EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[AlterEgo]

Well if you arrive back here from the EU you go through the EU channel where you aren't subject to searches...so not sure what your point is??

You can be subject to searches in the EU channel. It has happened to me a couple of times.

 

[Howardh]

Like this, you mean?

(Image of UK customs check at Strabane in 1968).

I can see all the paramilitary groups volunteering their time to help rebuild the infrastructure....

 

[cactustwirly]

Well if you arrive back here from the EU you go through the EU channel where you aren't subject to searches...so not sure what your point is??

Yes.
If you're flying from the UK to the USA, you have to pass through a customs check on arrival in the USA

 

[Howardh]

You can be subject to searches in the EU channel. It has happened to me a couple of times.

Yes, it can happen if they have good reason (or a very efficient dog) but if you are carrying a shed-load of booze or any other EU duty-paid stuff and it's for yourself (ie not for sale) there's nothing they can do to stop you.

 

[Howardh]

Yes.
If you're flying from the UK to the USA, you have to pass through a customs check on arrival in the USA

Fortunately the US isn't in the EU!!

 

[mmh]

Well if you arrive back here from the EU you go through the EU channel where you aren't subject to searches...so not sure what your point is??

You're subject to searches in any of the channels. Of course after leaving the EU there wouldn't be an EU channel when you arrive in the UK anyway.

 

[AlterEgo]

Like this, you mean?

(Image of UK customs check at Strabane in 1968).

(only quoting you for context and not correcting or disputing anything)

I am sure I have said it before but he last thing people need in Ireland is physical customs posts.

Before what we now call "the Troubles" was the IRA Border Campaign. It was an utterly pointless exercise, but essentially was easy pickings of rural border targets for a raggedy and poorly-equipped old boys network, the IRA.

Nearly all customs points will be in rural areas and mounting an attack on one is very, very easy. It was in the late 1950s and would be today. It is much better not to give these people obvious targets to shoot up or bomb.

 

[Howardh]

You're subject to searches in any of the channels. Of course after leaving the EU there wouldn't be an EU channel when you arrive in the UK anyway.

Yes, another Brexit Plus, more delays, searches and restrictions.

Unless, of course, you are crossing the Irish Border...........

 

[EM2]

(only quoting you for context and not correcting or disputing anything)

I am sure I have said it before but he last thing people need in Ireland is physical customs posts.

Exactly. But mmh seems to think that everyone was able to stroll across the border without a care in the world pre-EU, and that is clearly not the case.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes.
If you're flying from the UK to the USA, you have to pass through a customs check on arrival in the USA

When the changes at Manchester Airport are completed you'll be able to pre-clear customs for the USA before boarding the plane.

 

[mmh]

Exactly. But mmh seems to think that everyone was able to stroll across the border without a care in the world pre-EU, and that is clearly not the case.

Err, they were able to, other than for security related checking during the troubles, which noone wants to bring back. I think people are confusing goods and people here. They're two separate and different things. Yes, people could enter the UK without a passport and without any checks this way, they still can. It's why you don't need a passport to travel between Ireland and the UK, including by air.

So (again), exactly the same as now and nothing to do with being members of the EU.

 

[furnessvale]

So you are alright with uncontrollable immigration?
Such a border would be a massive loophole for immigration from across the EU.
The UK would be unable to collect import/export duty on shipments across this border.

1. Surely the UK outside the EU will be such a deeply unattractive place to live that we won't have an immigration problem?
2. The inability to collect duties is a much larger problem for the protectionist EU than for the free trade minded UK.

 

[Howardh]

Err, they were able to, other than for security related checking during the troubles, which noone wants to bring back. I think people are confusing goods and people here. They're two separate and different things. Yes, people could enter the UK without a passport and without any checks this way, they still can. It's why you don't need a passport to travel between Ireland and the UK, including by air.

So (again), exactly the same as now and nothing to do with being members of the EU.

So how does that square with the beloved "control of borders" then? Either you want control - of them all - or they are left as they are today. There's no middle ground.

 

[Domh245]

I am sure I have said it before but the last thing people need in Ireland is physical customs posts.

Unfortunately the prevailing view of the EU is that all of the Governments solutions so far, particularly the 'smart border' featuring CCTV (as demonstrated by the congestion charge) are unworkable, so there may not be much of a choice (unless the Government decide to remain in, but I suspect there is little chance of that happening)

 

[AlterEgo]

Unfortunately the prevailing view of the EU is that all of the Governments solutions so far, particularly the 'smart border' featuring CCTV (as demonstrated by the congestion charge) are unworkable, so there may not be much of a choice (unless the Government decide to remain in, but I suspect there is little chance of that happening)

Given that almost nobody in Ireland actually wants the customs posts, I rather expect the Government will fudge some rubbish technological solution that won't be particularly good, just to satisfy some Leavers.

 

[furnessvale]

Fortunately the US isn't in the EU!!

Surely you've got that wrong! After all, the USA is our biggest single country trading partner.

 

[cactustwirly]

Err, they were able to, other than for security related checking during the troubles, which noone wants to bring back. I think people are confusing goods and people here. They're two separate and different things. Yes, people could enter the UK without a passport and without any checks this way, they still can. It's why you don't need a passport to travel between Ireland and the UK, including by air.

So (again), exactly the same as now and nothing to do with being members of the EU.

The world has moved on since the 1950s, Ireland is now a member of the EU.
Which means that a border is needed, unless you want any EU citizen travelling to the UK via Ireland unrestricted.

 

[Domh245]

Given that almost nobody in Ireland actually wants the customs posts, I rather expect the Government will fudge some rubbish technological solution that won't be particularly good, just to satisfy some Leavers.

Fudging rubbish technical solutions seems to have been what they were doing before 'Customs Partnership' & 'Max Fac', although even then both of those are highly dependent on technological solutions which seem to be entirely within the heads of ministers at the moment with no actual examples anywhere in the world. Understandably the EU is hesitant to accept them as a solution, and they've got to OK the proposal of course, so my confidence in some sort of fudge being accepted is low. It'd be quite entertaining to watch, if it wasn't happening to us.

 

[cactustwirly]

Surely you've got that wrong! After all, the USA is our biggest single country trading partner.

Let's hope it doesn't stay that way post Brexit!
I don't fancy their chlorinated chickens or GM food products.
It would also mean the privatisation of the NHS, as I'd imagine a 'free trade deal' will have strings attached, particularly with the US private health companies.

 

[EM2]

Err, they were able to, other than for security related checking during the troubles, which noone wants to bring back.

Well they quite clearly weren't able to, hence the big STOP sign and the driver being approached by the customs officer.
And just in case anyone thinks I stumbled across that one image, here's a few others:

(Various images showing Northern Ireland border posts at various times before the present day)
Note how many of these images are clearly from a time before the Troubles, and also note the lady on the bicycle being stopped.

 

[Domh245]

Surely you've got that wrong! After all, the USA is our biggest single country trading partner.

Source? Wikipedia, who are ranking it on total trade (with data from 2015) says it is non-EU (total) in first place, followed by EU (total), Germany, and then the US. The first list I could find that puts the US top is one that ranks them based on exports only

 

[furnessvale]

Source? Wikipedia, who are ranking it on total trade (with data from 2015) says it is non-EU (total) in first place, followed by EU (total), Germany, and then the US. The first list I could find that puts the US top is one that ranks them based on exports only

Hence my careful wording!

 

[mmh]

The world has moved on since the 1950s, Ireland is now a member of the EU.
Which means that a border is needed, unless you want any EU citizen travelling to the UK via Ireland unrestricted.

No different to the current situation. There's nothing to stop a non-EU citizen without the EU freedom of movement right to enter the UK via Ireland unchecked. What will be different is those EU citizens will no longer have that right, so they would be here illegally not legally.

 

[mmh]

So how does that square with the beloved "control of borders" then? Either you want control - of them all - or they are left as they are today. There's no middle ground.

It's control - we've decided (many many years ago) that we want an open border with Ireland. Our choice. (Our obligation, arguably). If we decided we didn't want it, it would go and it would be none of the EU's business.

 

[mmh]

Well they quite clearly weren't able to, hence the big STOP sign and the driver being approached by the customs officer.
And just in case anyone thinks I stumbled across that one image, here's a few others:

(Various images showing Northern Ireland border posts at various times before the present day)

Note how many of these images are clearly from a time before the Troubles, and also note the lady on the bicycle being stopped.

Sigh. These are customs not immigration checks. Flights from Ireland to the UK arrive at domestic gates and there are no immigration / passport checks. It is, and was, an open border.

 

[Howardh]

No different to the current situation. There's nothing to stop a non-EU citizen without the EU freedom of movement right to enter the UK via Ireland unchecked. What will be different is those EU citizens will no longer have that right, so they would be here illegally not legally.

How could you tell if an EU who has crossed the border is illegal or not?

 

[mmh]

How could you tell if an EU who has crossed the border is illegal or not?

How could you tell if a non-EU who currently crosses is or not? You can't, it's an open border!

 

[Domh245]

Hence my careful wording!

You'd have been better wording it as "largest single importer of British goods" - trade is a two way thing, and Germany beats the US in the totals by £11bn. Using the Wikipedia data:

Germany
Imports: £60,859,846,783
Exports: £30,381,714,408
Total: £91,241,561,191 (-£30,478,132,375)

USA
Imports: £35,290,616,559
Exports: £45,277,510,216
Total: £80,568,126,775 (£9,986,893,657)

 

[EM2]

Sigh. These are customs not immigration checks. Flights from Ireland to the UK arrive at domestic gates and there are no immigration / passport checks. It is, and was, an open border.

A border controls both.

 

[Howardh]

How could you tell if a non-EU who currently crosses is or not? You can't, it's an open border!

Exactly!
Which is eventually coming to my point of view - if we ARE leaving the EU there is still no need to have any border infrastructure anywhere between us and the EU (Ireland/Heathrow/Dover etc); we just have a free-flow policy of goods and people with no requirement for passports or customs checks. Anyone wnating to work or reside here for any length of time would require a permit and that would be checked by (unpaid = cheap) managers and landlords. It could be a virtual Schengen - there are countries that are inside Schengen but outside the EU.
So we leave the EU, have some restriction on freedom of movement (jobs etc) but solve the Irish problem, keep the free-flow of goods etc.
Isn't the EEA a nice place to be if we can't be in the EU?