EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[northwichcat]

Well it has not cost me £900. I am doing rather well on the back of it so far.

It's cost me a lot more than £900 even allowing for the fact uncertainty caused by Brexit was only partly responsible for me getting made redundant from a job I had for almost 9 years.

 

[northwichcat]

I’m afraid I don’t follow.

I’ve said I think it’s appropriate for the government to go the electorate on issues of major constituonal reform. The fact that figures within the government were pro remain is neither here nor there (although it certainly formed part of the wealthy political establishment’s bias towards the remain camp)

It’s for the government to now implement the result of that vote. I have said repeatedly that the spirit of leaving the EU = leaving the EU and its major institutions - as we were assured we would by the remain camp!

I don’t want another plebiscite vote on the matter so, yes, if the final “leave” deal involves, say, leaving the EU but remaining in the common market/customs union (thereby remaining in all but name) I will have to lump it.

Just as you have to “lump” the result of the 2016 referendum.

In what way is my logic unsound?

You've repeatedly shown you don't know the meaning of logic or realise when you're posting something ironic, as you demonstrated yesterday and again today.

 

[greyman42]

It's cost me a lot more than £900 even allowing for the fact uncertainty caused by Brexit was only partly responsible for me getting made redundant from a job I had for almost 9 years.

Sorry to hear that.

 

[Bromley boy]

You've repeatedly shown you don't know the meaning of logic or realise when you're posting something ironic, as you demonstrated yesterday and again today.

Another childish attempt at diversion, you’ve not actually engaged with or addressed the posting you have quoted.

If you disagree with what I’ve posted, that’s fine, but you need to explain why, with reference to my previous postings.

For somebody with your post count, it’s strange how you can never actually address the issue at hand.

So, it’s over to you. Please tell me, line by line, what I’ve posted that defies logic or is ironic in any way....

 

[Bromley boy]

It's cost me a lot more than £900 even allowing for the fact uncertainty caused by Brexit was only partly responsible for me getting made redundant from a job I had for almost 9 years.

With respect, I’m not sure that has anything to do with Brexit....

 

[Howardh]

I’m afraid I don’t follow.

I’ve said I think it’s appropriate for the government to go the electorate on issues of major constituonal reform. The fact that figures within the government were pro remain is neither here nor there (although it certainly formed part of the wealthy political establishment’s bias towards the remain camp)

It’s for the government to now implement the result of that vote. I have said repeatedly that the spirit of leaving the EU = leaving the EU and its major institutions - as we were assured we would by the remain camp!

I don’t want another plebiscite vote on the matter so, yes, if the final “leave” deal involves, say, leaving the EU but remaining in the common market/customs union (thereby remaining in all but name) I will have to lump it.

Just as you have to “lump” the result of the 2016 referendum.

In what way is my logic unsound?

I'm sure things would happen a lot quicker for you if all Brexiters could show that common sense. It's idiots like Mogg who are incapable of seeing there's no solution to problems such as the Irish Border that are holding things up. By now you should have had your Brexit parties, with the rest of us breathing a sigh of relief that we're not cast-off into the ocean and still have our links with the world's largest trading block more-or-less intact.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm sure things would happen a lot quicker for you if all Brexiters could show that common sense. It's idiots like Mogg who are incapable of seeing there's no solution to problems such as the Irish Border that are holding things up. By now you should have had your Brexit parties, with the rest of us breathing a sigh of relief that we're not cast-off into the ocean and still have our links with the world's largest trading block more-or-less intact.

I’m no fan of Mogg either.

I’m afraid I can’t make head nor tail of the rest of your post. Who are “the rest of us”? We are all in this together.

Don’t worry, you will be able to fulfil your planned grand tour of Europe in a caravan, even after Brexit. Just as I will be revisiting Paris, Barcelona, the Amalfi coast.

Our membership of the EU is neither there nor there.

 

[Howardh]

We are all in this together.
Don’t worry, you will be able to fulfil your planned grand tour of Europe in a caravan, even after Brexit. Just as I will be revisiting Paris, Barcelona, the Amalfi coast.
Our membership of the EU is neither there nor there.

No, sir, we're not all in this together! As for travelling around, I hope that will continue without Visas/ETIAD/profileing/fingerprinting/fees and all the rest of it. Don't see why se should, but right now nothing's for granted. We may have to declare where our first night stay is. Great for one-day trippers!
But they key will be if and when they shove us fown the rest-of-world lanes at EU airports, the Brits look across at all the EU's simply breezing through whilse all our credentials are thoroughly checked.
Brexit isn't much fun when it's 34c in the hallway, you are still in your UK clothes, you've been waiting 45 minutes already and the kids are screaming their heads off. Don't say it won't happen - it already has (note the headlines last year) and that's when we are already IN the EU!! So goodness knows what the queues will be like when we leave.
So unless recriprocal agreements come to pass, a lot of Brexit voters on their jols may well think again and be happy to rejoin if it shortens the queues.
Now, what about white-van-man used to bringing in his vanload of cheap duty-paid French booza...has Boris told him that might not happen in future (but he can have a half-price bottle of Scotch)?
Brexit will be an epic win or epic fail depending on how people will be affected by it all.
Could be a win if we remain in the Customs Union/Single Market. Same old...carry on.

 

[AlterEgo]

The absolute paranoia on here by some people thinking they’ll be effectively imprisoned in Britain is laughable.

You will still be able to travel very easily after Brexit happens whatever the deal turns out to be.

 

[Bromley boy]

No, sir, we're not all in this together! As for travelling around, I hope that will continue without Visas/ETIAD/profileing/fingerprinting/fees and all the rest of it. Don't see why se should, but right now nothing's for granted. We may have to declare where our first night stay is. Great for one-day trippers!
But they key will be if and when they shove us fown the rest-of-world lanes at EU airports, the Brits look across at all the EU's simply breezing through whilse all our credentials are thoroughly checked.
Brexit isn't much fun when it's 34c in the hallway, you are still in your UK clothes, you've been waiting 45 minutes already and the kids are screaming their heads off. Don't say it won't happen - it already has (note the headlines last year) and that's when we are already IN the EU!! So goodness knows what the queues will be like when we leave.
So unless recriprocal agreements come to pass, a lot of Brexit voters on their jols may well think again and be happy to rejoin if it shortens the queues.
Now, what about white-van-man used to bringing in his vanload of cheap duty-paid French booza...has Boris told him that might not happen in future (but he can have a half-price bottle of Scotch)?
Brexit will be an epic win or epic fail depending on how people will be affected by it all.
Could be a win if we remain in the Customs Union/Single Market. Same old...carry on.

Just back from the pub?

 

[EM2]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...n-driver-being-put-out-of-business-by-brexit/
The Van Driver Being Put Out Of Business By Brexit

Kieran told James O'Brien that his delivery company will go out of business almost immediately if Britain leaves the Customs Union.

He said that Brexit campaigners who say that frictionless borders are possible outside the Customs Union are liars, citing the huge amount of paperwork needed every time he delivers to Switzerland.

Speaking to LBC, he said: "I have a contract with Eurostar. Today, we were sent out in the early hours of the morning to Brussels. Load up and come home. We do that two or three times a week.

"No customs checks - all I have to do is list the goods on what's called a CNR form, an international delivery note.

"If we go outside the Customs Union, we need to do transit documents. They cost £75-£90 a pop. You have to go to Customs House in Dover to clear them. You have to park up.

"If you get sent down what's called a Route One, which I've had before, you're stuck there for six to seven hours waiting to clear them. On a quiet day, you can be out and clear in 45-50 minutes.

"If we were outside the Customs Union, all vehicles would have to do this."

 

[nlogax]

Another little moment of realism sprinkled over those who believe in unicorns.

"The European Union dismissed many of the U.K.’s plans for their post-Brexit relationship as little short of “fantasy” as the mood of negotiations deteriorated and progress stalled.

Three days of talks in Brussels wrapped up with little headway on the most important issues, in particular on how to prevent a hard Irish border, according to an EU official. The EU said the U.K. has still not come to grips with all the steps needed to avoid frontier checks on the island of Ireland, which is a condition for the entire Brexit deal, and hasn’t formally pitched its plan, the official told reporters in Brussels on condition of anonymity."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...antasy-brexit-plans-as-negotiations-turn-sour

 

[Howardh]

Just back from the pub?

For business, industry and tourists, after B-Day things can only be the same, or worse. What's your money on?

Oh, our negotiating team is led by Hapless Davis and Hopeless May.

What's your money on?

 

[Senex]

So according to Philip Hammond (quoted on Radio 4 10 a.m. news summary) we're going to build our own satellite navigation system if we can't stay with Galileo after Brexit. How much money will that need that could otherwise go on the NHS, social care, education, etc? And would this be meeting a real need, or would it be another manifestation of that lingering wish to try to be a Great Power that seems to be common to so many Tory parliamentarians?

 

[WelshBluebird]

The absolute paranoia on here by some people thinking they’ll be effectively imprisoned in Britain is laughable.

You will still be able to travel very easily after Brexit happens whatever the deal turns out to be.

Literally nobody is saying you'd "effectively imprisoned in Britain" though so please stop making up arguments for the sake of it.
It is fact however, barring some sort of deal that many brexiteers would find unpalatable (such as staying in the single market and accepting freedom of movement), that travelling between the UK and the EU will be more difficult after brexit than before it. How much more difficult is the question.

 

[mmh]

No, sir, we're not all in this together! As for travelling around, I hope that will continue without Visas/ETIAD/profileing/fingerprinting/fees and all the rest of it. Don't see why se should, but right now nothing's for granted. We may have to declare where our first night stay is. Great for one-day trippers!
But they key will be if and when they shove us fown the rest-of-world lanes at EU airports, the Brits look across at all the EU's simply breezing through whilse all our credentials are thoroughly checked.
Brexit isn't much fun when it's 34c in the hallway, you are still in your UK clothes, you've been waiting 45 minutes already and the kids are screaming their heads off. Don't say it won't happen - it already has (note the headlines last year) and that's when we are already IN the EU!! So goodness knows what the queues will be like when we leave.
So unless recriprocal agreements come to pass, a lot of Brexit voters on their jols may well think again and be happy to rejoin if it shortens the queues.
Now, what about white-van-man used to bringing in his vanload of cheap duty-paid French booza...has Boris told him that might not happen in future (but he can have a half-price bottle of Scotch)?
Brexit will be an epic win or epic fail depending on how people will be affected by it all.
Could be a win if we remain in the Customs Union/Single Market. Same old...carry on.

You keep mentioning visas. Visas will not be needed to travel to EU countries. Guaranteed. In general no First World country requires visas for another First World country. Another thing attributed to the EU which in reality has nothing to do with it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

You keep mentioning visas. Visas will not be needed to travel to EU countries. Guaranteed. In general no First World country requires visas for another First World country. Another thing attributed to the EU which in reality has nothing to do with it.

You simply do not know that.
It is highly unlikely we would need a Visa, but we just do not know at the moment.

Also "In general no First World country requires visas for another First World country" is a bit of a stretch. If you are from the UK you need a Visa to visit Australia for example. Flying to Canada from the UK requires an "electronic travel authorisation" which is essentially a Visa. Even for the US, where we are part of the Visa waver programme, you still need a "Electronic System for Travel Authorisation" (or will need a full Visa in quite a few cases depending on if you have ever been arrested for certain crimes or been to certain countries). Granted none of these are difficult to get, but they still count as being more effort than the current setup with the EU.

 

[AlterEgo]

Literally nobody is saying you'd "effectively imprisoned in Britain" though so please stop making up arguments for the sake of it.
It is fact however, barring some sort of deal that many brexiteers would find unpalatable (such as staying in the single market and accepting freedom of movement), that travelling between the UK and the EU will be more difficult after brexit than before it. How much more difficult is the question.

I'm not making things up, I'm embellishing them to prove a point, the same as many people posting in this thread have. At least one poster has literally said he feels genuinely imprisoned here through the course of this thread. Elsewhere, people are saying that queuing for ten minutes is going to stop people from travelling (I don't envisage either thing happening btw), and that day trippers will face problems if they have to declare where their first night's stay is (not a problem in practice, I don't envisage that happening).

I honestly do find the hysteria quite amusing. We also have warnings of Irish republicanism from English Remainers (but not from Leavers, who are much more vehemently anti-IRA as a bloc), economic disaster which hasn't come to pass, people are blaming Brexit on all manner of misfortune which has befallen them. Brexit has meant a reduced rate of exchange for me - I travel very extensively and am building up a portfolio of work by doing so (for want of a better word...it's not a job). My endeavours are being made more expensive by Brexit and I estimate it has cost me up to £2,000 since the vote.

It's amusing and depressing actually. This isn't a go at you, as I find your posts here to be refreshingly reasoned, worthwhile and dispassionate, but rather a general post - but hell, I have literally never ever voted for a winning candidate or winning option on a ballot paper (I voted in favour of AV too and had I been eligible I would have voted for Scottish Independence). I voted remain and as I left the polling station I was quietly confident that just once, I might be in the voting majority. I'm still amused by reading the first 20 or so pages of this thread. There was a lot of shared confidence in Remain that I can identify with, but I've sucked it up now and accept Brexit is happening. At the time of the vote I was working in London and living in Surrey - total bubbles, especially the civil service I worked in.

I've strapped in for the ride.

 

[AlterEgo]

You simply do not know that.
It is highly unlikely we would need a Visa, but we just do not know at the moment.

Also "In general no First World country requires visas for another First World country" is a bit of a stretch. If you are from the UK you need a Visa to visit Australia for example. Flying to Canada from the UK requires an "electronic travel authorisation" which is essentially a Visa. Even for the US, where we are part of the Visa waver programme, you still need a "Electronic System for Travel Authorisation" (or will need a full Visa in quite a few cases depending on if you have ever been arrested for certain crimes or been to certain countries). Granted none of these are difficult to get, but they still count as being more effort than the current setup with the EU.

It is indeed unlikely to require an actual visa - I wouldn't rule out some sort of ESTA arrangement between the UK and EU (wasn't this mooted a little while back?). It is very easy to obtain an ESTA and it would last for years.

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry to hear that.

I wasn't trying to get sympathy, just pointing out that I'm worse off to balance out the argument. A good report will give the average figure as its' headline.

With respect, I’m not sure that has anything to do with Brexit....

It was down to two clients ending their contracts. One moved to a low cost provider due to increased economic uncertainty (which happened as a result of the leave vote), the other was due to a new manager coming in and realising that they were sending a lot of work to us which made better business sense to do in house. The latter certainly not down to the leave vote and they created some in house job vacancies but not at a good location for the people who had just lost their jobs.

 

[mmh]

It is fact however, barring some sort of deal that many brexiteers would find unpalatable (such as staying in the single market and accepting freedom of movement), that travelling between the UK and the EU will be more difficult after brexit than before it. How much more difficult is the question.

Travelling between the UK and the EU will be no more difficult than it is now. We'll still be outside Schengen so you'll still need your passport. It's working in an EU country which will be more difficult.

Travelling to Spain (EU, in customs union, has freedom of movement with EU),
Norway (EU, in customs union, has freedom of movement),
Canary Islands (EU, not in customs union, has freedom of movement),
Jersey (not EU, in customs union, freedom of movement of goods but not labour)

Other than Jersey being in the Common Travel Area there is no more or less difficulty in travelling to any of these places from the UK.

Which raises a question really - if the EU already has special agreements with so many of its members and non-members with seemingly every combination of the "principles", why are people so insistent that it's completely impossible for a special arrangement to be agreed over the Ireland / UK border?

 

[northwichcat]

You keep mentioning visas. Visas will not be needed to travel to EU countries. Guaranteed. In general no First World country requires visas for another First World country. Another thing attributed to the EU which in reality has nothing to do with it.

It is indeed unlikely to require an actual visa - I wouldn't rule out some sort of ESTA arrangement between the UK and EU (wasn't this mooted a little while back?). It is very easy to obtain an ESTA and it would last for years.

The EU is actually in the process of introducing a Schengen zone travel authorisation scheme for those entering from non-EU/EEA countries, following on from the likes of the US, Canada and Australia introducing such a scheme. The only real differences between visas and electronic travel authorisation are that you don't have to visit an embassy it's all online (but that's also the case with some actual visas now) and that they are multi-visit for a fixed time frame.

 

[northwichcat]

We'll still be outside Schengen so you'll still need your passport.

Worth noting the only reason we need a passport to enter the Schengen is because we don't have a national ID card. If you've ever been across the pedestrian borders between Spain and Gibraltar you'll see lots of Spanish nationals entering and leaving the Schengen with a flash of their ID cards, while the Brits have to use passports open at the correct page.

 

[mmh]

The EU is actually in the process of introducing a Schengen zone travel authorisation scheme for those entering from non-EU/EEA countries, following on from the likes of the US, Canada and Australia introducing such a scheme. The only real differences between visas and electronic travel authorisation are that you don't have to visit an embassy it's all online (but that's also the case with some actual visas now) and that they are multi-visit for a fixed time frame.

I didn't know that, but have no problem with it. Well, actually I do have one problem with it. It's another example of a reason why many people who voted to leave did so - the EU as a superstate.

I see they've copied the most important thing about such systems from the USA - make sure a Google search for it returns dozens of scammers websites hoping to flog you a fake one, with the actual official site about it being hidden amongst them. And it doesn't even exist yet, quality.

 

[northwichcat]

I didn't know that, but have no problem with it. Well, actually I do have one problem with it. It's another example of a reason why many people who voted to leave did so - the EU as a superstate.

We're not part of the Schengen Zone though so if we remained those visiting Britain would not require it and we would not require it to visit countries in the EU (as those from other EU/EEA countries are exempt even if not part of Schengen.) Personally I can see the logic in one universal system for the Schengen Zone given the lack of border checks between countries in the Schengen Zone. If Germany had a different scheme to Austria then an American could finish up applying for the German scheme to visit Munich and then they could jump on a train towards Salzburg without realising they've crossed the border in to Austria and they aren't legally in the country.

I see they've copied the most important thing about such systems from the USA - make sure a Google search for it returns dozens of scammers websites hoping to flog you a fake one, with the actual official site about it being hidden amongst them. And it doesn't even exist yet, quality.

Whatever country you are visiting go to www.fco.gov.uk and find the guide for the country you are visiting. That will include links to official sites to get any necessary visas or travel authorisation.

The unofficial sites don't all flog fake ones. Many order an official one on your behalf but charge some outrageous fee for checking your application for you (or similar.)

 

[Howardh]

Travelling between the UK and the EU will be no more difficult than it is now. We'll still be outside Schengen so you'll still need your passport. It's working in an EU country which will be more difficult.

Travelling to Spain (EU, in customs union, has freedom of movement with EU),
Norway (EU, in customs union, has freedom of movement),
Canary Islands (EU, not in customs union, has freedom of movement),
Jersey (not EU, in customs union, freedom of movement of goods but not labour)

Other than Jersey being in the Common Travel Area there is no more or less difficulty in travelling to any of these places from the UK.

Which raises a question really - if the EU already has special agreements with so many of its members and non-members with seemingly every combination of the "principles", why are people so insistent that it's completely impossible for a special arrangement to be agreed over the Ireland / UK border?

So you can provide signed evidence of this from the negotiating team? At the moment the very least we can look forward to is having to fill in the ETIAD document, which is a visa in all but name and it's "asking permission" to travel into the EU/Schengen which can be refused. Currently you can only be refused entry under exceptional circumstances.

Hopefully sense will prevail - if we have to fill in documents then no doubt EU's will have to to come here - now we ned the sun/snow so will go through hoops to get there; however whether Eu citizens will do the same to come here is an entirely different matter, they can move around with a card in their wallet, so why pay, fill in forms and all the rest of it to come here when they can shop in Amsterdam, Paris or fancy walking a few hills there's Switzerland rather than Scotland??

As for Ireland, this ETIAD scheme will be introduced for all countries outside the EU/Schengen (surely you KNOW that??) so if the Irish border remained fully open, and the UK had to be part of the ETIAD scheme then you would have people entering the EU (Ireland) from the UK without the necessary documents. It's possible - but it's becoming a mess; for example the UK could allow Visas to (say) Ethiopian nationals who wouldn't get a visa for the EU, yet they could get into the EU unchecked across the Irish border from the UK where they are legally entitled to be.

Of course if the UK walks away then we really are down the route of full-on Visas.

 

[Howardh]

Worth noting the only reason we need a passport to enter the Schengen is because we don't have a national ID card. If you've ever been across the pedestrian borders between Spain and Gibraltar you'll see lots of Spanish nationals entering and leaving the Schengen with a flash of their ID cards, while the Brits have to use passports open at the correct page.

Unless there is a signed agreement, that may/will change after B-day if UK/Gib inhabitants require to fill in ETIAD forms to cross the border and vice-versa. An even greater problem is work permits, and there are people who live in Gibraltar but work in Spain - admittedly not as many as cross the other way - so if there is any dispute between the UK and Gibraltar then those permits could be revoked without appeal.
The most sensible and easiest option, and the very first thing that should have been done, is to keep freedom of movement so these problems go away. However Brexiters don't like that > but they've yet to solve both the Irish and Gibraltar borders.

 

[Bromley boy]

Unless there is a signed agreement, that may/will change after B-day if UK/Gib inhabitants require to fill in ETIAD forms to cross the border and vice-versa. An even greater problem is work permits, and there are people who live in Gibraltar but work in Spain - admittedly not as many as cross the other way - so if there is any dispute between the UK and Gibraltar then those permits could be revoked without appeal.
The most sensible and easiest option, and the very first thing that should have been done, is to keep freedom of movement so these problems go away. However Brexiters don't like that > but they've yet to solve both the Irish and Gibraltar borders.

You’re quite right. Keeping freedom of movement to appease a tiny minority of people who live in Gibraltar and work in Spain would be unacceptable.

Maybe we should just give Gibraltar back to the Spanish. Bingo! Problem solved.

 

[northwichcat]

Unless there is a signed agreement, that may/will change after B-day if UK/Gib inhabitants require to fill in ETIAD forms to cross the border and vice-versa. An even greater problem is work permits, and there are people who live in Gibraltar but work in Spain - admittedly not as many as cross the other way - so if there is any dispute between the UK and Gibraltar then those permits could be revoked without appeal.
The most sensible and easiest option, and the very first thing that should have been done, is to keep freedom of movement so these problems go away. However Brexiters don't like that > but they've yet to solve both the Irish and Gibraltar borders.

Gibraltar needs those Spanish workers for the local economy to operate and they won't want to move across the border unless either the cost of renting/owning property in Gibraltar goes down or they get paid a lot more. Although, of course it's in Spain's best interests for them to be paid in Euros and to pay income tax to the government in Madrid, not the one in Gibraltar.

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe we should just give Gibralter back to the Spanish. Bingo! Problem solved.

And the same solution to the Irish border problem? Being part Irish I've no objection to a united Ireland but I don't think that can easily be done without political unrest.