10 ways to avoid penalty fares on trains

[DaveNewcastle]

Saw this article by Andrew Gilligan on penaltyfareappeal.co.uk recently which some on here might appreciate:
OUR 10 RULES FOR BEATING THE TICKET INSPECTOR at http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/wordpress/?p=421

I'm sure he won't mind just a small quote here to give you the idea....
" you do, in fact, have quite extensive rights not to be charged penalty fares, many of them set out in law. Rights designed, in the words of the Government, to “make sure that the interests of honest passengers are protected”.
The chances are that if you have a reasonable excuse not to pay a penalty fare, you do not have to pay it – whatever a train company’s staff may claim. If you are prepared to quote your rights and call their bluff, you will usually prevail.
Provided always that you do pay the normal single fare, the chances are that any threats made against you, particularly of criminal prosecution, are hollow.
Train companies often scare people into paying up by threatening prosecution and a criminal record. However, the legislation establishing penalty fares, the Railways Act 1993, section 130, states that apart from failing to give your right name and address, “nothing in this section creates, or authorises the creation of any [criminal] offence”. The Penalty Fares Regulations 1994 state that “the recovery of a penalty fare is a civil debt”. So even if after reading your letter the company still decides it wants the money, it has to sue you – probably not worthwhile for such a small sum."
(You may remember Andrew Gilligan for his reporting for the BBC that the "45 minute" excuse for the UK & US attacking Iraq was inaccurate. He now writes for London's Evening Standard)

Probably worth remembering much of his findings on this thorny issue?

 

[JustinStacey.x]

What really grinds my gears is when the ticket man is not at the window so I can't buy a reduced ticket with my YP card. So I get on the train rather than missing it, and when I buy one on train the inspector goes 'Can't use that YP card on here' even if I explain why i didn't buy one at the station. Idiots. And its not as if their on-train machines lack the ability because I've had decent ticket inspectors sell me reduced tickets onboard.

May I note that said instance of ticket man not being at the window happens often in Gourock.

 

[monkey]

^^on the harrogate line which I use frequently, between burley park and leeds, I used to have to buy on board and they used always honour my yp, cos there used to be no ticket machine at burley park until recently (even then you can only use debit card on it). what irritates me is at leeds station the northern rail machines don't have yp discount option on screen even though it has a sign on the machine that it does - it means I have to go to the ticket office, who just look at me as if I'm a skinflint (its 95p with yp, £1.40 for single without - which does build up everday over the year)...

 

[JustinStacey.x]

Rail staff are just so unfriendly in Scotland. When I went down to London, I was greatly surprised that with every train I got on heading into Surrey, there was actually an announcement by a *person* saying where we were going, how many carriages the train had and even if we stopped for as little as 30 seconds for a signal they'd say why. In scotland you get none of that except automated speaker systems on the trains which are sometimes wrong. Rail staff are often unhelpful and you really have to fend for yourself.

 

[monkey]

^^dunno lived in edinburgh few months, found the staff quite friendly. london staff can be, and some have incredible knowledge but on the whole I'd say further north you go, the friendlier people in general, rail staff included. exceptions of course in certain places like leeds...

 

[JustinStacey.x]

Uh yeah and glasgow. A dour faced bunch apart fae a few...

 

[route:oxford]

May I note that said instance of ticket man not being at the window happens often in Gourock.

As I interpret it, it's far more important for Scotrail staff to be out sweeping platforms and emptying bins rather than selling tickets.

I won't say which station it was but last Saturday, with 15 minutes to spare, there was 12 people in front of me queuing for tickets from the vending machine - by the time I abandonded the queue and boarded there was still 3 people ahead of me and 10 behind. The ticket chap was sweeping the platform.

Fortunately, the "gripper" was happy to sell me a ticket on the train having noticed the issue with the vending machine and the sweeping ticket seller. It's a regular issue at the particular station.

 

[mathmo]

If station staff aren't selling tickets when you think they should be, have you tried complaining directly to ScotRail? Something might then be done about it - it could just be that management doesn't know at the moment!

 

[EM2]

This interests me:
'in separate guidance on penalty fares (”Penalty Fares Policy”) issued by the Department for Transport, it is made quite clear, in clauses 4.2 and 4.11, that passengers must be given “sufficent opportunity” to buy a ticket and that regular queues over three minutes (off-peak) and five minutes (peak) breach the definition of what is “sufficient”.

So, if you go to the station and think, 'Hmm, that's a long queue. My train leaves in six minutes and I won't get served within five minutes' then it's OK?
Surely you would actually have to queue for five minutes and *then* go fo rthe train?

 

[glynn80]

This interests me:
'in separate guidance on penalty fares (”Penalty Fares Policy”) issued by the Department for Transport, it is made quite clear, in clauses 4.2 and 4.11, that passengers must be given “sufficent opportunity” to buy a ticket and that regular queues over three minutes (off-peak) and five minutes (peak) breach the definition of what is “sufficient”.

So, if you go to the station and think, 'Hmm, that's a long queue. My train leaves in six minutes and I won't get served within five minutes' then it's OK?
Surely you would actually have to queue for five minutes and *then* go fo rthe train?

Yes 4.2 and 4.11 do state what is quoted in the above however what the article fails to mention is clause 4.12 which states:

4.12 Where penalty fares apply, passengers must allow enough time to buy a ticket, including time to queue, if necessary. Under normal circumstances, passengers may still be charged a penalty fare if they join a train without a ticket, even if there was a queue at the ticket office or ticket machine. However, we expect operators to provide enough ticket windows, ticket machines and staff at staffed stations to meet the queuing standards set out in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement and their Passenger's Charter under normal circumstances. This standard is normally five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times. If queues at a particular station regularly fail to meet these standards at certain times or days of the week, the operator must either take action to sort out the problem before a penalty fares scheme is introduced or make sure that passengers are not charged penalty fares when these queuing standards are not met. This might include providing extra staff or ticket machines. A penalty fares scheme must include arrangements for telling authorised collectors when long queues build up at ticket offices (see paragraph 4.33).

So it isn't as clear cut as Andrew Gilligan would have us make out.

 

[Helvellyn]

What Andrew Gilligan also fails to make clear is that when a member of Revenue Protection talks about prosecution they don't mean for not paying the Penalty Fare. If you decide not to pay the £20 (or twice the single if it's greater) on SWT, then you must give your name and address details. You've 21 days to appeal or pay. After that the company that handles the Penalty Fares starts writing to you, and charging an admin fee for doing so. Failure to pay after that will likely lead to prosecution for the original fare not paid under the Regulations of Railways Act 1889.

I know SWT prosecute a surprising number of people under this Act, and it's not recovery of a civil debt in that instance like Andrew Gilligan implies. It also gives you a criminal record for fare evasion.

JustinStacey.x - does the station you travel from have a Ticket Vending Machine? You should be able to use your YP card on that.

monkey - Have you asked someone at Leeds to show you how to get the YP discount up? It will be on the machine it just seems you're having trouble finding it.


A tip to avoid a Penalty Fare is to remember Condition 3 of the Conditions of Carriage. If you can't buy the ticket you require then buy one that will take you part of the way on your journey. For example, to the next stop. Then when you board the train go find the Guard/Ticket Collector immediately and ask them to excess your ticket up to the one you require. Of course, this won't work if you're making a very cheap journey anyway.

 

[TEW]

FGW, who don't have Penalty Fares on most parts of the network also prosecute a lot of people for Fare Evasion, they have their own prosecution team, and they very rarely lose in court. Top tip is don't fare evade in the first place.

 

[glynn80]

FGW, who don't have Penalty Fares on most parts of the network also prosecute a lot of people for Fare Evasion, they have their own prosecution team, and they very rarely lose in court. Top tip is don't fare evade in the first place.

This claim is slightly misleading because the TOCs aren't actually fighting the majority of their fare evasion cases in court.

In the vast majority of cases the statistics show that passengers enter a guilty plea and therefore there is no case for the TOCs to fight. For example the stats for one particular TOC were as follows

One TOC deals with 3,000 cases of fare evasion, and 500 prosecutions leading to a criminal conviction per month. For that TOC in only 6 to 10 cases a month (out of the 500 prosecutions) is there a 'not guilty' plea.

So only 1.2% of defendants actually entered a not guilty plea and fought this particular TOC.

It would be interesting to see how many of those defendants won their case, I suspect it might be a high percentage.


P.S. I'm not having a go at you, just commenting so don't go mental like last time I questioned you.

 

[paul1609]

Is it only First group companies that refuse the railcard discount on board? Even though Littlehampton is in the NSE penalty fares area it doesnt seem to be enforced down here and the Guards seem happy to sell you any ticket you want. There is if you like a local custom down here that if you want to buy a ticket onboard you find the guard and its usual to see a group of people queueing around the guard on the stoppers in to portsmouth in the morning.

Yesterday evening I arrived at Gatwick airport to find the many fastticket machines swarmed with foreign arrivals and a huge queue at the ticket office with only 5 mins to the hourly service to Littlehampton. Watched what door the Guard was at and got on no problem purchasing a ticket with discount.

 

[Helvellyn]

Is it only First group companies that refuse the railcard discount on board?

They're enforcing Condition 2 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, and are certainly not the only TOCs that do so. SWT also do this, largely in support of the Penalty Fare scheme, but other TOCs without a Penalty Fare Scheme do as well.

If there was an opportunity for you to purchase your ticket before boarding then not only would you likely be refused any railcard discount, you could also find yourself buying a full price Anytime ticket - even if (Super) Off Peak is available at that time of day.

Those Southern Guards should be issuing a Penalty Fare Warning with the tickets they sell you on the train. They may be using their discretion, but you need to be aware that if it was Revenue you could get a Penalty Fare. Likewse, if their Avantix was not working you could be liable for a Penalty Fare on arrival into Portsmouth. It's annoying how many Guards think using discretion though exempts them from issuing the PFW. And ecah TOC has its own Penalty Fare scheme, and I know that SWT and Southern have a reciprocal agreement - so SWT Revenue can Penalty Fare you at those stations which are also served by Southern.

 

[Aictos]

Here's one example of how not to travel:

Male passenger in suit jumps on a train at Finsbury Park and gets off at Hertford North and attempts to get though the barriers ignoring the fact that he has now caused the RPI on duty to PF him as he hasn't brought a ticket.

This is despite there being a ticket office available and TVMs being available to be used at Finsbury Park - all are in full working order.

Getting to the barriers at Hertford North and shouting I'm in a hurry, I haven't got time for the PF doesn't work too well for the passenger.

Then when a another passenger asks the passenger to calm down as the RPI was dealing with two passengers at the same time to be abusive to them.

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The best way to avoid paying any PFs is to ensure you have a valid ticket for that train before you board which if that is not possible due to reasons beyond the passenger's control then revenue staff working on that line will get notified by pager messages of any issues.

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[adamp]

What really grinds my gears is when the ticket man is not at the window so I can't buy a reduced ticket with my YP card. So I get on the train rather than missing it, and when I buy one on train the inspector goes 'Can't use that YP card on here' even if I explain why i didn't buy one at the station. Idiots. And its not as if their on-train machines lack the ability because I've had decent ticket inspectors sell me reduced tickets onboard.

May I note that said instance of ticket man not being at the window happens often in Gourock.

Arghhhh, that happened to me yesterday. I was so ****Ed off !!!!!!!!

 

[Mojo]

Most local stations in the West Midlands only have ticket office staff on the station during the day (Walsall, Sandwell/Dudley & Solihull being notable exceptions) meaning that the ticket office often has to be temporarily closed when a customer who requires mobility assistance passes through. In many cases often the ticket office staff don't have time to inform control that they will be closed, and in many cases the closure is 5 Mins or less so don't bother anyway.

'glynn80' has posted here in the past he has been issued with a PF when using his Priv but the station ticket office was closed. The issue might have been resolved at a later date but it's still not really acceptable for things like that to happen.

 

[me123]

What really grinds my gears is when the ticket man is not at the window so I can't buy a reduced ticket with my YP card. So I get on the train rather than missing it, and when I buy one on train the inspector goes 'Can't use that YP card on here' even if I explain why i didn't buy one at the station. Idiots. And its not as if their on-train machines lack the ability because I've had decent ticket inspectors sell me reduced tickets onboard.

May I note that said instance of ticket man not being at the window happens often in Gourock.

Happens at Blairhill. I've got a camera phone, so I've taken to photographing the sign saying that station staff are "performing essential duties" (normally meaning a coffee break) just to back me up. I've never needed to use it because the staff, in my experience, are generally a nice lot (don't know where your experience comes from!). It'll happen more and more often now that Off Peak tickets cannot be purchased on board.

 

[garnon]

The penalty fare warning appears automatically on the reverse of the ticket as far as i know.

Also, not listed in the top 10 - and perhaps my favourite - is that a TOC is required to accept a cheque. So providing a machine (which accepts either cards or cash) is not an acceptable alternative IF the ticket office is closed.

 

[TEW]

There is a separate Penalty Fare Warning ticket which should be issued when a passenger buys on board a train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This claim is slightly misleading because the TOCs aren't actually fighting the majority of their fare evasion cases in court.

In the vast majority of cases the statistics show that passengers enter a guilty plea and therefore there is no case for the TOCs to fight. For example the stats for one particular TOC were as follows



So only 1.2% of defendants actually entered a not guilty plea and fought this particular TOC.

It would be interesting to see how many of those defendants won their case, I suspect it might be a high percentage.

[/I]

I doubt many people win, as the TOCs are unlikely to take people to court if they won't win.

 

[Zamracene749]

Perhaps we should follow the example of some european countries- if you cannot get a ticket at a staffed station before boarding it becomes your responsibility to seek out the guard promptly and purchase a ticket.

If you just sit back and let the guard find you then it's penalty fare time.

This way freeloaders get caught, but honest pax that wanted to buy a ticket but couldn't eg due to long queues can still travel.

 

[TEW]

That generally is the case in this country, if you seek out the guard they are much more likely to sell you a discounted ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Arghhhh, that happened to me yesterday. I was so ****Ed off !!!!!!!!

Why? It's their problem, not yours. Only hand over the right money for a YP discounted ticket, and not a penny more. They cannot legally demand any more money from you.

 

[northwichcat]

It's a while since I've purchased a railcard discounted ticket from a ticket machine, but I think the process was something like:

* Select your destination from the list or key it in if it's not on the list.
* The adult fares will be displayed.
* Somewhere near the bottom there's an extra button saying railcard and other discounts, select this, then select the type of railcard you have, then the adult fares screen will reappear with discounted fares.