided new in the right places. Under ETCS, bi-di still has to be consciously designed into the interlocking, although with only additional block markers instead of bang road signals, the incremental cost might be smaller than with signals. it might be possible to retain some signals in the normal operating direction on each track, with blocks further subdivided around station areas to allow better closing up through platforms. This would retain capability for small numbers of non ETCS equipped trains at off peak times perhaps or to provide a 'fail back' to keep trains moving at least in the event of radio or some other system failure; this is how the Thameslink core is configured. The reverse direction moves might only be configured with ETCS, hence not requiring the bang road signals which often require large and complex signalling structures to provide suitable sighting. Thus an express train fast modern made up of modern ETCS stock could switch over to the 'wrong' line where expedient to overtake an older stopping train that was not ETCS fitted.
 

MarkyT

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What about?
3. Areas where the layout is complex and a signal could conceivably be confused with an adjacent one on a gantry - as at Ladbroke Grove.

4. Areas where line speeds are limited by sighting restrictions, as opposed to the almost comical, and expensive, proliferation of banner signals as is necessary today.

5. Areas where future vegetation growth would neccesitate expensive and unpopular cutting works. Or where adverse weather could make it harder to maintain spatial awareness.

There are many more benefits to cab signalling than just in metro and high speed operation

All these are valid, but signals could still be retained to a limited extent to provide fail back functionality as on Thameslink. When working under signals, capacity and speed might be constrained, to the extent deemed economically viable to avoid a large number of banners etc.
 

LAX54

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Of course 'digital' could also mean, resignal with LEDs etc, and have MCS type workstations, which can all be described as digital :)
 

tiptoptaff

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The GWML from Cardiff-Pad now runs fully from TVSC and Wales ROC (and has done for some months) on digital locking - is that not a digital mainline?! (apologies if already mentioned upthread, busy in work skim reading...!!!)
 

Tomnick

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It's just a meaningless bit of spin. You could just as well describe a lever frame and mechanical locking as 'digital' for the most part, and 1960s relay interlockings fit the description perfectly!
 

moggie

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Bidirectional might give some extra overtaking opportunities, but only if there are crossovers existing or provided new in the right places. Under ETCS, bi-di still has to be consciously designed into the interlocking, although with only additional block markers instead of bang road signals, the incremental cost might be smaller than with signals. it might be possible to retain some signals in the normal operating direction on each track, with blocks further subdivided around station areas to allow better closing up through platforms. This would retain capability for small numbers of non ETCS equipped trains at off peak times perhaps or to provide a 'fail back' to keep trains moving at least in the event of radio or some other system failure; this is how the Thameslink core is configured. The reverse direction moves might only be configured with ETCS, hence not requiring the bang road signals which often require large and complex signalling structures to provide suitable sighting. Thus an express train fast modern made up of modern ETCS stock could switch over to the 'wrong' line where expedient to overtake an older stopping train that was not ETCS fitted.

You make most valid point which many proponents of the benefits of ETCS ignore. Each and EVERY route, be it ETCS or conventional requires the same specific interlocking logic and route setting request logic from ALL route setting sources together with whatever protection is specified for overrun's beyond the end of movement authority. The design and associate testing of all of this is where the time and expense is spent. The cost of system equipment to provide is a sunk cost as in any one area the cost of equipment for additional routes is negligible compared to the time to design and test the routes as that equipment will already be provided for the core signalling function. The more routes, the more complex the design, the more protracted the safety verification and validation process and room for error. Recent history tells us that in spades. Signal sighting constraints are real and problematic. The solutions however when measured in cost terms normally pale into insignificance.
As for the practicalities of operation. Through operations like Thameslink core and Crossrail where trains keep moving ahead (in theory) fine, but what is the point in context with the above of closing up trains on the approach to terminal stations where platform occupancy and vacation time will dictate how quickly and therefore how many trains can be timetabled. In context closing trains up a few hundred meters will make little difference. They'll just come to a stand nearer their destination and sit their just the same. Which is why imho the idea that ETCS will be the holy grail of extra capacity is flawed unless you solve the end destination problem. Trains will merely speed along closer together en route and then wait for a terminal platform further away than they do now as they join the back of the queue. I'm also deeply sceptical that stopping your train on a complex approach at the allotted block point without intervention and without a clearly visible position marked where clearance points are numerous and critical will be less than straightforward.

Hence CR2 is seen as as one expensive but operationally practical solution for one location.
 

HSTEd

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The drover just has to stop when the distance counter on the driving desk reaches zero.

Drivers would have an eye on the gauge, which is why a HUD would be very useful.

There will be a lot less kit on the desk after all as there would be no need for a sunflower
 
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