Northern's Problems in the North West

[Red Devil]

Can someone explain the situation re Sunday working? I understood that all Sunday work was on rest day/overtime, i.e. voluntary, but that, with the welcome increase in Sunday trains (welcome to passengers, that is) there was a move to include Sundays into the working week as the old way of doing things was no longer an option.

Sunday working on the west is the both worlds. They have to be worked if there isn't any cover.

 

[Bungle965]

19 cancellations this morning, expect the number to rise through the day.
Manchester - Liverpool services appear now to be taking the brunt of the cancellations.
Sam

 

[B&I]

Funny how little cimment Northern' s current incapability has attracted from some posters, the ones who like to remind us how much the RMT strikes affect ordinary working people

 

[northwichcat]

Funny how little cimment Northern' s current incapability has attracted from some posters, the ones who like to remind us how much the RMT strikes affect ordinary working people

While both problems need sorting out, at least if Northern cancel the last service due to a driver shortage they are required to arrange alternative transport, whereas a strike can result in no services all day on certain sections and a much earlier last service on every route with a Northern service.

 

[Overspeed110]

While both problems need sorting out, at least if Northern cancel the last service due to a driver shortage they are required to arrange alternative transport, whereas a strike can result in no services all day on certain sections and a much earlier last service on every route with a Northern service.

But at least with the strikes you have 2 weeks notice to plan anything and you will know whats running and where, with the current farce that is Northern you dont know from day to day or even hour to hour whats going on.

 

[northwichcat]

2 weeks notice isn't much if you've booked tickets months in advance.

 

[B&I]

The disruption takes on a different form, but is probably nearly as troublesome

 

[Starmill]

But at least with the strikes you have 2 weeks notice to plan anything and you will know whats running and where, with the current farce that is Northern you dont know from day to day or even hour to hour whats going on.

Notice is well and good but some travellers receive zero minutes notice too, e.g someone who books a London to Harrogate Advance on VTEC's website.

But if Northern make one cancellation they're required to organise a replacement, which usually happens, even if it's just the next train.

On a Strike day Northern refuse to organise replacements. I've been in the situation where I've booked weeks in advance, then a strike is announced and there are no further trains. Northern staff point blank refuse to organise a taxi or overnight accommodation on strike days when I've had this problem. They also refuse for tickets to be accepted on the local buses and trams that are running and could have got me to my destination. In other words a very clear breach of contract which they just refuse to do anything about, even though they could and it would be easy enough. Note that even Southern usually didn't leave people in this position, as they did everything they could to use bus replacement or get tickets accepted on rival transport services including London Buses, Tramlink etc.

 

[northwichcat]

Notice is well and good but some travellers receive zero minutes notice too, e.g someone who books a London to Harrogate Advance on VTEC's website.

But if Northern make one cancellation they're required to organise a replacement, which usually happens, even if it's just the next train.

On a Strike day Northern refuse to organise replacements. I've been in the situation where I've booked weeks in advance, then a strike is announced and there are no further trains. Northern staff point blank refuse to organise a taxi or overnight accommodation on strike days when I've had this problem. They also refuse for tickets to be accepted on the local buses and trams that are running and could have got me to my destination. In other words a very clear breach of contract which they just refuse to do anything about, even though they could and it would be easy enough. Note that even Southern usually didn't leave people in this position, as they did everything they could to use bus replacement or get tickets accepted on rival transport services including London Buses, Tramlink etc.

There is an EU law stating that train companies must get people in possession of a ticket to where they want to go or put them in a hotel overnight. However, I think the law contains an exception for industrial action so the TOC can just say "There's no trains today, you can either get a refund or travel on a different day"

I find Northern's arrangement or lack of arrangements with Metrolink/bus companies strange:
- When there was that incident at Cornbrook on the Metrolink, Northern accepted all tickets even though it meant one Chester via Altrincham service left passengers behind. When Metrolink have agreed to take Northern tickets it's only been monthly or longer season tickets (sometimes no acceptance at all.) If passengers have no viable alternative they are going to use Metrolink anyway, it's just a case of whether or not they have to pay extra for using it.
- Northern tickets are supposed to be accepted on all Arriva bus services but they don't publicise the routes. In one case they even publicised a D&G Bus service as an alternative between Macclesfield and Congleton (which wasn't accepting train tickets) but didn't publicise the Arriva service between Macclesfield and Congleton which should have been accepting rail tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Traditionally strikes used to exempt them from doing anything - is this the case now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is an EU law stating that train companies must get people in possession of a ticket to where they want to go or put them in a hotel overnight. However, I think the law contains an exception for industrial action so the TOC can just say "There's no trains today, you can either get a refund or travel on a different day"

I find Northern's arrangement or lack of arrangements with Metrolink/bus companies strange:
- When there was that incident at Cornbrook on the Metrolink, Northern accepted all tickets even though it meant one Chester via Altrincham service left passengers behind. When Metrolink have agreed to take Northern tickets it's only been monthly or longer season tickets (sometimes no acceptance at all.) If passengers have no viable alternative they are going to use Metrolink anyway, it's just a case of whether or not they have to pay extra for using it.
- Northern tickets are supposed to be accepted on all Arriva bus services but they don't publicise the routes. In one case they even publicised a D&G Bus service as an alternative between Macclesfield and Congleton (which wasn't accepting train tickets) but didn't publicise the Arriva service between Macclesfield and Congleton which should have been accepting rail tickets.

Of course this wouldn't be an issue within the cities if there was a unified tariff for all public transport, and it's probably less of an issue within the cities as many people will still have the local (optional) all-modes travelcards (Metrolink excepted).

It's ironic that the one mode that TfGM have and always have had full control of (Metrolink) has never been fully included in the CountyCard.

 

[northwichcat]

Of course this wouldn't be an issue within the cities if there was a unified tariff for all public transport, and it's probably less of an issue within the cities as many people will still have the local (optional) all-modes travelcards (Metrolink excepted).

It's ironic that the one mode that TfGM have and always have had full control of (Metrolink) has never been fully included in the CountyCard.

Those most likely to use Metrolink on a strike day but not a normal day would be those starting or ending their journeys outside Greater Manchester e.g. Northwich to Manchester or Eccles to Warrington.

 

[Bungle965]

Either Northern are not bothering to get acceptance or Metrolink are refusing but during the last couple of strikes they have not included acceptance on Metrolink at all, I seem to remember the first couple of strikes they accepted everyone's ticket after which it was changed to only being season tickets up until the point where we are at now where they have no acceptance at all.
Surely over time ticket acceptance on local buses and trams should be getting better not worse!
Sam

 

[northwichcat]

Either Northern are not bothering to get acceptance or Metrolink are refusing but during the last couple of strikes they have not included acceptance on Metrolink at all, I seem to remember the first couple of strikes they accepted everyone's ticket after which it was changed to only being season tickets up until the point where we are at now where they have no acceptance at all.
Surely over time ticket acceptance on local buses and trams should be getting better not worse!
Sam

Unless there's a significant change to the services they are providing. For example, if on strike days they started running Manchester-Altrincham-Chester services rather than just Altrincham-Chester services it might make sense to remove ticket acceptance on Metrolink, but that isn't something they have done.

 

[Bovverboy]

Have I got this right? Northern drivers can't work rest days (except on Sundays) because there isn't an RDW (Rest Day Working) agreement in place between themselves and Northern, and Northern don't want an RDW agreement because it's more profitable to run half a train service than a full one.
As for the strikes, I do get the impression that Northern, and, probably, all the other affected TOCs, want them more than the crews.

 

[Smidster]

Surely over time ticket acceptance on local buses and trams should be getting better not worse!
Sam

Surely this underlines how our current system fails to produce an integrated transport network.

If you are Metrolink then you might be willing to help out once or twice but when it becomes clear that it is going to be a long running dispute and strikes a regular occurrence then Metrolink management start to see those passengers as revenue opportunities who might make a permanent switch instead of people who need to get from A to B

 

[Bungle965]

Mayor of Manchester, Andy Burnham has now got involved.

Sam

 

[Bungle965]

Surely this underlines how our current system fails to produce an integrated transport network.

If you are Metrolink then you might be willing to help out once or twice but when it becomes clear that it is going to be a long running dispute and strikes a regular occurrence then Metrolink management start to see those passengers as revenue opportunities who might make a permanent switch instead of people who need to get from A to B

Indeed, they are still catering for the demand on strike days by putting double trams on selected Rochdale to East Didsbury services. Parallels can be drawn to the Southern strikes where the disruption was rather more widespread but managed comprehensive ticket acceptance on buses and trams.
I think this is a discussion for a different thread however.
Sam

 

[47802]

Mayor of Manchester, Andy Burnham has now got involved.
View attachment 46775
Sam

About time, while I'm no fan of Andy Burnham the current situation is not acceptable and needs to be sorted out.

 

[jamesst]

Just for an example the 1103 Man Airport-Southport today terminates at Wigan Wallgate and return journey starts at Wigan, reason given as a shortage of drivers.
Is this because the original driver has no relief available or doesn't sign up to Southport?
It does seem a bit odd for one half trip to Southport and back to be cancelled when the rest of the service can operate and indeed restart later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't a Wigan driver take it to/from Southport?

 

[Loop & Link]

A Wigan driver takes the 11:03 up to Wigan, relieved by another Wigan driver at Wigan Wallgate who takes it up to Southport.

The return work 12:23 Southport-Man Air should be the same driver throughout, however another Wigan driver travels pass Wigan Wallgate to Manchester Oxford Rd, which is why it can start there, driver will work it instead of going pass.

 

[weastebusdepot]

It's difficult to take Andy Burnham's letter seriously when he can't even get right the name of the company he has an issue with. If he wants to strip Northern Rail of their franchise he's two years too late!

 

[northwichcat]

It's difficult to take Andy Burnham's letter seriously when he can't even get right the name of the company he has an issue with. If he wants to strip Northern Rail of their franchise he's two years too late!

He's probably paid too much attention to the RMT Press Releases referring to Northern Rail.

 

[PHILIPE]

Not quite so bad on the Windermere Branch this week although on Monday there were 3 consecutive trips lunchtime cancelled.

 

[js1000]

About time, while I'm no fan of Andy Burnham the current situation is not acceptable and needs to be sorted out.

The franchise is a mess.

People are on here only obsessed with rolling stock - yet Northern are doing the basics wrong for passengers who use the service everyday.

Constant off-peak fare increases, "modernisation" programme that simply consists of painting the train white (compare with TPE and it's a very basic refurb) and a worsening PPM. These issues are not affected by the availability of rolling stock, but decisions taken in Northern's management.

The managing director needlessly getting into petty debates with Twitter users probably sums it up perfectly and where Northern are at right now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I mentioned in another thread on this, when does time come for an emergency timetable thinning out the service but with longer trains and simpler self-contained diagrams? It seems sorely needed to me for at least maybe the next 6-12 months until recruitment can be carried out?

 

[northwichcat]

As I mentioned in another thread on this, when does time come for an emergency timetable thinning out the service but with longer trains and simpler self-contained diagrams? It seems sorely needed to me for at least maybe the next 6-12 months until recruitment can be carried out?

First North Western did that at one stage. It resulted in many routes losing at least some of their peak time extras, some middle of the day services and late services being replaced by buses. However, the problem now is many lines now see at least some services which are already operated by trains at the maximum possible length and those which don't are lines which don't have frequent services. So unless Network Rail undertake some emergency platform lengthening works or Northern swap existing units for units with SDO (which would then create an even bigger driver shortage initially due to crew training) the options for doing that are quite limited.

 

[Sankey Wire]

A number of stops (including mine) were cancelled on the 0745 Lime Street - Oxford Road this morning; however, this was not reflected on any real time systems and the train simply appeared to be “delayed”. It took the (very nice) lady in the ticket office making a call to a few stations and yelling across the track for us to find out.

It’s an absolute shambles and I really feel for the front-line staff who are taking the brunt of the anger and frustration from passengers.

 

[Mathew S]

As I mentioned in another thread on this, when does time come for an emergency timetable thinning out the service but with longer trains and simpler self-contained diagrams? It seems sorely needed to me for at least maybe the next 6-12 months until recruitment can be carried out?

On the routes West/North-West of Manchester, there's no possibility of running longer trains without also lengthening platforms, which I think we can all agree isn't going to happen any time soon.

From what I've seen first hand, mostly in Greater Manchester, at least Northern are making intelligent(ish) decisions about what they cancel, and maintaining at least a usable, skeleton service on most lines.

Speaking entirely from a personal point of view, I don't have a problem with things as they are right now and, other than strike days, have only experienced three cancellations since the start of the year. The promised improvements to service through more, longer trains, running earlier and later, and with better customer service thanks to DCO, will - for me - be well worth the limited short term pain.