Romsey - Southampton via Eastleigh

[Drsatan]

I turned up at my local station, Romsey, to see a handwritten sign saying that Romsey - Southampton tickets were not valid for travel to Eastleigh. Since buying a ticket to Southampton is definitely cheaper than buying one to Eastleigh this is very annoying . I suspect that this also violates the National Rail Conditions of Carriage since Romsey - Southampton Central tickets are marked as "Any route permitted", which includes Romsey - Southampton via Eastleigh and Romsey - Southampton via Redbridge, so Eastleigh would class as a break of journey. Any ideas?

 

[OwlMan]

I turned up at my local station, Romsey, to see a handwritten sign saying that Romsey - Southampton tickets were not valid for travel to Eastleigh. Since buying a ticket to Southampton is definitely cheaper than buying one to Eastleigh this is very annoying . I suspect that this also violates the National Rail Conditions of Carriage since Romsey - Southampton Central tickets are marked as "Any route permitted", which includes Romsey - Southampton via Eastleigh and Romsey - Southampton via Redbridge, so Eastleigh would class as a break of journey. Any ideas?

As one of the routeing points of Romsey is Southampton there is a common routeing point for the two stations.

"When a journey is between stations that have one or more common
routeing points, the permitted journey takes the route of shortest
distance or any route no more than 3 miles longer, whether or not
they pass through the common routeing point. Also permitted are
journeys that use direct trains to and from the common routeing
point."

The shortest route is via Redbridge (8.75 miles) the route via Eastleigh is 13 miles long and therefore is over 3 miles longer, so it is not a permitted route under this rule.
You can however make the journey from Romsey to Southampton on a through train via Eastleigh but you are not allowed to change trains or break your journey as you may only use "direct trains to & from the common routeing point".

Peter

 

[Helvellyn]

This is also due to who prices the routes. Romsey, Mottisfont & Dunbridge and Dean are all FGW stations, and they price the majority of the local journeys. I believe these notices have been posted after passengers were breaking their journeys on the longer routes where the ticket wasn't valid to do this. An unintended consequence of the figure of 6 service!

 

[thefab444]

You can however make the journey from Romsey to Southampton on a through train via Eastleigh but you are not allowed to change trains or break your journey as you may only use "direct trains to & from the common routeing point".

As there are no barriers at Eastleigh, nor are there very frequently revenue staff, I think it would be safe enough to break your journey there.

 

[Drsatan]

Ok, so if I buy a Romsey - Southampton ticket, get off at Eastleigh, and am stopped when leaving the station, do I say I don't know that the break of journey wasn't allowed and offer to pay the difference. According to one thread if I'm issued a penalty fare I can refuse to pay that and instead pay the difference. Would this work?

 

[yorkie]

The ticket conditions states

Break of Journey:
Out/Rtn - YES

You can however make the journey from Romsey to Southampton on a through train via Eastleigh but you are not allowed to change trains or break your journey as you may only use "direct trains to & from the common routeing point".

Yes you can only do this on direct trains, but is there a rule that says you can't change from one direct train to another direct train?

 

[PhilipW]

Two points

1) As I understand it, if you buy a walk-on Romsey-Southampton ticket (which they all are) you are perfectly entitled to break your journey at any of the intermediate stations, Chandlers Ford, Eastleigh, Swathling or St Denys.

2) I do not have not exact mileages with me but I would have thought that Romsey to Eastleigh via Chandlers Ford was a little less than Romsey to Southampton via Redbridge.
In a normal world you would therefore expect the fares to be about similar.

The current situation is
Romsey - Eastleigh £5.10
Romsey - Swathling £4.80
Romsey - St Denys £3.80
Romsey - Southampton £3.60

A true case of the further you travel, the cheaper it gets

My brain is hurting !

 

[Matt Taylor]

There was recently an email sent out to ticket office staff on SWT regarding this issue, tickets are valid via the shortest route (withing three miles) or by a direct service. Getting off a direct service at Eastleigh and getting on another direct service an hour later counts as a break of journey and is thus not permitted.

The email was sent for the purposes of addressing the issue of passengers buying Eastleigh-Romsey tickets and trying to use them to Southampton (which costs more), but the rule still applies to Romsey to Southampton journeys.

 

[glynn80]

There was recently an email sent out to ticket office staff on SWT regarding this issue, tickets are valid via the shortest route (withing three miles) or by a direct service. Getting off a direct service at Eastleigh and getting on another direct service an hour later counts as a break of journey and is thus not permitted.

The email was sent for the purposes of addressing the issue of passengers buying Eastleigh-Romsey tickets and trying to use them to Southampton (which costs more), but the rule still applies to Romsey to Southampton journeys.

But break of journey is permitted on all the ticket types listed in the FRPP for the Romsey to Southampton Central flow?

 

[John @ home]

I turned up at my local station, Romsey, to see a handwritten sign saying that Romsey - Southampton tickets were not valid for travel to Eastleigh.

It would be helpful if anyone could post a photo of that sign.

Yes you can only do this on direct trains, but is there a rule that says you can't change from one direct train to another direct train?

There are 5 fares types available between Romsey and Southampton Central. For 4 of these, NFM 03 states:

No Restriction Applies

For the fifth fare, the CDR, the entry is:

Break of Journey: Out/Rtn - YES

So break of journey is allowed on any ticket between Romsey and Southampton Central by any permitted route (all 5 tickets are route Any Permitted).

No problem there, so let's see what the NRG has to say on the subject. Fortunately, the first of the 1300-odd pages says:

When to Use the National Routeing Guide
Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route.

That's great! It tells us we don't need to read the other pages. The route is automatically permitted by a through train. Break of journey is allowed. So SWT are wrong.

Complain to SWT! If they won't budge then complain to ATOC, Passenger Focus and/or DfT.

John

 

[glynn80]

No problem there, so let's see what the NRG has to say on the subject. Fortunately, the first of the 1300-odd pages says:That's great! It tells us we don't need to read the other pages. The route is automatically permitted by a through train. Break of journey is allowed. So SWT are wrong.

Complain to SWT! If they won't budge then complain to ATOC, Passenger Focus and/or DfT.

When you resume your journey again at Eastleigh, can you catch any service or would it have to be one from Romsey?

 

[yorkie]

When you resume your journey again at Eastleigh, can you catch any service or would it have to be one from Romsey?

It would have to be one from Romsey.

I'm pretty sure that, for example, if you bought a London to Peterborough ticket, you can break your journey at Ipswich, but you must get the direct train to Peterborough. You can choose to get off it early though. If you choose to resume your journey from Ipswich, you must get a train that originated in London.

It's the direct trains that are permitted, but there is nothing to compel you to remain on them. Break of journey is permitted.

 

[glynn80]

Reading through the uk.railway archives on the PBO to LST via IPS example, the following was mentioned basically confirming that BoJ was permitted so long as both trains travelled on prior to and after the BoJ were through services:

• NRCoC:
  13 [...] For the purposes of this Condition, a Through Train is one
  which may be used by a passenger to make his/her entire journey.
  
  15. Breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
  
  You have the right to break and resume a journey covered by your
  ticket (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any
  intermediate station, as long as your ticket is valid for the trains
  you want to use.
  
  So provided that both legs are on a Through Train - that is, one from
  Peterborough to Liverpool Street - the ticket would be valid to use them
  and I can break the journey.

• To go back into the mists of time, the example given during initial
  RGH training was Birmingham - Norwich using the 0706 ex New Street
  which ran via Nottingham (not a Permitted Route except using the
  through train rule), with BoJ at Nottingham. The 0706 was the only
  train of the day to take that route.
  
  The explanation given was that BoJ was possible (using a suitable
  ticket, of course) *provided* the journey was continued using the 0706
  ex New Street on a subsequent day - and *only* that train. Using any
  other ticket meant being off route, although I'm sure that the excess
  fare due would be a matter for interesting discussion.

 

[John @ home]

It would have to be one from Romsey.

Agreed. It would have to be a through train, otherwise the common routeing point rule quoted by collybs comes into effect.

John

 

[glynn80]

Agreed. It would have to be a through train, otherwise the common routeing point rule quoted by collybs comes into effect.

How would that rule come into effect when travelling via Eastleigh?

 

[John @ home]

When you resume your journey again at Eastleigh, can you catch any service or would it have to be one from Romsey?

It would have to be one from Romsey.

Agreed. It would have to be a through train, otherwise the common routeing point rule quoted by collybs comes into effect.

How would that rule come into effect when travelling via Eastleigh?

When travelling on a Romsey - Southampton Central ticket and resuming the journey after a break at Eastleigh, if the train is a through train between Romsey and Southampton Central then the words on the first page of the Routeing Guide apply: Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route

But if the train is not a through Romsey - Southampton Central train, then that does not apply and the whole of the routeing guide needs to be consulted.

The two most relevant sentences have been quoted by collybs above. He has explained why a permitted route Romsey - Eastleigh - Southampton Central is not created by

When a journey is between stations that have one or more common routeing points, the permitted journey takes the route of shortest distance or any route no more than 3 miles longer, whether or not they pass through the common routeing point

So it all turns on the meaning of the sentence

Also permitted are journeys that use direct trains to and from the common routeing point.

And this depends on the meaning of the word direct. It is surprising how often that word causes problems in railway fares and routeing matters.

One view could be that a direct train in this context must be a direct train between the origin or destination printed on the ticket and the common routeing point. In this instance, that would be a Romsey - Eastleigh - Southampton Central train.

An alternative view could be that a direct train is a train running directly between the station where the broken journey has been resumed and the common routeing point. In this instance, that would make a Waterloo - Eastleigh - Southampton Central train an acceptable part of a permitted route for the Romsey - Eastleigh - Southampton Central journey.

I don't think either view will gain universal acceptance.

John

 

[PhilipW]

By buying a ticket to St Denys (at £3.80 it being 20p more than to Southampton but still £1.30 less than to Eastleigh), the problem is effectively solved.

Travelling to St Denys via Eastleigh in my mind is clearly the direct route, therefore a break of jorney is allowed.

 

[krus_aragon]

The explanation given was that BoJ was possible (using a suitable
ticket, of course) *provided* the journey was continued using the 0706
ex New Street on a subsequent day - and *only* that train. Using any
other ticket meant being off route, although I'm sure that the excess
fare due would be a matter for interesting discussion.

A contemporary example would be journeys from Shrewsbury to Cardiff. The only time you may travel via Swansea (Heart of Wales line) is on the 0519 departure, as it is a through service. If you were to break your journey from that train, there wouldn't be another service that day on which you could continue your journey.

If someone were to break such a journey and want to continue on the same day, I think the most rational action would be to 'excess' the ticket to only be valid as far as Neath (last station where the HoW line is a valid route) and offered a single from Neath to Cardiff. Am I right?

 

[yorkie]

new ticket from wherever the passenger boarded the invalid train to their destination (or to the point where the original ticket becomes valid, if applicable) surely?

 

[Helvellyn]

I maybe shouldn't be reading this with a headache, but I'm interpreting this issue as being misunderstood. It's not breaking the journey at Eastleigh that's the problem, but at Southampton.

People are buying Romsey to Eastleigh tickets and travelling via Southampton Central. This is the longer route, as via Chandlers Ford is the shorter routing. Now this is permitted, as long as they remain on the train. What is not permitted is to break the journey at Southampton Central. This is what people are trying to do, as it is cheaper to buy a Romsey to Eastleigh ticket than a Romsey to Southampton Central one.

Because the old Totton-Southampton-Eastleigh-Romsey service now routes Salisbury-Romsey-Southampton-Eastleigh-Romsey this created the two routings from Romsey to Eastleigh on a direct service. Someone thought they'd found a loophole to the more expensive fares to Southampton, and hence the briefing put out by SWT. And it's not just someone creating an internal policy without checking the facts on this one!

Nobody can be issued a Penalty Fare for breaking their journey at Southampton Central, because Romsey is not part of the South West Trains' Penalty Fare scheme (being an FGW station where no PF scheme is in place).

 

[glynn80]

I maybe shouldn't be reading this with a headache, but I'm interpreting this issue as being misunderstood. It's not breaking the journey at Eastleigh that's the problem, but at Southampton.

People are buying Romsey to Eastleigh tickets and travelling via Southampton Central. This is the longer route, as via Chandlers Ford is the shorter routing. Now this is permitted, as long as they remain on the train. What is not permitted is to break the journey at Southampton Central. This is what people are trying to do, as it is cheaper to buy a Romsey to Eastleigh ticket than a Romsey to Southampton Central one.

Why do you think this is the situation and not the breaking of journeys at Eastleigh that is the issue?

Also why cannot people break their journey at Southampton if what you state above is true?

Nobody can be issued a Penalty Fare for breaking their journey at Southampton Central, because Romsey is not part of the South West Trains' Penalty Fare scheme (being an FGW station where no PF scheme is in place).

Not sure people being issued Penalty Fares has ever been an issue here.

 

[tony_mac]

What is not permitted is to break the journey at Southampton Central.

Why do you believe that is the case?

This is what people are trying to do, as it is cheaper to buy a Romsey to Eastleigh ticket than a Romsey to Southampton Central one.

Is it? It looks more expensive to me.

 

[Helvellyn]

I read the brief today and it uses both Romsey to Eastleigh and Romsey to Southampton as examples.

To Eastleigh the shorter route is via Chandlers Ford, and that is the one most people would take. As I stated, they can also travel via Southampton, but a break of journey is not permitted.

To Southampton, the shorter route from Romsey is via Redbridge. Again, can travel via Eastleigh on the direct service, but no break of journey is allowed.

 

[glynn80]

To Eastleigh the shorter route is via Chandlers Ford, and that is the one most people would take. As I stated, they can also travel via Southampton, but a break of journey is not permitted.

To Southampton, the shorter route from Romsey is via Redbridge. Again, can travel via Eastleigh on the direct service, but no break of journey is allowed.

The question people are asking is "why" can't passengers break their journey.

None of these fares on either flow restrict break of journey (I've checked each in the FRPP), so what rule is it that states passengers cannot break their journey at either Eastleigh or Southampton?

 

[Matt Taylor]

Because people are buying Chandlers Ford to Eastleigh tickets and using them to travel to and from Southampton and by doing so they are paying less than they should be.

The SWT Kingston loop runs Waterloo-Waterloo via Kingston, you can buy a Clapham-Earlsfield ticket and travel on the loop service via Kingston as it is a direct service, but you would not be able to break your journey at Kingston because of the differential in the fare. Same applies with the old 0712 Waterloo-Brighton via Hedge End.

The briefing from SWT says that ATOC have endorsed the rules that SWT are applying on the Romsey/Eastleigh loop.

 

[glynn80]

Because people are buying Chandlers Ford to Eastleigh tickets and using them to travel to and from Southampton and by doing so they are paying less than they should be.

Whether there is a price anomaly is an irrelevance. There are thousands of pricing anomalies in the UK fares structure, but just because they are anomalies does not make said tickets invalid.

Unless there are specific rules stating that break of journey cannot occur and those rules are distributed through the official ATOC channels (and published within the FRPP), SWT cannot state that break of journey (a right within the NRCoC) is prohibited.

The SWT Kingston loop runs Waterloo-Waterloo via Kingston, you can buy a Clapham-Earlsfield ticket and travel on the loop service via Kingston as it is a direct service, but you would not be able to break your journey at Kingston because of the differential in the fare. Same applies with the old 0712 Waterloo-Brighton via Hedge End.

Unless the ticket type in question forbid Break of Journey, this would be permitted.

The briefing from SWT says that ATOC have endorsed the rules that SWT are applying on the Romsey/Eastleigh loop.

Would it be possible for you to send me a copy of the wording of this briefing via PM off forum and I will chase this up with ATOC officials as soon as possible.

 

[Drsatan]

I've looked through all the posts here and in my opinion, SWT are making the law up here. Even if the journey to Southampton should be made by the "shortest possible route or direct trains", the National Rail fares manual does not say that breaks in journey are not permitted if one decides not to travel by the "shortest possible route". If an ordinary passenger bought a Romsey - Southampton return and decided to get off at Eastleigh for whatever reason how would that person know that breaks of journey are, for some reason, forbidden?

And yes, there is a glaring discrepancy in fares. At 08:00 on Monday I went to Romsey ticket office and asked for a return to Southampton Airport. It cost me £5.60!!:-x Given that the return at the same time of day to Southampton Central is £3.70 it's not surprising that most people, like myself, would opt for the latter.

I'll be emailing SWT about this and I'll post any meaningful response.

Thanks for all your help guys
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ok, this is the email I've sent to SWT. Note that their website makes no mention of a complaints department or complaints recitification service which implies they are not interested in listening to complaints.

To whom it may concern

I recently arrived at Romsey station only to discover that when traveling from Romsey to Southampton via Eastleigh, a break of journey at Eastleigh is not permitted. I believe there are five ticket types available from Romsey to Southampton via Eastleigh or Redbridge, and according to the National Rail Fares Manual, a break of journey is permitted for all types of fare. Moreover, according to National Routing Guide Section A:

Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route.

Therefore, it should be permissible to travel from Romsey to Southampton via Eastleigh with a break of journey, because direct trains run from Romsey to Southampton via both Eastleigh and Redbridge. It is only if I travel via a patently absurd route, such as via Reading, that action needs to be taken. If a passenger, with no knowledge that a break of journey is forbidden, buys a Romsey - Southampton ticket and alights at Eastleigh for an entirely innocent purpose, then that person is technically a fare dodger and liable to a penalty fare. I do not want to see innocent passengers criminalised in this way.


Yours sincerely

PS: I've removed my name from this email, and I haven't mentioned the anomaly in fares between Romsey to Southampton and Eastleigh. This is because the customer services department might take my complaint more seriously, if I do not appear to be a scrounger.

 

[Helvellyn]

Note that their website makes no mention of a complaints department or complaints recitification service which implies they are not interested in listening to complaints.

On the front page of the website it states "Contact us", which if you click it takes you to the Customer Service Centre page. There you can get the phone number (0845 6000 650) to call up and speak to a member of staff, or you can click and complete the online comments form that is then picked up by one of the team in Southampton.

You can also get to the same section from the front page by clicking "Customer services" on the left hand menu, where you get a a drop down for contacting the Customer Service Centre.

It's not a complaints department as believe it or not people do write in to compliment the service they've received from South West Trains, not just to complain.

 

[dan_atki]

You must also remember that there will always be a discrepancy in fares unless SWT price them all themselves.

By this, I mean that currently fares along the south side of the figure-of-six are set by FGW as they were the sole operator for Southampton Central - Salisbury until the December 2007 timetable change. This resulted in the Romsey to Totton service being changed to Romsey to Salisbury.

As SWT and FGW cannot mutually set fares these discrepancies will always exist until ownership of the FGW flows passes to SWT. SWT (and indeed FGW) are powerless to do anything in that respect.

 

[OwlMan]

I recently arrived at Romsey station only to discover that when traveling from Romsey to Southampton via Eastleigh, a break of journey at Eastleigh is not permitted. I believe there are five ticket types available from Romsey to Southampton via Eastleigh or Redbridge, and according to the National Rail Fares Manual, a break of journey is permitted for all types of fare. Moreover, according to National Routing Guide Section A:

Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route.

Firstly you have only quoted the start of that paragraph it continues (with my emphasis)
A through train is advertised in the passenger railway timetable as a direct
service which offers travel between a customer’s origin station and final
destination, as printed on the ticket for the journey being made. This route
may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete
the journey. The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable.

By getting off the train you make a change of train necessary to complete the journey, and the route taken invalid.

The reasoning of why the ticket is not valid is below(I am only giving the reason I am not necessary agreeing with its conclusion)

The NCOC state

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route
within the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted routes”
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

I have highlighted the two points applicable

13(a)(i) explicity states "a through train, all other parts refer to trains, therefore the ticket is only valid on "A through train" (that is only one train not more than one)
13(b)(c) expilcity does not include 13(a)(i) as a permitted route therefore although you can travel on the through train it is not a permitted route and therefore as soon as you leave that train you have gone off route and your ticket is not valid.


Peter