EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bromley boy]

And the same solution to the Irish border problem? Being part Irish I've no objection to a united Ireland but I don't think that can easily be done without political unrest.

Likewise, and agreed.

Also agreed a United Ireland would be a convenient solution, but politically impossible. It’s quite a conundrum.

 

[mmh]

So you can provide signed evidence of this from the negotiating team? At the moment the very least we can look forward to is having to fill in the ETIAD document, which is a visa in all but name and it's "asking permission" to travel into the EU/Schengen which can be refused. Currently you can only be refused entry under exceptional circumstances.

Hopefully sense will prevail - if we have to fill in documents then no doubt EU's will have to to come here - now we ned the sun/snow so will go through hoops to get there; however whether Eu citizens will do the same to come here is an entirely different matter, they can move around with a card in their wallet, so why pay, fill in forms and all the rest of it to come here when they can shop in Amsterdam, Paris or fancy walking a few hills there's Switzerland rather than Scotland??

There's no need for hyperbole. Nobody comes to Britain to shop now, and nobody will come here to shop in the future, and these systems are hardly "jumping through hoops". The USA is still a popular tourist destination.

The UK isn't developing such a system, so no - EU citizens won't have to pay or fill in forms. Why do you think they would? Often it seems EU-philes think foreign relations can only be conducted in some sort of tit-for-tat way. UK passport holders need electronic authorisation to travel to the US, US passport holders need no authorisation to travel to the UK. Again, this is something that won't change and isn't special to the EU.

As for Ireland, this ETIAD scheme will be introduced for all countries outside the EU/Schengen (surely you KNOW that??)

I do know that the EU and Schengen are not the same thing and membership of one doesn't imply membership of the other.

so if the Irish border remained fully open, and the UK had to be part of the ETIAD scheme then you would have people entering the EU (Ireland) from the UK without the necessary documents. It's possible - but it's becoming a mess; for example the UK could allow Visas to (say) Ethiopian nationals who wouldn't get a visa for the EU, yet they could get into the EU unchecked across the Irish border from the UK where they are legally entitled to be.

Of course if the UK walks away then we really are down the route of full-on Visas.

No, we really aren't.

 

[Howardh]

You’re quite right. Keeping freedom of movement to appease a tiny minority of people who live in Gibraltar and work in Spain would be unacceptable.

Maybe we should just give Gibraltar back to the Spanish. Bingo! Problem solved.

Let's go the whole distance and give the Falklands to Argentina, the Channel Islands to France, Norn to the Republic and I'm sure we can get something for the Isle Of Wight on e-bay.

 

[Howardh]

No, we really aren't.

Proof??

 

[Howardh]

Also agreed a United Ireland would be a convenient solution, but politically impossible. It’s quite a conundrum.

Yes, it's either an open border or risking meltdown as we had in the 70's/ 80's.
Other than remaining in a virtual EU (Brexit In All But Name) what's your solution?

 

[mmh]

Unless there is a signed agreement, that may/will change after B-day if UK/Gib inhabitants require to fill in ETIAD forms to cross the border and vice-versa. An even greater problem is work permits, and there are people who live in Gibraltar but work in Spain - admittedly not as many as cross the other way - so if there is any dispute between the UK and Gibraltar then those permits could be revoked without appeal.
The most sensible and easiest option, and the very first thing that should have been done, is to keep freedom of movement so these problems go away. However Brexiters don't like that > but they've yet to solve both the Irish and Gibraltar borders.

Gibraltar is an irrelevance. But, it has along with so many other places special agreements with the EU already. But those are impossible apparently.

 

[Bromley boy]

Let's go the whole distance and give the Falklands to Argentina, the Channel Islands to France, Norn to the Republic and I'm sure we can get something for the Isle Of Wight on e-bay.

How about whoever buys the IOW gets Scotland thrown in for free?

Mind you, we wouldn’t want to put prospective buyers off.

 

[Howardh]

Gibraltar is an irrelevance. .

Really? THE most British part of Britain, and proud to be so? It's an "irrelevance" because you can't find an answer to the border issue!!

 

[Howardh]

How about whoever buys the IOW gets Scotland thrown in for free?

Mind you, we wouldn’t want to put prospective buyers off.

What do you want to be left with??

 

[Bromley boy]

Yes, it's either an open border or risking meltdown as we had in the 70's/ 80's.
Other than remaining in a virtual EU (Brexit In All But Name) what's your solution?

Retain the CTA, border checks at U.K. ports of entry seems sensible. Some kind of technological solution to the goods being sent over the Eire/NI border.

Difficult with the DUP in the way I accept.

 

[northwichcat]

Gibraltar is an irrelevance. But, it has along with so many other places special agreements with the EU already. But those are impossible apparently.

You do realise Gibraltar is not an EU member itself and the special agreements exist through the UK membership.

 

[mmh]

Proof??

Common sense. Why would that happen? It would be in noone's interest and would be a glaring anomaly.

 

[Bromley boy]

What do you want to be left with??

London, the Home Counties and Yorkshire (for York, the dales, the NRM and the Leeds - Harrogate line).

Not too bothered about the rest.

 

[Howardh]

Gibraltar is an irrelevance. But, it has along with so many other places special agreements with the EU already. But those are impossible apparently.

Retain the CTA, border checks at U.K. ports of entry seems sensible. Some kind of technological solution to the goods being sent over the Eire/NI border.

Difficult with the DUP in the way I accept.

Yes, that is one of the possible outcomes. Putting DUP aside though, you have the issue that those in the North of Ireland who feel alligned to the UK more than Ireland and voted Brexit to be so, will then find themselves still in the EU or virtual EU and have restrictions on their goods that they can take to/from the UK - in otherwords seperated from the very place they feel most comfortable with. I don't think they would be so pleases, and whilst a closed border could/would cause the IRA to reignight the troubles, you would then have the problem of loyalist paramilitarys making their own troubles.

In other words, why should the mainland get whet we voted for yet the North doesn't?

 

[northwichcat]

London, the Home Counties and Yorkshire (for York, the dales, the NRM and the Leeds - Harrogate line).

Not too bothered about the rest.

Harrogate, York and Leeds all voted to remain so they may wish to be sold off to a European country, maybe France given they created a Yorkshire version of the Tour De France.

 

[Howardh]

Common sense. Why would that happen? It would be in noone's interest and would be a glaring anomaly.

Common sense isn't proof! There's very little of it around at the moment - can you find any?

 

[Howardh]

London, the Home Counties and Yorkshire (for York, the dales, the NRM and the Leeds - Harrogate line).

Not too bothered about the rest.

Can Lankyshire have it's indepenence then??!!

 

[radamfi]

I'm not making things up, I'm embellishing them to prove a point, the same as many people posting in this thread have. At least one poster has literally said he feels genuinely imprisoned here through the course of this thread.

I'm absolutely disgusted by your aggressive and insensitive stance throughout this thread. You see agony and want to make it worse by sticking in the knife even further.

 

[radamfi]

It's cost me a lot more than £900 even allowing for the fact uncertainty caused by Brexit was only partly responsible for me getting made redundant from a job I had for almost 9 years.

One of my colleagues has been forced to quit his job and indeed leave the country a few weeks ago. His partner's job has been transferred to Frankfurt as a direct result of Brexit so he went to Germany with her.

 

[mmh]

Really? THE most British part of Britain, and proud to be so? It's an "irrelevance" because you can't find an answer to the border issue!!

Yes, a little strip of land 5 miles from the coast of Morocco is really British.

Yeeeeet again, it has special agreements, why can't these continue? Why are new ones impossible to create? By the way, Gibraltar issues its own passports and... identity cards! Another impossible problem turns out to not be one.

 

[Howardh]

Yes, a little strip of land 5 miles from the coast of Morocco is really British.

Yeeeeet again, it has special agreements, why can't these continue? Why are new ones impossible to create? By the way, Gibraltar issues its own passports and... identity cards! Another impossible problem turns out to not be one.

What about the Falklands then?

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm absolutely disgusted by your aggressive and insensitive stance throughout this thread. You see agony and want to make it worse by sticking in the knife even further.

More ridiculous hyperbole.

 

[Bromley boy]

One of my colleagues has been forced to quit his job and indeed leave the country a few weeks ago. His partner's job has been transferred to Frankfurt as a direct result of Brexit so he went to Germany with her.

Forced by whom?

It sounds like his partner chose to relocate to Germany and he chose to go with her.

 

[Bromley boy]

What about the Falklands then?

Given the Falklands is located in the far South Atlantic, I’m not it’s an issue when it comes to BREXIT!

 

[mmh]

What about the Falklands then?

!! I must have missed it having a land border with the EU.

 

[Howardh]

Given the Falklands is located in the far South Atlantic, I’m not it’s an issue when it comes to BREXIT!

Which is geographically, politically and culturally more important to the UK - Gibraltar, located on the narrow straits of the Med with it's own military, naval and air bases; and we want to hand it back to the Spanish because it suits Brexit, or a group of islands on the other side of the world costing us a fortune to defend (and 300+ lives during the invasion) and there's sod all there yet that's OK? Just seems rather odd to throw away a chunk of land which is ours due to it's location where we can control the Med (if we needed to)?

Do we give our military bases in Cyprus back? *Technically I think we are doing bit by bit bus AFAIK some will still be maintained) as that's another Brexit issue?

 

[Howardh]

!! I must have missed it having a land border with the EU.

Therefore by your argument we must give Northern Ireland to the Republic as it has a land border with the EU.

 

[mmh]

Therefore by your argument we must give Northern Ireland to the Republic as it has a land border with the EU.

I really don't understand what on earth you're on about. What on earth does the Falklands have to do with what options may exist for keeping the Ireland - Ulster border checkpoint free?

Gibraltar is no parallel at all. It has a checkpoint. There were claims earlier that Gibraltar's economy depended either on workers from Spain working in Gibraltar, or on workers from Gibraltar working in Spain. I'd have guessed it depended more on being a tax haven, but even so, it's yet another non-problem - just give those people work permits.

 

[mmh]

Which is geographically, politically and culturally more important to the UK - Gibraltar, located on the narrow straits of the Med with it's own military, naval and air bases; and we want to hand it back to the Spanish because it suits Brexit, or a group of islands on the other side of the world costing us a fortune to defend (and 300+ lives during the invasion) and there's sod all there yet that's OK?

I'll agree with part of the sentiment there - before the Falklands War the vast majority of people had never heard of the place, something so few people will admit. I'm really not sure what it has to do with the Irish problem.

Just seems rather odd to throw away a chunk of land which is ours due to it's location where we can control the Med (if we needed to)?

Do we give our military bases in Cyprus back? *Technically I think we are doing bit by bit bus AFAIK some will still be maintained) as that's another Brexit issue?

That's not a Brexit issue. Not everything has to do with the EU.

 

[Howardh]

I really don't understand what on earth you're on about. What on earth does the Falklands have to do with what options may exist for keeping the Ireland - Ulster border checkpoint free?

Gibraltar is no parallel at all. It has a checkpoint. There were claims earlier that Gibraltar's economy depended either on workers from Spain working in Gibraltar, or on workers from Gibraltar working in Spain. I'd have guessed it depended more on being a tax haven, but even so, it's yet another non-problem - just give those people work permits.

Let me try again.
It's agreed we all want to keep the Irish Border open.
In a no or poor-deal senario we will have no choice but to make it hard to check goods and people to maintain the integrity of the Single Market which we won't be part of.
Which could re-ignight the troubles which we don't want;
So the solution is to remain inside the Customs Union and Single Market which the government won't do - or have an arrangement which is remarkably similar which the EU say we can't have as it will allow other countries to ask for the same. And in any case we would be paying for access but lose our seats and say.
Stalemate.
Gibraltar also has a semi-open border with the EU which would remain as it is if we remained in the CU/SM. The problem there is outside the Eu institutions we leave ourselves with the problem of the Spansih closing it completely (they have form in that) and/or refusing those with work permits access (a new problem). Probably won't happen, but may.
Your answer is to give Gibraltar away as it's insignificant.
But by the same token I assume you don't wnat to give the Falklands away, yet arguably Gibraltar is of far more military and geographic significance to Britain than the Falklands, but you want to give it away to suit Brexit??
EDIT the final point - I've just read your new message which kinda answers that!