EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[northwichcat]

So I'd argue it's not Brexit after all then.

Are you sure? Germany sells a lot of cars and motor parts to the UK.

 

[furnessvale]

I don't know what mmh would do about the Irish border but I would simply tell the EU that the UK has no intention of setting up a hard border. If the EU want one, that is entirely up to them.

 

[EM2]

Deleted - edited post below.

 

[EM2]

I don't know what mmh would do about the Irish border but I would simply tell the EU that the UK has no intention of setting up a hard border. If the EU want one, that is entirely up to them.

Does the UK intend to set up a hard border with France, Belgium, Spain, or the Netherlands? If not, why would the EU accept one member country being treated differently to the others?

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't know what mmh would do about the Irish border but I would simply tell the EU that the UK has no intention of setting up a hard border. If the EU want one, that is entirely up to them.

But that isn't how it works is it?
If we leave the customs union, we would have to stop & search every truck, to make sure all the VAT & import tariffs were paid, and that all the goods complied with UK law.

This doesn't just apply to the Irish border, but every port in the UK too.
Which would mean turning the M20 into a permant lorry park, since Dover would not be able to cope with the extended wait times.

 

[mmh]

I don't know what mmh would do about the Irish border but I would simply tell the EU that the UK has no intention of setting up a hard border. If the EU want one, that is entirely up to them.

Exactly. An "independent" UK is free to operate its borders whichever way it wants to. It's the EU which is being difficult, and it's more for Ireland to decide what it wants to do than the UK. We'll happily continue with free movement of people from Ireland and no border controls. It's not up to us what happens in the opposite direction.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes Len McCluskey has, saying Vauxhall needed the same post-Brexit government backing that was given in the North East.

Len McCluskey probably also thinks the guards causing the havoc in Northern-land you continuously moan about are doing the right thing - based on exactly the same principles.

Funny how you quote him completely uncritically here, solely because on this occasion he backs up what you’re claiming.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know what mmh would do about the Irish border but I would simply tell the EU that the UK has no intention of setting up a hard border. If the EU want one, that is entirely up to them.

The EU have strict requirements for their borders with non-EU countries (try travelling between Croatia and some of it's neighbouring non-EU countries if you want to see them in action.) It's really a case of do we want to, as a minimum, implement all the checks the EU want at our own borders despite not being a member of the EU or do we intend to not implement some of the checks the EU requires? After all the leave camp were calling for tougher borders so they surely want to do more than what the EU requires, not less than what the EU requires.

 

[Howardh]

I don't know what mmh would do about the Irish border but I would simply tell the EU that the UK has no intention of setting up a hard border. If the EU want one, that is entirely up to them.

It's an answer, so if there was a hard border what do you suggest we do about the virtual Irish exclave which is inside the UK and is our problem??

 

[mmh]

Does the UK intend to set up a hard border with France, Belgium, Spain, or the Netherlands? If not, why would the EU accept one member country being treated differently to the others?

There would be nothing for the EU to "accept", we wouldn't be an EU member. We've treated Ireland differently to every other country for the best part of a century, unsurprisingly there's a lot of history in UK/Ireland relations and they've nothing to do with the EU.

 

[cactustwirly]

There would be nothing for the EU to "accept", we wouldn't be an EU member. .

Yes there is, it's the EU's border afterall

 

[Howardh]

Exactly. An "independent" UK is free to operate its borders whichever way it wants to. It's the EU which is being difficult, and it's more for Ireland to decide what it wants to do than the UK. We'll happily continue with free movement of people from Ireland and no border controls. It's not up to us what happens in the opposite direction.

You can't have "control of borders" and one that's wide open for any EU and even non-EU if they are entitled to be in Ireland to cross at will. Therefore to maintain "control" and for the Eu to maintain it's border integrity, then a hard border has to be constructed. How much would that cost to build, man and secure?
And what would you do about the Irish exclave?

 

[northwichcat]

There would be nothing for the EU to "accept", we wouldn't be an EU member. We've treated Ireland differently to every other country for the best part of a century, unsurprisingly there's a lot of history in UK/Ireland relations and they've nothing to do with the EU.

Do we want to make things easy or hard for ourselves? When travelling between England and France we could have one set of passport checks and luggage scans, as is the case now or we could do our own thing and let France do their own thing meaning instead of being able to do all the checks before boarding a Eurostar train to Paris, you'll be subjected to similar checks both before you board a train and after you alight one.

 

[furnessvale]

The EU have strict requirements for their borders with non-EU countries (try travelling between Croatia and some of it's neighbouring non-EU countries if you want to see them in action.) It's really a case of do we want to, as a minimum, implement all the checks the EU want at our own borders despite not being a member of the EU or do we intend to not implement some of the checks the EU requires? After all the leave camp were calling for tougher borders so they surely want to do more than what the EU requires, not less than what the EU requires.

As I said, the EU can impose whatever sort of border it wants. As a protectionist organisation I am sure it will want to. As for the UK, we will carry on with a border with Eire as we had years before the EU was even a twinkle in Juncker's eye. The people of Ireland, north and south, will quickly realise just who is stopping them at the border.

 

[mmh]

The EU have strict requirements for their borders with non-EU countries (try travelling between Croatia and some of it's neighbouring non-EU countries if you want to see them in action.) It's really a case of do we want to, as a minimum, implement all the checks the EU want at our own borders despite not being a member of the EU or do we intend to not implement some of the checks the EU requires? After all the leave camp were calling for tougher borders so they surely want to do more than what the EU requires, not less than what the EU requires.

No, we don't care about the EU's eastern border (the effectiveness of how "hard" that is was brought up as an issue more than once in the run up to the referendum). Neither the UK or Ireland are in Schengen so as long as we keep the Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK it'll carry on working exactly as it has for 100 years.

Not everything has to do with the EU, despite what its supporters seem to think.

 

[Howardh]

As I said, the EU can impose whatever sort of border it wants. As a protectionist organisation I am sure it will want to. As for the UK, we will carry on with a border with Eire as we had years before the EU was even a twinkle in Juncker's eye. The people of Ireland, north and south, will quickly realise just who is stopping them at the border.

And what do you do about the exclave?

 

[cactustwirly]

No, we don't care about the EU's eastern border (the effectiveness of how "hard" that is was brought up as an issue more than once in the run up to the referendum). Neither the UK or Ireland are in Schengen so as long as we keep the Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK it'll carry on working exactly as it has for 100 years.

Not everything has to do with the EU, despite what its supporters seem to think.

So you are alright with uncontrollable immigration?
Such a border would be a massive loophole for immigration from across the EU.
The UK would be unable to collect import/export duty on shipments across this border.

 

[northwichcat]

Len McCluskey probably also thinks the guards causing the havoc in Northern-land you continuously moan about are doing the right thing - based on exactly the same principles.

Funny how you quote him completely uncritically here, solely because on this occasion he backs up what you’re claiming.

Unite have members who've lost their jobs, the RMT have members at Northern striking over jobs despite an assurance their jobs are safe until at least 2025. Like most people I have more sympathy for those who have lost their jobs, or who have had pay freezes for a number of years than ones who have an assurance their jobs are safe for the medium term and have had pay rises at or above the rate of inflation every year.

 

[Howardh]

No, we don't care about the EU's eastern border (the effectiveness of how "hard" that is was brought up as an issue more than once in the run up to the referendum). Neither the UK or Ireland are in Schengen so as long as we keep the Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK it'll carry on working exactly as it has for 100 years.

Not everything has to do with the EU, despite what its supporters seem to think.

You do realise the madness that the UK will allow anyone from the EU into the UK via that open border whilst all the other ports and airports will be checking immigrants thoroughly? Have you actually thought that through? All EU's will be legally allowed to enter Ireland under FoM and can then walk, bus, train etc into the UK unchecked.
So that might as well happen at ALL our borders and save a lot of pointless hassle.

 

[mmh]

Do we want to make things easy or hard for ourselves? When travelling between England and France we could have one set of passport checks and luggage scans, as is the case now or we could do our own thing and let France do their own thing meaning instead of being able to do all the checks before boarding a Eurostar train to Paris, you'll be subjected to similar checks both before you board a train and after you alight one.

What? How do you think travel between countries not in the EU currently works? You will not have luggage scans at both ends.

 

[northwichcat]

As I said, the EU can impose whatever sort of border it wants. As a protectionist organisation I am sure it will want to. As for the UK, we will carry on with a border with Eire as we had years before the EU was even a twinkle in Juncker's eye. The people of Ireland, north and south, will quickly realise just who is stopping them at the border.

So are you saying if the Republic of Ireland joined the Schengen area that'd be their decision and we'd still want a soft border, despite the fact it would let anyone in the EU walk in the United Kingdom via the back door without even showing their passport?

 

[Howardh]

What? How do you think travel between countries not in the EU currently works? You will not have luggage scans at both ends.

Think the "luggage scans" are referring to goods/customs rather than security?

 

[Howardh]

So are you saying if the Republic of Ireland joined the Schengen area that'd be their decision and we'd still want a soft border, despite the fact it would let anyone in the EU walk in the United Kingdom via the back door without even showing their passport?

If the CTA continued that would mean, in effect, the RoI couldn't join the Schengen zone should they wish. If they did then the border would have to be as hard as nails.

 

[mmh]

Think the "luggage scans" are referring to goods/customs rather than security?

Eurostar was the example used, so passenger luggage.

 

[Howardh]

Eurostar was the example used, so passenger luggage.

...which will need to be inspected by customs. Wonder if it will be before you travel or on arrival?

 

[AlterEgo]

Unite have members who've lost their jobs, the RMT have members at Northern striking over jobs despite an assurance their jobs are safe until at least 2025. Like most people I have more sympathy for those who have lost their jobs, or who have had pay freezes for a number of years than ones who have an assurance their jobs are safe for the medium term and have had pay rises at or above the rate of inflation every year.

It's nonsense to quote him when he supports your viewpoint with no acknowledgement of what might motivate him to make that statement. I am sure you would be more rigorous had he been talking about the Northern dispute.

Len McCluskey is a union leader. Of course he is going to say that the workers he represents would have benefited had the company had a similar deal to the Nissan one. But we don't actually know whether that's a fact.

 

[mmh]

...which will need to be inspected by customs. Wonder if it will be before you travel or on arrival?

Why would it not be the same as at every other port you can arrive at from the UK in the world? i.e. No, passenger luggage does not need to be inspected by customs, it may be.

 

[EM2]

As for the UK, we will carry on with a border with Eire as we had years before the EU was even a twinkle in Juncker's eye.

Like this, you mean?

(Image of UK customs check at Strabane in 1968).

 

[Howardh]

Why would it not be the same as at every other port you can arrive at from the UK in the world?

Well if you arrive back here from the EU you go through the EU channel where you aren't subject to searches...so not sure what your point is??

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't know what mmh would do about the Irish border but I would simply tell the EU that the UK has no intention of setting up a hard border. If the EU want one, that is entirely up to them.

It isn't entirely up to them though. The lack of a hard border will essentially mean de facto unregulated freedom of movement between the EU and the UK.