Northern's Problems in the North West

[aylesbury]

If there is a shortage of crews are Northern recruiting to sort out the problem?

 

[Greybeard33]

14:59 Chester to Manchester cancelled today. I feel sorry for the guard who gets the 15:59, especially if the 15:59 isn't formed of 4 carriages as it will almost certainly leave passengers behind if it's a 2 car 142!

The 15:59 Chester to Piccadilly was a 2-car 142, but it was only full and standing, rather than crush loaded, by the time it got to Hale. The guard had trouble persuading the people wedged in the vestibules to move down the aisles to let the waiting passengers board.

The service lost 2 minutes at each of Greenbank, Northwich, Knutsford and Hale, and was 13 late at Navigation Road, after missing its path through the single line.

 

[northwichcat]

The 15:59 Chester to Piccadilly waa 2-car 142, but it was only full and standing, rather than crush loaded, by the time it got to Hale. The guard had trouble persuading the people wedged in the vestibules to move down the aisles to let the waiting passengers board.

The service lost 2 minutes at each of Greenbank, Northwich, Knutsford and Hale, and was 13 late at Navigation Road, after missing its path through the single line.

These days the 14:59 seems to carry a lot more St Nicholas pupils from Greenbank than Knutsford Academy pupils. I've boarded the 14:59 a couple of times at Northwich when it's been a 4 car 150 and there haven't been that many spare seats, while there seemed to be a significant number of empty seats leaving Knutsford. It's the time of the year when year 11 and 13 pupils will be on study leave so that will help reduce loadings a bit, except when there's an exam which all/most pupils are taking.

 

[route101]

Used the 1459 and it was a 4 car 150 but the back 2 cars only became available for the school pupils at a certain point /

 

[northwichcat]

Used the 1459 and it was a 4 car 150 but the back 2 cars only became available for the school pupils at a certain point /

Before the council withdrew the subsidy for the school buses from St Nicholas to the Knutsford area the rear unit stayed locked out-of-use until Northwich (or occasionally Greenbank) but if it's 2 x 150s I don't think there's any reason for the rear unit to be locked out-of-use. If a Lime Street driver hasn't been to Chester to do a unit swap then the rear unit can finish up being a 156 instead of a 150 and I think that's happened a few times recently due to driver shortages.

 

[route101]

Before the council withdrew the subsidy for the school buses from St Nicholas to the Knutsford area the rear unit stayed locked out-of-use until Northwich (or occasionally Greenbank) but if it's 2 x 150s I don't think there's any reason for the rear unit to be locked out-of-use. If a Lime Street driver hasn't been to Chester to do a unit swap then the rear unit can finish up being a 156 instead of a 150 and I think that's happened a few times recently due to driver shortages.

Used the service in March , noticed when all the school pupils got on and off.

 

[Red Devil]

I'm waiting the moment the 6 car 185 morning peak service is replaced by a 142 along the CLC.
Because it will come,trust me!

 

[muz379]

Not necessarily. People's circumstances can change at the drop of a hat, as I'm sure you're aware. And once somebody says they're retiring, you can't advertise for a replacement, get them trained and passed out in the time before the retiring driver goes. You could argue people's age is a good indicator of when they'll retire, but not accurately enough to tailor training around.

And as I said earlier a newly passed out driver with 2 routes on their card is not a proper replacement for a man with 20 years who had a full route card who is retiring or moving .

People are still leaving for freight?!?

There have been a few recently . Its only usually a few from any one particular depot , but if its added to the few that leave for other passenger operators , the few that retire or get promoted / go to a different role in the company and the few that get medically restricted then it can soon start to have an impact .

Does nobody ever join from freight, or other TOCs ?

At my depot in the last 2-3 years I have known of 2 qualified drivers join with experience from other TOC's . In both cases they had relocated from a different part of the country and in one case the driver in question has already applied for jobs at other higher paying TOC's in the region . Ive not known of anyone join from freight at my depot .

Northern are set to put 2 car 142s on some services currently worked by 4 car Sprinters, especially on Saturdays and at afternoon school finishing times.

Ive heard that reduction in formations is going to occur on a lot of lines with a lot of services previously worked by multiple units being formed of single ones .

I'm waiting the moment the 6 car 185 morning peak service is replaced by a 142 along the CLC.
Because it will come,trust me!

Probably compounded by the fact that the one before was cancelled or short formed . I think a lot of train crew are dreading this timetable change .

 

[Red Devil]

And as I said earlier a newly passed out driver with 2 routes on their card is not a proper replacement for a man with 20 years who had a full route card who is retiring or moving .


There have been a few recently . Its only usually a few from any one particular depot , but if its added to the few that leave for other passenger operators , the few that retire or get promoted / go to a different role in the company and the few that get medically restricted then it can soon start to have an impact .


At my depot in the last 2-3 years I have known of 2 qualified drivers join with experience from other TOC's . In both cases they had relocated from a different part of the country and in one case the driver in question has already applied for jobs at other higher paying TOC's in the region . Ive not known of anyone join from freight at my depot .


Ive heard that reduction in formations is going to occur on a lot of lines with a lot of services previously worked by multiple units being formed of single ones .


Probably compounded by the fact that the one before was cancelled or short formed . I think a lot of train crew are dreading this timetable change .

Aye, as are the commuters, no doubt

 

[B&I]

I can understand services not running at all if there aren't enough drivers (even if the reason for that is Northern's ludicrous attitude to staffing). However, what possible justification can there be for reducing the number of cars available on the services that do run ?

 

[northwichcat]

I can understand services bot running at all if there aren't enough drivers (even if the reason for that is Northern's ludicrous attitude to staffing). However, what possible justification can there be for reducing the number of cars available on the services that do run ?

Poor planning, especially on lines which have had their enhancements postponed.

For example, the existing departures might be
16:45 2 car
17:45 4 car

The plan for May 2018 might have been
16:30 2 car
17:00 2 car
17:30 2 car
18:00 2 car

But due to the shortfall of cascaded carriages passengers instead end up with
16:30 2 car
17:30 2 car

Then on investigation it turns out the missing 2 car DMU is needed elsewhere so it can run an additional counter-peak service on a route which is getting its' enhancements!

 

[Red Devil]

Poor planning, especially on lines which have had their enhancements postponed.

For example, the existing departures might be
16:45 2 car
17:45 4 car

The plan for May 2018 might have been
16:30 2 car
17:00 2 car
17:30 2 car
18:00 2 car

But passengers instead end up with
16:30 2 car
17:30 2 car

Then on investigation it turns out the missing 2 car DMU is need elsewhere so it can run an additional counter-peak service on a route which is getting its' enhancements!

Yes,more ill thought out planning.
Silk purse and sows ear springs to mind

 

[muz379]

Then on investigation it turns out the missing 2 car DMU is needed elsewhere so it can run an additional counter-peak service on a route which is getting its' enhancements!

It does seem as if the DMU fleet is going to be spread extremely thin as a result of the timetable change . I expect to see a lot more cancellations because of lack of stock in situations when previously a short formed service would have run . If something is only planned for 1 unit then there is no scope to short form it should there be a unit shortage .

Obviously as a side effect of delayed electrification of Manchester - preston

 

[northernchris]

Ive heard that reduction in formations is going to occur on a lot of lines with a lot of services previously worked by multiple units being formed of single ones .

Combined with some peak time reductions in service this could cause a lot of issues. However, taking West Yorkshire as an example there will be 3 units less required (2 off the Leeds-Huddersfield stopper and 1 less required on Huddersfield-Wakefield) so in theory these units should be available for other routes in the region. If the 170s enter service that should also free up some units, but so far I can't seem to work out where additional units will be required apart from perhaps one more for Leeds-Carlisle/Morecambe. I hope the units aren't cascaded elsewhere as Leeds saw a reduction in peak time capacity in December

Another potential issue is if the driver shortages continue, or services are cancelled through a unit shortage it will take longer for the backlog of passengers to be cleared if the following trains have less capacity.

 

[Red Devil]

The debacle that is Arriva rail is set to continue. More driver's to be released to learn Blackpool means more cancellations in the train plan, this commences Monday.
I've seen the sheets for Monday, I'll just say this. Refer to Journey check and have a plan B ready if heading for Manchester early doors

 

[route101]

Was down in Lancashire yesterday .
Few things , caught a refurbished 3 car 158 , very comfortable .
Couldn't find any printed timetables at Preston , Blackpool North and Blackburn.
Not really Northern related but dont rely on Google maps for train times . I was gonna wait for a train from Blackburn to Bolton via Darwen . There was engineering works and didn't realise until i was at Blackburn .
Line speeds on the Clitheroe services are pretty slow.

 

[northwichcat]

Not really Northern related but dont rely on Google maps for train times . I was gonna wait for a train from Blackburn to Bolton via Darwen . There was engineering works and didn't realise until i was at Blackburn .

Google Maps also ignores official connection times at larger stations, despite giving generous timings for walking legs.

 

[Red Devil]

First 2 out of 3 cancelled on Southport line this morning. Busy services into Manchester those. Wigan the depot struggling to cover their work today.

 

[northwichcat]

Currently at just after 09:00 there's 26 cancellations listed with the last the 13:58 Windermere to Oxenholme, all bar one of them are listed as being due to driver shortages.

 

[geoffk]

I use the Calder Valley line a lot and cancellations here have been few other than at times of disruption outside the railway's control. Electrification issues aside, why are these cancellations affecting only the north-west? Are drivers not being trained on new types of unit in Yorkshire? (I read 156s at Leeds, 155s at Hull). And does the rest-day working dispute (if that's what it is) only affect the north-west? I was told that there was an issue when Northern took over from TPE to Barrow and Windermere as the two companies had different conditions, but that this had been resolved. I'm aware from RTT and Northern's website how bad it has been recently, especially on the Windermere line and Preston - Ormskirk.

 

[Red Devil]

I use the Calder Valley line a lot and cancellations here have been few other than at times of disruption outside the railway's control. Electrification issues aside, why are these cancellations affecting only the north-west? Are drivers not being trained on new types of unit in Yorkshire? (I read 156s at Leeds, 155s at Hull). And does the rest-day working dispute (if that's what it is) only affect the north-west? I was told that there was an issue when Northern took over from TPE to Barrow and Windermere as the two companies had different conditions, but that this had been resolved. I'm aware from RTT and Northern's website how bad it has been recently, especially on the Windermere line and Preston - Ormskirk.

There is no RDW dispute, rest day agreement finished and wasn't renewed or extended by the company.
This is caused by a shortage of drivers. There aren't enough drivers to cover the work. This is usually covered by drivers working rest days to cover shortfalls.
But no agreement so this is the consequence.

 

[geoffk]

There is no RDW dispute, rest day agreement finished and wasn't renewed or extended by the company.
This is caused by a shortage of drivers. There aren't enough drivers to cover the work. This is usually covered by drivers working rest days to cover shortfalls.
But no agreement so this is the consequence.

Thanks, but why does the driver shortage apparently affect only the north-west? Does it go back to the days of First North-Western and Arriva North-East (i.e. different terms and conditions)?

 

[geoffk]

Passengers booking Ormskirk to Blackpool South will be told to get off at Preston and wait for an hour because the train restarts there in less than the minimum connection time. Of course, once on the actual train the guard is likely to inform them that they can arrive an hour early, but how many people will get that far when they go onto the website and see it takes well over 2 hours to make that journey?

That's the problem with journey planners and why I never use them. Once you know the way the trains work, you can save the hour and just stay on the train. The difficulty will be for Colne etc. - Blackpool passengers who will have to walk from bay platform 3C at the south end of Preston all the way to no. 1, maybe with luggage.

 

[route101]

That's the problem with journey planners and why I never use them. Once you know the way the trains work, you can save the hour and just stay on the train. The difficulty will be for Colne etc. - Blackpool passengers who will have to walk from bay platform 3C at the south end of Preston all the way to no. 1, maybe with luggage.

Blackpool South to Colne is that getting split?

 

[Bovverboy]

The difficulty will be for Colne etc. - Blackpool passengers who will have to walk from bay platform 3C at the south end of Preston all the way to no. 1, maybe with luggage.

They will have an eight minute connection for a Blackpool North train, and thirteen minutes for a Blackpool South. Platform 3C to Platform 1 isn't such a big deal, via the subway.

 

[Bovverboy]

Blackpool South to Colne is that getting split?

It's going to cease being advertised as a through train, but in reality it will continue to be one. Colne to Blackpool South is being split, though. The circuit will effectively be Colne - Ormskirk, Ormskirk - Blackpool South, Blackpool South - Colne.

 

[geoffk]

Can someone explain the situation re Sunday working? I understood that all Sunday work was on rest day/overtime, i.e. voluntary, but that, with the welcome increase in Sunday trains (welcome to passengers, that is) there was a move to include Sundays into the working week as the old way of doing things was no longer an option.

 

[geoffk]

There is no RDW dispute, rest day agreement finished and wasn't renewed or extended by the company.
This is caused by a shortage of drivers. There aren't enough drivers to cover the work. This is usually covered by drivers working rest days to cover shortfalls.
But no agreement so this is the consequence.

I now see there are cancellations on the Saltburn to Bishop Auckland service - the reason, shortage of drivers. So not just a north-west issue.

 

[Eccles1983]

Can someone explain the situation re Sunday working? I understood that all Sunday work was on rest day/overtime, i.e. voluntary, but that, with the welcome increase in Sunday trains (welcome to passengers, that is) there was a move to include Sundays into the working week as the old way of doing things was no longer an option.

It is still the way it is. And long may it continue.

The company laughably attempted to bring them into the working week on a cost netural basis and were laughed out of the room.

They didnt understand that it will cost lots of money, and they need to increase driver numbers considerably.

 

[northernchris]

I now see there are cancellations on the Saltburn to Bishop Auckland service - the reason, shortage of drivers. So not just a north-west issue.

Most Yorkshire depots have held up well though with very few cancellations so far from Leeds/Sheffield/Skipton/York/Hull depots being down to driver shortages, and that's despite some Leeds crew having to sign Blackpool again