Scotrail Bargain Berths getting on/off at Crewe

[nedchester]

Had a look at the Scotrail website and it would appear that you cannot get Bargain Berths from Crewe to say Inverness but only London.

Can you book a bargain berth and then get on at Crewe? Anyone done this?

 

[John @ home]

Can you book a bargain berth and then get on at Crewe?

The ScotRail web site indicates that you can't.

Caledonian Sleeper Bargain Berths
Which routes can I travel on?
Tickets are available on any of the Caledonian Sleeper services running from and to London Euston from North West England and over 40 Scottish destinations.
http://www.scotrail.co.uk/content/caledonian-sleeper-bargain-berths.html

Caledonian Sleeper Bargain Berths - Other Information
Can I break my journey? ×
http://www.scotrail.co.uk/content/caledonian-sleeper-bargain-berths-other-information.html

John

 

[nedchester]

The first quote says they are available from the North West but you cannot get Crewe to Inverness to come up.

The second one is about break of journey not stopping short.......!

 

[Greenback]

The first quote says that they are availabe from the North West to and from London, and the fact that it doesn't say from the North West to and from Scotland means that they are not available.

Sadly, there is a huge perception in the rail industry that everyone only wants to go to and from London.

 

[yorkie]

Getting off at Crewe would be no problem at all.

Getting on at Crewe would result in your berth already being allocated to someone else!

If a group of you were intending to board at Crewe, then I would advise one of the group take all travel documentation to Euston, and board there and check the entire group in with the sleeper attendant. This would ensure that the berths are not re-sold. While not officially allowed, this would work, as it is normal for customers to go to the lounge car anyway so perfectly feasible for one person to check in while the others go to the lounge car.

 

[nedchester]

I contacted Scotrail and got the following:

Thank you for your query regarding Bargain Berth Tickets.

Bargain Berth tickets are for end to end journeys only and as such boarding and alighting at intermediate stations (e.g. Crewe) is not permitted.

I hope this information was helpful, please let us know if you should have any further questions.

Regards


So yes you cannot get on at Crewe which is a bizarre rule. Was thinking of taking my son for a spin on it although may at some point do the whole trip anyhow.

 

[yorkie]

They're hardly going to imprison you on the train at Crewe, so the idea that you are "not permitted" to alight there is just some absurd rule that only the railways would ever invent. It can quite safely be ignored.

I'd like to tell the author of that letter that if they buy a bag of chips, they must consume all of the chips. Leaving any is not permitted. Yeah, it's easy to make up daft rules. But enforcing them is quite different.

 

[glynn80]

They're hardly going to imprison you on the train at Crewe, so the idea that you are "not permitted" to alight there is just some absurd rule that only the railways would ever invent. It can quite safely be ignored.

Well no they wouldn't imprison you but if they inform you that your ticket does not allow you to finish your journey short at Crewe and you ignore those instructions, on train staff may pass your details onto their retail control. It is not then very difficult to call up the details of your booking (they will already have your berth numbers etc.) and perhaps bill you for the civil debt that is owed to them.

I of course agree this is not a very likely scenario but as we have seen in the past, TOCs do take situations like this to the extreme in their crusade against fare evasion.

 

[yorkie]

In no way is that fare evasion, and I rather doubt that they would be able to work out which passengers alighting at Crewe were BB passengers, and then cross-reference that to figure out their address. Even if they worked all that out, I think we can safely say that they would not be able to prove anything in Court, and it would be thrown out anyway.

If people are really worried, the best thing to do is book at a station in cash rather than booking by phone or online. I'm sure FSR won't hire a detective to figure out who got a bargain berth and missed out on part of the journey they paid for.

I'd imagine the newspapers would be interested in any such story too.

 

[glynn80]

In no way is that fare evasion, and I rather doubt that they would be able to work out which passengers alighting at Crewe were BB passengers, and then cross-reference that to figure out their address.

Well I'm sorry but it is fare evasion. The correct fare to pay if the OP wants to travel one way in a berth from Crewe to Inverness on the Sleeper is £100.00. The Bargain Berth price is a fraction of that cost and the remainder unpaid (obviously depending on the level of BB purchased) is the fare being evaded.

It seems pretty simple to me that if the passenger jumped off at Crewe and was noted doing so by Scotrail staff, the Sleeper TM could cross reference the berth the passenger was in with the reservation the passenger made via retail control. Which part of the above do you think would difficult, considering the number of berth attendants that each Sleeper service has?

Even if they worked all that out, I think we can safely say that they would not be able to prove anything in Court, and it would be thrown out anyway.

As I have explained before, neither I nor you have any sort of legal qualifications so you cannot make these legal assumptions putting readers of this forum at ease when really you're luring them into a false sense of security. As we have seen time and time again TOCs do prosecute for the slightest conditions infracted upon.

If people are really worried, the best thing to do is book at a station in cash rather than booking by phone or online. I'm sure FSR won't hire a detective to figure out who got a bargain berth and missed out on part of the journey they paid for.

Bargain Berths are only available online.

 

[yorkie]

As we have seen time and time again TOCs do prosecute for the slightest conditions infracted upon.

Have there ever been any cases of a passenger accused of under-riding? If so, I'd love to hear about them and I'm sure the media would too!

Bargain Berths are only available online.

Yes I forgot about that, so it wouldn't work specifically with BBs, but more generally for AP tickets, then it would be true. Although I think it's a fuss about nothing.

 

[glynn80]

Have there ever been any cases of a passenger accused of under-riding? If so, I'd love to hear about them and I'm sure the media would too!

Not that exactly, but a story you yourself informed me of, was just as ridiculous and pretty similar to the case here:

Train firm takes man to court in 40p dispute
(http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/...-to.1245369.jp)

A LAW student from Yorkshire is being taken to court by Northern Rail for 40p after it claimed he got off the train at the wrong stop – despite his insisting it was a case of mistaken identity...

Yes I forgot about that, so it wouldn't work specifically with BBs, but more generally for AP tickets, then it would be true. Although I think it's a fuss about nothing.

Well I was specifically talking about BBs where you could easily cross reference the berth the passenger was travelling in with the reservation made. It would of course not be so easy with AP tickets (as very often passengers do not sit in their reserved seats) and I would doubt the same procedure I outlined above would take place with normal AP tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Over-riding is completely different to under-riding!

 

[Railjet]

As I have explained before, neither I nor you have any sort of legal qualifications so you cannot make these legal assumptions putting readers of this forum at ease when really you're luring them into a false sense of security.

Fair enough, yet you just said a few lines earlier:

Well I'm sorry but it is fare evasion.

Sorry - but fare evasion is a criminal offence (because it assumes intent) - has this ever (in this type of circumstance) been tested in the courts? As Yorkie says - probably not.

There could be a myriad of reasons why you have to get off a train at a scheduled stop before your destination - none of which is any business of the TOC. I'd love to see them try it in court - talk about invasion of privacy and withdrawal of liberties; it would be more like a police state.

Eurostar tried this on with their compulsory returns (cheaper than singles), threatening to charge anyone the excess if they didn't use the return. Sure they did :roll:. More recently, staff advised passengers wanting a single to buy a cheaper return and throw away the return half. Quite a turnaround. Economics won the day, I suspect.

 

[glynn80]

Fair enough, yet you just said a few lines earlier:

As I have explained before, neither I nor you have any sort of legal qualifications so you cannot make these legal assumptions putting readers of this forum at ease when really you're luring them into a false sense of security.

Well I'm sorry but it is fare evasion.

Sorry - but fare evasion is a criminal offence (because it assumes intent) - has this ever (in this type of circumstance) been tested in the courts? As Yorkie says - probably not.

There is a world of difference between stating something that has been proved against the terms and conditions and therefore is fare evasion and claiming a court will rule one side or another on a contentious issue.

Eurostar tried this on with their compulsory returns (cheaper than singles), threatening to charge anyone the excess if they didn't use the return. Sure they did :roll:.

Have you any evidence to support this?

 

[EltonRoad]

The fact is, it's stupid that you can book a Bargain Berth from Inverness to Euston but not to Crewe.

However, personally, I would be pretty uncomfortable trying to leg it out of the train hoping no-one saw me!

If you ask me, ScotRail need to revise their Sleeper fare structure. For one thing it's mad that the fare from Preston to Inverness is the same as from London. First Class Sleeper Single includes Underground travel and First Class Lounge and shower usage at Euston, none of which you can use at Preston.

Also, solo travellers like me are not well catered for. If you don't wish to share, the cheapest way of going return to Fort William is £236 - by buying two Advance Singles each way and having the cabin to yourself. Or you can do it for £238.30 with an Off Peak Return and a solo supplement each way, but that's often not available each way. And before anyone says solo supplements are supposed to be one way only, the ScotRail web site will let you book one in each direction in the same transaction.

I know - you could buy two bargain berths and have the cabin to yourself but they're usually sold out.

And - you could buy a Standard Single for £100, and if you end up having to share then pay the £36 upgrade. However First Class may then be sold out!

I gather it's easier on the Night Riviera, but then, I don't wish to travel to Penzance ...

 

[monkey]

..as I understand it, it booking a journey longer than you intend to travel for is illegal by law...

 

[gingerheid]

If you want to get off early you tell them you feel sick as you take panic attacks and this would have been your first journey in a confined space since the Incident.

They're not going to keep you on...

 

[monkey]

...plus it be difficult getting your brekkie and your wake-up call, as they only do that at the point they can pickup...

 

[gordonthemoron]

FSR's excuse that BBs aren't bookable to/from Crewe & Preston doesn't stack up if full price tickets are available. Especially if there are two of you sharing a cabin.

 

[tony_mac]

Eurostar tried this on with their compulsory returns (cheaper than singles), threatening to charge anyone the excess if they didn't use the return.

Have you any evidence to support this?

I don't know about Eurostar, but it is in the EuroTunnel terms and conditions.

 

[gordonthemoron]

so if you use eurotunnel on a cheap day return and your car gets nicked in france (or written off), you'll get charged extra for the privilege?

 

[tony_mac]

So they say;
http://www.eurotunnel.com/NR/rdonlyres/E1B99FD8-DB63-4B20-BE53-A6751AE4D0B9/0/TaCsUK.pdf

Failure to complete both the outward and return journeys in respect of a return booking will invalidate your booking and in the event that you complete only one journey in respect of a return booking, you will be liable to pay the difference between the price that you paid for your return booking and the single fare applicable at the time that your journey was made. Eurotunnel reserves the right to obtain from you payment in full for all sums so arising.

 

[glynn80]

I don't know about Eurostar, but it is in the EuroTunnel terms and conditions.

Well EuroTunnel and Eurostar are completely separate companies that happen to run trains on the same piece of track, I can only assume Railjet became confused over which company he meant.

 

[Railjet]

There is a world of difference between stating something that has been proved against the terms and conditions and therefore is fare evasion and claiming a court will rule one side or another on a contentious issue.

That's precisely the point. You say you are no legal expert, but then you go on to pre-judge that it's fraud! Only a court of law can decide this.

Have you any evidence to support this?

On the contrary, does anyone know of an instance when this happened?

Well EuroTunnel and Eurostar are completely separate companies that happen to run trains on the same piece of track, I can only assume Railjet became confused over which company he meant.

What right do you have to assume I meant that? I said Eurostar and that is what I meant.

 

[glynn80]

That's precisely the point. You say you are no legal expert, but then you go on to pre-judge that it's fraud! Only a court of law can decide this.

:roll: For god sake, Scotrail have confirmed the ticket is not valid on the Sleeper to Crewe. If any passenger were to disembark at Crewe they would be in violation of Railway Byelaw 18 stating:

In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

Of course I cannot state that a judge will 100% convict because of this but I can say with complete certainty they are in violation of Railway Byelaw 18.

What right do you have to assume I meant that? I said Eurostar and that is what I meant.

I have the right of free speech to state what I personally thought in my mind you meant.

If you are now stating I was incorrect in my assumption, provide any kind of evidence that what you have asserted above about Eurostar is in anyway truthful.

 

[tony_mac]

no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

I wonder what that has to do with disembarking?

 

[JustinStacey.x]

They're hardly going to imprison you on the train at Crewe, so the idea that you are "not permitted" to alight there is just some absurd rule that only the railways would ever invent. It can quite safely be ignored.

I'd like to tell the author of that letter that if they buy a bag of chips, they must consume all of the chips. Leaving any is not permitted. Yeah, it's easy to make up daft rules. But enforcing them is quite different.

Actually, I know of a few stations where the sleeper stops but it is not possible to alight, so I'd take this man's advice above with a pinch of salt!

 

[glynn80]

I wonder what that has to do with disembarking?

Well if they were to disembark at Crewe they would have entered the train with an invalid ticket.

 

[tony_mac]

errrm, the ticket was valid when they entered the train, wasn't it?