Leeds City Stations Futuristic Look

[Waverley125]

they could use that to run tram-trains off the harrogate line into the city centre, woah, sorry, forgot it was Leeds. No lets dig up the whole Otley road because headingley needs more public transport services

wonder why supertram was rejected

because Alastair Darling's a **** and the projects in leeds, not london. Down saarf no project that had had £80m spent on would have been cancelled.

And £30bn for combined Thameslink & crossrail, but leeds can't get £400m for 25 miles of tram? ridiculous.

Though i agree with the Otley road point, it'd be far more sensible to serve headingley with trolleybuses running through to Clarence dock as there's no space on Otley Road to lane-separate trams/buses and cars.

 

[yorksrob]

I thought there was a comprehensive tram network in Leeds (until they decided to replace it with buses)?
I know my grandmother always used the trams to get round Leeds when she was young.

I agree that some cross-city journeys can be slow.

I sometimes need to travel from the Kirkstall area to Burley in wharfefedale or Ilkley (not exactly cross-city as both are on the same side of Leeds...) - it is necessary at present to travel into the centre of Leeds by bus (or train from headingley) & get the train back out - on the train you pass the area you started from about 50 minutes later!
I hope that the proposed Kirkstall Station isn't too long away from being built.

There used to be a station in Kirkstall on the Ilkley line between Guiseley and Leeds for which I think there may be a tentative plan to reopen. Also there used to be the direct route through Otley which linked Burley in Wharfdale to Headingley station (which is nearer to Kirkstall than Headingley) but needless to say it was axed in the sixties (thats progress for you!).

I'm not convinced about the tram-train plan which is, I think for the tram-trains to leave the line south of Burley Park then run through the city to the headrow, which I'm presuming might extend journey times a bit too much. IMO they should electrify the Harrogate line and use EMU's which are interchangeable with the Aire and Wharfe valley lines. They should also make the juice strong enough to take the inter-city trains which occasionally get to Harrogate (apologies if I've said this before but that was on old threads which I'd mistakenly resurrected).

With regard to the viaduct through Holbeck, I'm not aware of there being much obstructing the route other than the embankment carrying the ECML, so presumably this could be pierced with a bridge easily enough.

 

[j0hn0]

because Alastair Darling's a **** and the

Though i agree with the Otley road point, it'd be far more sensible to serve headingley with trolleybuses running through to Clarence dock as there's no space on Otley Road to lane-separate trams/buses and cars.

Even a trolley bus isn't the right option though (which they are now proposing) because they still have to drive in the traffic. It will take years of disruption to put the wires up, to get buses that serve the same routes as before.

Other tram schemes have been extended (Manchester). Why? because they use old railway lines and don't spend all their money on compensation for people whose road they dig up. Probably people on the council who own houses on Otley road

Cynic me?

 

[Bayum]

There used to be a station in Kirkstall on the Ilkley line between Guiseley and Leeds for which I think there may be a tentative plan to reopen. Also there used to be the direct route through Otley which linked Burley in Wharfdale to Headingley station (which is nearer to Kirkstall than Headingley) but needless to say it was axed in the sixties (thats progress for you!).

I'm not convinced about the tram-train plan which is, I think for the tram-trains to leave the line south of Burley Park then run through the city to the headrow, which I'm presuming might extend journey times a bit too much. IMO they should electrify the Harrogate line and use EMU's which are interchangeable with the Aire and Wharfe valley lines. They should also make the juice strong enough to take the inter-city trains which occasionally get to Harrogate (apologies if I've said this before but that was on old threads which I'd mistakenly resurrected).

With regard to the viaduct through Holbeck, I'm not aware of there being much obstructing the route other than the embankment carrying the ECML, so presumably this could be pierced with a bridge easily enough.

There is a daily morning service by NXEC which is HST operated, so the infrastructure doesn't need to be upgraded...

But I see your point if it was electrified... Although, the Forster Square trains are regularly 91's... It's just the Skipton line that can't handle it!

 

[43021HST]

People say these things but it never happens.

 

[yorksrob]

There is a daily morning service by NXEC which is HST operated, so the infrastructure doesn't need to be upgraded...

But I see your point if it was electrified... Although, the Forster Square trains are regularly 91's... It's just the Skipton line that can't handle it!

Ah yes, I've got a friend at work who commutes regularly into Leeds on that. I suppose that if most London trains into the Leeds/York area tend to be electric it makes it easier to extend more (and I've seen a few proposals to do this recently - though I'm not sure what'll become of these now that the EC franchise is up in the air).

Potentially you could even extend some of the Harrogate commuter trains to Bradford opening up a new commuter flow (I believe some of the diesels from Harrogate used to go to Bradford in the sixties - albeit Exchange rather than Forster Square so there may be the potential).

 

[Waverley125]

Leeds-Knaresborough out to be electrified, it's prime commuter territory, and right for smashing the market if the proper trains i.e. modern EMUs were used to lure commuters, instead of a 153 & 142 paired together.

The trolleybus will at least provide greater frequency of service on the route, and will remove polluting buses, as well as serving the student areas of leeds.

The viaduct that has been mentioned earlier, could, IMO, be used for trams to run southwest towards the White Rose Centre by raising the lines up from sweet street onto the viaduct and then Street running on Gelderd Road, then using the central reservation of ring road beeston.

 

[Mojo]

because Alastair Darling's a **** and the projects in leeds, not london. Down saarf no project that had had £80m spent on would have been cancelled.

And £30bn for combined Thameslink & crossrail, but leeds can't get £400m for 25 miles of tram? ridiculous.

The cost of Leeds Supertram had swelled to over £1bn; even myself as a huge fan of LRT would struggle to justify that.

And £80million? More like £40million in Leeds. West London Tram had £34.8million spent on it before it was cancelled in 2007.

 

[j0hn0]

Leeds-Knaresborough out to be electrified, it's prime commuter territory, and right for smashing the market if the proper trains i.e. modern EMUs were used to lure commuters, instead of a 153 & 142 paired together.

The trolleybus will at least provide greater frequency of service on the route, and will remove polluting buses, as well as serving the student areas of leeds.

The viaduct that has been mentioned earlier, could, IMO, be used for trams to run southwest towards the White Rose Centre by raising the lines up from sweet street onto the viaduct and then Street running on Gelderd Road, then using the central reservation of ring road beeston.

re: trolleybuses, is 1 bus every minute on Otley road not frequent enough for you?

I'm with you on the viaduct thing though. I often wondered why the supertram wasn't proposed to serve the busiest parts of the city *white rose, elland road*, rather than just the university and university hospital. Because thats all it did really.

Have a depot and park and ride on the Dewsbury road next to the White rose, elevate the section down the central reservation to the crematorium, then up and over the ECML and round behind elland road, under the motorway (dig the pedestrian tunnel deeper) then right at gelderd road, up onto the viaduct at the Aston garage, then off the viaduct at globe road to serve all new developments.

Then branch under the station to join a loop round the city centre with wellington street (central station viaduct, old harrogate line), Boar lane & York road (Guided busway)

Stations at Armley junction (farnell), increased stops on harrogate line, city island, wellington street.

Stations at park n ride, white rose, crematorium, elland road south, north, gelderd road, holbeck, globe road, bridgewater place, leeds station.

Sorry, lived there for a few years and thought that there were so many options to improve Leeds just by using their existing infrastructure, like other cities have. I'll shut up now

 

[yorksrob]

re: trolleybuses, is 1 bus every minute on Otley road not frequent enough for you?

I'm with you on the viaduct thing though. I often wondered why the supertram wasn't proposed to serve the busiest parts of the city *white rose, elland road*, rather than just the university and university hospital. Because thats all it did really.

Have a depot and park and ride on the Dewsbury road next to the White rose, elevate the section down the central reservation to the crematorium, then up and over the ECML and round behind elland road, under the motorway (dig the pedestrian tunnel deeper) then right at gelderd road, up onto the viaduct at the Aston garage, then off the viaduct at globe road to serve all new developments.

Then branch under the station to join a loop round the city centre with wellington street (central station viaduct, old harrogate line), Boar lane & York road (Guided busway)

Stations at Armley junction (farnell), increased stops on harrogate line, city island, wellington street.

Stations at park n ride, white rose, crematorium, elland road south, north, gelderd road, holbeck, globe road, bridgewater place, leeds station.

Sorry, lived there for a few years and thought that there were so many options to improve Leeds just by using their existing infrastructure, like other cities have. I'll shut up now

I'd agree with most of that, particularly regarding Elland Road (where I commute on the bus daily) and the guided busway on York Road (which is exactly the bit of Leeds lacking rail infrastructure at the moment). However, for the Harrogate line I'd still say electrified heavy commuter rail would be the way to go for my reasons above, as has been tried and tested on Airedale/Wharfedale. I think the plans for an extra stop between Headingley and Horsforth should go ahead either way.

 

[tbtc]

I'd agree with most of that, particularly regarding Elland Road

Interesting that people are saying they shouldn't have planned a tram to Headingley (as the Students are away over the summer months, so it's a bit quieter), but *should* go to Elland Road (which hosts around 20 football matches a season - roughly one a fortnight)...

for the Harrogate line I'd still say electrified heavy commuter rail would be the way to go

Agreed. I think the Harrogate line would really suit the 333s - given the demographics/ commuter traffic. There's a lot of people who wouldn't use a Pacer that would use a decent service.

Not sure the Knaresborough - York line would be as easy to justify for electrification in the short term. However, as there's little "through" traffic, you could probably get away with splitting the service into a "frequent" Leeds - Harrogate - Knaresborough EMU and an hourly Harrogate - Knaresborough - York DMU (with the potential to wire up the eastern section at a later date)

 

[j0hn0]

I see what you mean.

Then how about this.....

Keep it heavy rail and electrify it all the way to York and double track from Poppleton, but, run trams on it too, up to a spur to the airport.

Build a spur to the airport where tram-trains and heavy rail services will terminate. Separate the platforms at the airport to be heavy rail which stop at Leeds only and from other destinations (TPE, Northern) and light rail to stop at all existing stations and 1 or 2 more up until the airport (tram trains)

Heavy rail could follow their existing path into Leeds station, tram-trains could branch off just before Armley Junction and use the existing unused 2 track alignment alongside the heavy rail. Right up to Central Viaduct and along to city Island, wellington street and the city.

J0hn0 and yorksrob, working together to create a better Leeds!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting that people are saying they shouldn't have planned a tram to Headingley (as the Students are away over the summer months, so it's a bit quieter), but *should* go to Elland Road (which hosts around 20 football matches a season - roughly one a fortnight)...

Headingley has a comprehensive bus service on the route on which the tram was proposed to run and 2 railway stations (Headingley + Burley Park). Plus there is no room to build anything and will do nothing the help the already ridiculous traffic system in the area.

Serving the white rose via elland road would provide a massively useful service to the non students of the town and not make other traffic worse.

so tram train the Leeds section of the harrogate line and then headingley WILL be served by at least 4 stations, just none on their precious otley road :cry:

 

[monkey]

...leeds is ugly wiht a capital u. no amount of station remodelling or any other can make it look good...

 

[bluenoxid]

Electrify to Knotingley with a 20 minute frequency service, one DMU to York.

Leeds Bradford could be served by tram train but I don't think it's big enough to justify anything but a doubling in frequency of the 757. Otley might be a better destination for it or a 30 minute EMU service to Leeds

I don't think a tram is right for Leeds personally and the trolleybus looks a serious waste in more ways than one.

My main worry is that there are a number of transport corridors used by the train that are poorly served by train due to existing Intercity services and I believe that these need support through additional buses running parallel or freeing up existing capacity.

The wakefield line is relatively empty and only jammed up due to the spread of services along the route. A new bay at Westgate plus a flyover for the Sheffield services could increase capacity.

The York line is already halfhourly stoppers (with additional TPE for East Garforth) and it could be supplemented by a new station near to the Vickers site which could become the park and ride for the whole of East Leeds. Additional developments near to the A64 could give it a park and ride and then ULTRA connecting it to the Vickers station. Sustainable developments on the Vickers site could give the area a great ECO town as well.

 

[Spartacus]

Electrify to Knotingley with a 20 minute frequency service, one DMU to York.

As someone who deals with most of the coal passing through there I'd start to worry about my lights going out! The proposals for a 30 min service through Knottingley worry me enough!

 

[bluenoxid]

As someone who deals with most of the coal passing through there I'd start to worry about my lights going out! The proposals for a 30 min service through Knottingley worry me enough!

I can't believe I did that I meant Knaresborough

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, I can see both sides of the coin with regards to the tram up the Otley road. On the one hand it is narrow, so I can imagine the trams getting stuck behind the traffic and not being of much use short of slicing off gardens etc to make a dedicated route. I think historically some road widening schemes have progressed in this way although I suspect this would be quite expensive.

On the other, I know quite a few non student commuters also use this corridor, and from my personal experience, most of the places in Headingley I've lived in have been too far from the railway for it to have been my first option ahead of the Otley Road for getting into Leeds, tram or no tram. That said, the railway does serve a dense area of population itself so the idea of trams sharing the line and branching off to the airport could be a good one - although they'd have to solve the problem of tram-trains/trains using a different voltage first.

With regard to Knaresborough-York, whilst I know this wouldn't be the first choice for electrification in itself I think it would be justified as an integral part of Harrogate/Knaresborough services.

 

[bluenoxid]

I suppose you could say that King Lynn wouldn't have been first on the list to electrify but it integrates the service.

The problems isn't that major. You just need a measurement of the voltage and it switches the required kit over as a change in voltage is detected.

 

[Waverley125]

I'd say we ought to electrify Leeds-Harrogate-Knaresborough and run with 333s on a quarter-hourly schedule, while Harrogate-York would recieve an hourly shuttle using a 3 car 158. The proposed Horsforth Woodside station should also be opened.

Leeds-Dewsbury-Huddersfield I'd also want to wire, but use 323s in pairs to run the service, or displaced 321s from down saarf. Run half hourly (all stops), and build a new station at the white rose centre.

Armley Canal Rd, Kirkstall and Apperly bridge should all be brought back on the airedale line, as should Armley Moor and Low Moor on the Caldervale line, which should be electrified through to Halifax, with a half hourly 'all stops' service, and an hourly 'limited stop' service to Preston & Manchester Victoria (along with the express York-Blackpool service)

I'd also like to see a station reopened to serve Hunslet on the Pontefract/Hallam line-located next to the Wakefield road overbridge, and electrification extended through to Castleford and Goole (this would require double tracking Knottingley-Goole). This could then be run with EMUs, with a half-hourly service to Knottingley, with an hourly extension to Goole. There would also be an hourly Goole-Wakefield Westgate shuttle, calling all stations.

My preference for dealing with the city centre would be to use the trolleybus option to connect Clarence dock to the ring road at Bodington. This would be a far-more cost effective way to serve Headingley, would take buses from the numbers 1 and 96 to be deployed elsewhere in the city and could use the same OHL as the trams.

The tramline to the white rose centre would leave Vicar lane and head down Neville Street (which would be closed to traffic), having an interchange with city station under the bridge. The line would head down Sweet street before climbing to meet Holbeck viaduct, which it would use to reach Gelderd Road. The trams would then street run out to the ring road, where they would cut across the traffic using traffic lights, and running down the central reservation before burrowing under the carpark to a subterranean loop terminus.

I'd also have a line going West through Armley, Stanningley and Pudsey, where a new interchange would be built at New Pudsey. These could then continue using a combination of on-street and new rural tramway to Bradford, street running into the city centre.

The outher southern line would follow the path of the WRC line, but would head southeast, using the central reservation of Hunslet Road to head southeast to a Park & ride facility by the M1

 

[j0hn0]

the reason there arent more stopping services between leeds and huddersfield is because of the TPE services. If there is to be an increase, you would need to build loops at Batley and at your proposed station for the white rose in order to keep "express" trains running unhindered.

And no matter how you dress them up, trolley buses are just expensive buses which will have to use the traffic, which is no solution at all. Lots of buses in Leeds run on gas anyway so the"green" credentials dont sway the argument either.

And Armley stanningley and pudsey for a tram? what you mean those places already served by railways that just need their old stations reopened? Armley could actually have 2 stations as it did back in the day.

 

[Bayum]

I was thinking that the other day if i'm honest about the Huddersfield line. Many stations do need bypasses so that faster trains can pass - A broken down train at Mirfield cause huge delays for northbound fTPE services on Sunday, and I thought what is there was a bypass like they have on the Wakefield line for the 321's that are sometimes passed by late running NXEC and XC Services

 

[yorksrob]

Wakefield and the five towns always seem to get the mucky end of the stick so it's high time we got some improvements. For starters first and last trains should be at a decent time and an hourly Sunday service might help to bring them into the 21st century. I'll be interested to see how many of these new carriages we'll get, particularly since our controlled fares will be rising along with the rest of W Yorks.

 

[Bayum]

I'm sure it was reported a while ago, that we WOULDN'T be getting said stock in Leeds.... And that Northern could raise ticket prices above inflation to fund for new stock and carriages... Unless I got that totally wrong.

 

[yorksrob]

I could be wrong, but as I understand it, Northern are only allowed to raise the fares in the West Yorks area so I'd hope that the new carriages will turn up in Leeds eventually.

 

[bluenoxid]

The new trains are the extra 158's. No new trains have been bought for Leeds.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, I commute on a Pacer every day so the 158's are as good as, if not better than new trains as far as I'm concerned. Bring them on. I hope some of them end up on the Hallam stoppers.

 

[D841]

Well, I commute on a Pacer every day so the 158's are as good as, if not better than new trains as far as I'm concerned. Bring them on. I hope some of them end up on the Hallam stoppers.

I've had an occasional 158 on Hallam Line stoppers before now. The semi-fasts are operated by them pretty well exclusively, too.

 

[yorksrob]

I've had an occasional 158 on Hallam Line stoppers before now. The semi-fasts are operated by them pretty well exclusively, too.

Indeed, I often find when I'm waiting at Leeds, the semi-fast and the stopper to sheffield are waiting in platforms 16 and 17 formed of a 158 and Pacer respectively. I live at Normanton so sometimes when I miss the stopper train I get the fast to Wakefield Kirkgate then get the bus and I can honestly say that the stopping Pacer is always a lot more crowded than the semi-fast 158.

Infact, I'd hesitate to describe any train on this line as semi-fast as in most hours you get 1 train calling all stations, and 2 trains going fast to Wakefield, Barnsley, Meadowhall and Sheffield, with one of these being extended to Nottingham. Now, I would fully agree with one of these fast trains being turned into a semi-fast and calling at perhaps Normanton and Chapeltown additionally although as far as "the powers that be" are concerned, this line exists only to serve Barnsley.

 

[D841]

Indeed, I often find when I'm waiting at Leeds, the semi-fast and the stopper to sheffield are waiting in platforms 16 and 17 formed of a 158 and Pacer respectively. I live at Normanton so sometimes when I miss the stopper train I get the fast to Wakefield Kirkgate then get the bus and I can honestly say that the stopping Pacer is always a lot more crowded than the semi-fast 158.

Infact, I'd hesitate to describe any train on this line as semi-fast as in most hours you get 1 train calling all stations, and 2 trains going fast to Wakefield, Barnsley, Meadowhall and Sheffield, with one of these being extended to Nottingham. Now, I would fully agree with one of these fast trains being turned into a semi-fast and calling at perhaps Normanton and Chapeltown additionally although as far as "the powers that be" are concerned, this line exists only to serve Barnsley.

I refer to the Nottingham services as semi-fast because they have the four intermediate stops between Leeds and Sheffield, and serve other intermediate stations between Sheffield and Nottingham. They certainly don't fit my idea of an express service, sorry.

I was on a semi-fast a couple of evenings ago which did call at Normanton. I've never understood why they don't call at Chapeltown, though, given the massive amount of new housing which has been built over the last couple of decades within easy reach of the station, and the proximity of the M1. In fact, the path for the Nottingham service was created by withdrawing the Sheffield - Wakefield Kirkgate terminating stoppers, which gave Chapeltown three trains an hour to and from both Sheffield and Barnsley. The service is now down to two trains (and Elsecar only has one, most hours).

 

[yorksrob]

I refer to the Nottingham services as semi-fast because they have the four intermediate stops between Leeds and Sheffield, and serve other intermediate stations between Sheffield and Nottingham. They certainly don't fit my idea of an express service, sorry.

I was on a semi-fast a couple of evenings ago which did call at Normanton. I've never understood why they don't call at Chapeltown, though, given the massive amount of new housing which has been built over the last couple of decades within easy reach of the station, and the proximity of the M1. In fact, the path for the Nottingham service was created by withdrawing the Sheffield - Wakefield Kirkgate terminating stoppers, which gave Chapeltown three trains an hour to and from both Sheffield and Barnsley. The service is now down to two trains (and Elsecar only has one, most hours).

Maybe not inter-city but certainly express IMO. I've seen the destination blind on the 158's showing "Leeds Express" so presumably Northern agree with me. Unfortunately Normanton only gets two rush hour expresses stopping in the morning and one in the evening so it's one an hour for us (taking the slow meander through Cass) most of the day.