Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Spartacus]

I'm going from TRUST, but it's quite possible it might have failed upload.

 

[Starmill]

Seems there are a few bits and bobs in paper timetables not yet shown on NRE. Perhaps not too much of a surprise under the circumstances.

 

[northwichcat]

I remember it being posted previously that the 13:58 Stoke to Piccadilly on Saturdays was set to skip Stockport and call at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme. However, I don't recall anyone saying that service skips Cheadle Hulme as well, meaning you can't even change to an ex-Crewe service if you want Stockport.

 

[Starmill]

However, I don't recall anyone saying that service skips Cheadle Hulme as well, meaning you can't even change to an ex-Crewe service if you want Stockport.

No, this was a point I made. I made the point that anyone going to Stockport needed to travel via Heaton Chapel, and specualted as to weather Northern would charge a higher fare for that.

 

[yorksrob]

Seems there are a few bits and bobs in paper timetables not yet shown on NRE. Perhaps not too much of a surprise under the circumstances.

Part of me does wonder whether a train back at 23:30 on a Saturday isn't "too good to be true"

 

[northwichcat]

Surely 1758 is much better than 1716? If you finish work at 5 and can't get to the station in 14 minutes or less then you are stuffed at present...

I agree the current service is a bit early but, for someone who works 9-5 (which I revognise isn't everyone but is effectively who the limited service is aimed at) 1758 feels a little late. It's moving the Leeds arrival to 0850 that is the bigger issue though. That hardly leaves time to get out of the station by 0900, let alone get to work.

I used to work 1.5 miles from the nearest station and had a 17:30 finish. In those circumstances a 17:58 train home sounds like the ideal time to have a train.

 

[yorksrob]

Part of me does wonder whether a train back at 23:30 on a Saturday isn't "too good to be true"

And so it came to pass. A decent Saturday night service back from Leeds to the Wakefield area is indeed "too good to be true".

Northern confirmed to me that whilst they had asked for the service to be included in the new timetable, Network Rail have knocked it back for their own operating convenience, citing the need to do engineering works in the Doncaster area.

Of course, this doesn't explain why they can't cough up for a bus, if they want to do engineering, or why a decent service can't be run to Wakefield.

If I recall correctly, this will completely screw up connections from the Settle Carlisle of an evening.

 

[Puffing Devil]

First Sunday of an hourly service from Crewe-Manchester and we have...... Buses. Thanks to engineering work. Just as I had planned a reasonable trip into Manchester for the Cricket.

 

[sprinterguy]

A bit late to the party here but I am disappointed to see the withdrawal of the 22:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Macclesfield, replaced by an earlier 22:18 departure. This train has been my preferred service back from Manchester as it acts as a handy relief to the final 23:14 service, and hence is generally a good deal quieter than the latter which is often packed to the gunwales particularly on a Friday or Saturday night.

A train at 22:50 only marginally reduced my time in the pub compared to the final train for the benefit of a pleasanter travelling experience, and also provided a more robust connection when travelling back from east of the Pennines late evening, rather than having to rely solely on the final 23:14 actually running. The 22:50 service was also handily timed for after the end of a lot of gigs in central Manchester venues.

The new preceding 22:18 train is too early for most gigs finishing, leaves a gap of 56 minutes between penultimate and final trains (while virtually duplicating the faster 22:07 departure for Stockport and Macclesfield passengers Monday to Friday), and ergo the 23:14 is going to become even busier. Seems to be quite a major own goal in terms of providing appropriate capacity and actually meeting passenger demand.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

A bit late to the party here but I am disappointed to see the withdrawal of the 22:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Macclesfield, replaced by an earlier 22:18 departure. This train has been my preferred service back from Manchester as it acts as a handy relief to the final 23:14 service, and hence is generally a good deal quieter than the latter which is often packed to the gunwales particularly on a Friday or Saturday night.

A train at 22:50 only marginally reduced my time in the pub compared to the final train for the benefit of a pleasanter travelling experience, and also provided a more robust connection when travelling back from east of the Pennines late evening, rather than having to rely solely on the final 23:14 actually running. The 22:50 service was also handily timed for after the end of a lot of gigs in central Manchester venues.

The new preceding 22:18 train is too early for most gigs finishing, leaves a gap of 56 minutes between penultimate and final trains (while virtually duplicating the faster 22:07 departure for Stockport and Macclesfield passengers Monday to Friday), and ergo the 23:14 is going to become even busier. Seems to be quite a major own goal in terms of providing appropriate capacity and actually meeting passenger demand.

I was just thinking if anyone should be happy with the new timetable it should be Macclesfield (And the Cumbrian Coast)
Clearly Not.

Extra peak service, an extra tph from CrossCountry and no reductions!
Unlike some nearby stations...

 

[sprinterguy]

I was just thinking if anyone should be happy with the new timetable it should be Macclesfield (And the Cumbrian Coast)
Clearly Not.

Extra peak service, an extra tph from CrossCountry and no reductions!
Unlike some nearby stations...

The extra Crosscountry call each hour will be useful, even if I can't work out exactly why Macc's warranted it haha, though it isn't directly related to the Northern timetable changes, or lack of compared to what was promised. I hadn't noticed an extra peak service (I haven't checked the timetable in that much detail), only that the planned all day half hourly service (and hourly Sunday service) has been, presumably, postponed.

Thanks to the Crosscountry frequency increase there's an overall improvement, but the loss of that late evening service is something of an unexpected and unpleasant surprise. A drop in the ocean overall, but it has me scratching my head as to why, with so few of the promised Northern improvements materialising, it was deemed necessary to shift the time of a single train that late in the evening when it serves a useful purpose.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

The extra Crosscountry call each hour will be useful, even if I can't work out exactly why Macc's warranted it haha, though it isn't directly related to the Northern timetable changes, or lack of compared to what was promised. I hadn't noticed an extra peak service (I haven't checked the timetable in that much detail), only that the planned all day half hourly service (and hourly Sunday service) has been, presumably, postponed.

The ridiculously busy 1710 Deansgate to Stoke-on-Trent (all stations Stockport-Congleton then non-stop to Stoke) is being cut back to terminate at Macclesfield from Monday. I was on this yesterday; 26 alighted at MAC with 73 still on beyond, 68 of those alighted at Congleton.
Both the 1646 and 1746 are equally busy, ridiculous move.
That train after the change runs:
5K50 Longsight Car MD to Stockport P0 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22822/2018/05/21/advanced
2K50 0724 Stockport to Macclesfield P3 (0746 arrival) http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69814/2018/05/21/advanced
2M62 0749 Macclesfield to Manchester Piccadilly P12 (0830 arrival) http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22824/2018/05/21/advanced

Then it sits in P12 at Man Picc for over 8.5 hours and leaves on the

2K50 1721 Manchester Piccadilly to Macclesfield P3 (0753 arrival) http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69874/2018/05/21/advanced
5K50 Macclesfield to Stockport Car MD http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22826/2018/05/21/advanced


Plus the last train to Congleton is 2143 which is WAY too early and breaks the DfT Service Level Commitments.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Plus the last train to Congleton is 2143 which is WAY too early and breaks the DfT Service Level Commitments.

That is shocking!

 

[northwichcat]

Plus the last train to Congleton is 2143 which is WAY too early and breaks the DfT Service Level Commitments.

That is shocking!

In TRS1 the last train to Stoke from Piccadilly has to be after 21:30 (Mon-Sat), in TRS2 it has to be after 22:00. It seems although Northern are supposed to be running a service which complies with TRS2 they seem to have been allowed to keep to TRS1 on routes where factors outside their control have affected the service they can run.

 

[northwichcat]

First Sunday of an hourly service from Crewe-Manchester and we have...... Buses. Thanks to engineering work. Just as I had planned a reasonable trip into Manchester for the Cricket.

And the first Sunday where Altrincham was supposed to have an hourly service to Manchester it still has a 2 hourly service. (The Mid-Cheshire acts as a feeder in to Metrolink at Altrincham for both football and cricket at Old Trafford.)

 

[sprinterguy]

The ridiculously busy 1710 Deansgate to Stoke-on-Trent (all stations Stockport-Congleton then non-stop to Stoke) is being cut back to terminate at Macclesfield from Monday. I was on this yesterday; 26 alighted at MAC with 73 still on beyond, 68 of those alighted at Congleton.
Both the 1646 and 1746 are equally busy, ridiculous move.
That train after the change runs:
5K50 Longsight Car MD to Stockport P0 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22822/2018/05/21/advanced
2K50 0724 Stockport to Macclesfield P3 (0746 arrival) http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69814/2018/05/21/advanced
2M62 0749 Macclesfield to Manchester Piccadilly P12 (0830 arrival) http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22824/2018/05/21/advanced

Then it sits in P12 at Man Picc for over 8.5 hours and leaves on the

2K50 1721 Manchester Piccadilly to Macclesfield P3 (0753 arrival) http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69874/2018/05/21/advanced
5K50 Macclesfield to Stockport Car MD http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22826/2018/05/21/advanced

That does seem a thoroughly daft state of affairs, and 21:43 is disappointingly early for a last service as well.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

In TRS1 the last train to Stoke from Piccadilly has to be after 21:30 (Mon-Sat), in TRS2 it has to be after 22:00. It seems although Northern are supposed to be running a service which complies with TRS2 they seem to have been allowed to keep to TRS1 on routes where factors outside their control have affected the service they can run.

It says TSR December 2017 Must depart MAN no later than 2145

 

[agbrs_Jack]

That is shocking!

not the only commitment broken:

'(d) One additional service shall be provided from Manchester Piccadilly
such that between 1630 and 1800 a half hourly service is provided.
This additional service may omit to call at Kidsgrove.'

We have the following departures MAN-CNG in that period:
1644 MAN-SOT
1744 MAN-SOT
Doesn't look like half hourly...


And still only 5 tpd each way on Sundays....

 

[northwichcat]

It says TSR December 2017 Must depart MAN no later than 2145
...
not the only commitment broken:

'(d) One additional service shall be provided from Manchester Piccadilly
such that between 1630 and 1800 a half hourly service is provided.
This additional service may omit to call at Kidsgrove.'

We have the following departures MAN-CNG in that period:
1644 MAN-SOT
1744 MAN-SOT
Doesn't look like half hourly...

And still only 5 tpd each way on Sundays....

Like I said Northern seem to have been allowed to stick to TSR1 (the pre-December 2017) on routes where factors outside their control have prevented them from implementing the TSR2 (December 2017) requirements. Even Hazel Grove and Atherton, which are getting some of their TSR2 improvements, aren't getting their TSR2 improvements in full, while routes like Stoke and Mid-Cheshire aren't even getting that.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Like I said Northern seem to have been allowed to stick to TSR1 (the pre-December 2017) on routes where factors outside their control have prevented them from implementing the TSR2 (December 2017) requirements. Even Hazel Grove and Atherton, which are getting some of their TSR2 improvements, aren't getting their TSR2 improvements in full, while routes like Stoke and Mid-Cheshire aren't even getting that.

Yes but this being broken:
'(d) One additional service shall be provided from Manchester Piccadilly
such that between 1630 and 1800 a half hourly service is provided.
This additional service may omit to call at Kidsgrove.'

Is nothing to do with the delay to the Bolton electrification and would have happened regardless as it was supposed to be (and is to become) a BPN-MAC service.
(And is listed in the April 2016 Service Level Requirements therefore still broken.)

 

[agbrs_Jack]

In TRS1 the last train to Stoke from Piccadilly

Happy with Stoke-Congleton
It's Manchester-Congleton where the issue is, Manchester is the main destination from Congleton.

 

[northwichcat]

Happy with Stoke-Congleton
It's Manchester-Congleton where the issue is, Manchester is the main destination from Congleton.

The last train to Stoke from Piccadilly is the same as the last train home from Manchester if you live in Congleton and that is 'no earlier than 21:30' in TSR1 so the 21:45 Piccadilly-Stoke complies with the TSR1 requirement but not the TSR2 requirement, which requires the last train to be no earlier than 22:00. There are loads of examples for various routes where Northern's May 2018 timetables comply with TSR1 but not with TSR2.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

The last train to Stoke from Piccadilly i the same as the last train home from Manchester if you live in Congleton and that is 'no earlier than 21:30' in TSR1 so the 21:45 Piccadilly-Stoke complies with the TSR1 requirement but not the TSR2 requirement, which requires the last train to be no earlier than 22:00. There are loads of examples for various routes where Northern's May 2018 timetables comply with TSR1 but not with TSR2.

I've not seen a 2200 requirement anywhere, can see the 2130 for April 16-December 17 and 2145 after that. Both are way too early.

And the half hourly 1630-1800 is still broken. (And is a requirement April 2016 onwards)

 

[northwichcat]

I've not seen a 2200 requirement anywhere, can see the 2130 for April 16-December 17 and 2145 after that. Both are way too early.

And the half hourly 1630-1800 is still broken. (And is a requirement April 2016 onwards)

My mistake it's the last northbound service which has to be 22:00 or later in TSR2. However, I don't know where you have got 21:45 from, all I can see is a requirement for 3 Piccadilly departures between 19:00 and 21:59, so it looks like while Northern have got paths at 19:44, 20:44 and 21:43 so that actually meets the TSR2 requirement. The only specific requirement in addition to the table is the first Macclesfield to Stoke is no later than 06:15.

 

[Toby Atkinson]

Apologies if this has already been asked but how many class 158s are Barrow getting? Will they be running from Sunday?

 

[agbrs_Jack]

My mistake it's the last northbound service which has to be 22:00 or later in TSR2. However, I don't know where you have got 21:45 from, all I can see is a requirement for 3 Piccadilly departures between 19:00 and 21:59, so it looks like while Northern have got paths at 19:44, 20:44 and 21:43 so that actually meets the TSR2 requirement. The only specific requirement in addition to the table is the first Macclesfield to Stoke is no later than 06:15.

Here is a screenshot of the requirement I can see:

 

[Deerfold]

You've been told at least 3 times now that they can be made a few minutes before the train departs. If you're not happy with that and choose to use a different train then of course that is your right, but why come here to complain about that different train not going where you want? TransPennine trains all have dedicated cycle spaces. Most Northern trains do, but not all. Maybe you should make a new thread to discuss cycle reservations?

I'm just on a TPE train. They've made an announcement about the upcoming timetable changes. They've also said that from the same date, cycle reservations are compulsory and must be made 24 hours in advance.

 

[northernchris]

I'm just on a TPE train. They've made an announcement about the upcoming timetable changes. They've also said that from the same date, cycle reservations are compulsory and must be made 24 hours in advance.

I heard the announcement at Dewsbury station on Saturday regarding cycle reservations becoming mandatory. Noticed today on the Northern service I was on there were numerous cards placed throughout advertising the timetable changes along with Northern's email address for further details. Just a shame they are being quiet on train formations as there are no doubt a number of passengers who can amend their plans to a train a few minutes earlier/later if they know it will be less busy

 

[lyndhurst25]

I see that the Heysham boat train is no longer a through service from Leeds: replaced by a shuttle from Lancaster. Was it well used by IoM passengers between Leeds and Lancaster?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I see that the Heysham boat train is no longer a through service from Leeds: replaced by a shuttle from Lancaster. Was it well used by IoM passengers between Leeds and Lancaster?

I think this breaks a traditional service going back to Midland Railway days - except then, of course, trains ran via Lancaster Green Ayre. Even in the early 70s, via Carnforth (and, I think, the direct line Hest Bank to Bare Lane) this used to be 2 x three car DMUs, Metro-Camell units, IIRC. (sorry, don't know the modern class numbers). I suspect this latest move will cut the attraction of rail for the boat - but I have no idea how many use the current service.