Arriva Rail North DOO

[Robertj21a]

Carlisle, my post is based on my 40 years experience in the rail industry including Senior Leadership roles accountable for DOO working and post incident investigation. I have also driven DOO services under the SMA in the mid 1980's. I am not saying DOO is unsafe, I am not saying the guard should control the doors. What I am saying however is I have yet to read an objective assessment that further DOO working is safe and sensible without a second safety critical person still on-board.

You've lost me a bit there.....
Why does it need 'further DOO working' to have another assessment when it's been in operation for decades already ?

 

[Tractor2018]

You've lost me a bit there.....
Why does it need 'further DOO working' to have another assessment when it's been in operation for decades already ?

Train formations and passenger numbers are at a level not envisaged at the time of initial DOO implementation.

 

[northwichcat]

Train formations and passenger numbers are at a level not envisaged at the time of initial DOO implementation.

While that is true, I'm not sure Northern or Merseyrail services will be carrying more passengers than were envisaged on Network South East services when NSE introduced DOO. Another thing to consider is initial DOO didn't include cameras on all the doors so new DOO should be safer on platforms which aren't straight.

 

[Tractor2018]

While that is true, I'm not sure Northern or Merseyrail services will be carrying more passengers than were envisaged on Network South East services when NSE introduced DOO. Another thing to consider is initial DOO didn't include cameras on all the doors so new DOO should be safer on platforms which aren't straight.

You might know affected services better than me. What I know of the services affected by Northern DOO, the increase in passengers could be relatively/proportionately the same as the instances you mention?

Regarding the equipment/technology - just take that right off the table, forget it, it's not a consideration. The effect certain weather conditions have on cameras, I don't know how to put it...........as much use as a chocolate fire guard. Then you need degraded dispatch, where delays snowball out of control.

 

[whitrope]

You've lost me a bit there.....
Why does it need 'further DOO working' to have another assessment when it's been in operation for decades already ?

Robert I am completely neutral about DOO its having the second safety critical person on board that I believe should be a prerequisite of all further DOO schemes and should be applied retrospectively to most if not all of the current DOO routes.

 

[northwichcat]

You might know affected services better than me. What I know of the services affected by Northern DOO, the increase in passengers could be relatively/proportionately the same as the instances you mention?

What exact point are trying to make? DOO was approved for 8 car formations on Thameslink and there's no suggestion Northern will run anything longer than 6 car as DOO, in fact many services will be shorter than that. Of course routes like Manchester Airport to Blackpool have more passengers than when DOO in the NSE area was first approved - Manchester Airport didn't even have a station then! Are you trying to suggest Northern are carrying more passengers per service now than Thameslink was when DOO was first introduced on Thameslink?

 

[whitrope]

What exact point are trying to make? DOO was approved for 8 car formations on Thameslink and there's no suggestion Northern will run anything longer than 6 car as DOO, in fact many services will be shorter than that. Of course routes like Manchester Airport to Blackpool have more passengers than when DOO in the NSE area was first approved - Manchester Airport didn't even have a station then! Are you trying to suggest Northern are carrying more passengers per service now than Thameslink was when DOO was first introduced on Thameslink?

I am not talking about passenger numbers or anything else other than firm principles. I assume you wouldn't fly on holiday on a POO aircraft so what's different about rail when things go wrong as two heads are always better than one. The introduction of DOO in the 1980's was made under the threat of line closures etc if it wasn't accepted. I didn't think it was right then and I don't think its right now. As previously said its not about who controls the doors but it is about safety. You quote thameslink so why not read the 1W95 report into the train failure at Kings Cross and how the driver (who's integrity and professionalism I can vouch for personally) struggled to deal with a failed train and out of control passengers at the same time.

 

[northwichcat]

I am not talking about passenger numbers or anything else other than firm principles.

That post was in reply to Tractor2018 who seemed to either be struggling with his argument or not explaining himself very well.

I assume you wouldn't fly on holiday on a POO aircraft so what's different about rail when things go wrong as two heads are always better than one. The introduction of DOO in the 1980's was made under the threat of line closures etc if it wasn't accepted. I didn't think it was right then and I don't think its right now. As previously said its not about who controls the doors but it is about safety. You quote safety so why not read the 1W95 report into the train failure at Kings Cross and how the driver (who's integrity and professionalism I can vouch for personally) struggled to deal with a failed train and out of control passengers at the same time.

I'm not in favour of trains having just a driver on board, in fact with some long formations I don't even think 2 members of staff on board is sufficient e.g. I think a pair of Voyagers should ideally have at least 3.

In terms of going on holiday I wouldn't fly with an airline that ignore their legal requirement to have two people in the cock pit and one member of cabin crew for every 50 seats or their requirements to provide life jackets and oxygen masks for emergencies. I think an automated train can legally operate with no staff on board at all so while a second or third member of staff have uses there's no legal requirement to not run a service because they've phoned in sick and a replacement can't be sourced. I also don't think the UK is an exception in allowing that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is quite a big difference between a plane and any other mode of transport, though - with most modes of transport if there is a problem it is normally the safest option simply to stop as soon as possible.

 

[driver_m]

A pair of voyagers has to have 3 people in it. There has to be customer facing staff in both otherwise a set gets locked out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A pair of voyagers has to have 3 people in it. There has to be customer facing staff in both otherwise a set gets locked out.

That is however just a TOC policy (possibly based on union agreement). Other TOCs operate non-gangwayed units with *no staff at all* in one or more of the units, most notably GWR and Chiltern.

 

[northwichcat]

There is quite a big difference between a plane and any other mode of transport, though - with most modes of transport if there is a problem it is normally the safest option simply to stop as soon as possible.

Indeed. Emergencies on a plane aren't as easy to cope with, even something like a passenger having a heart attack on board, which could happen on any form of transport. A train can stop at most stations to let emergency services on board - even if the train is too long for the platform, local door operation can be used. However, some planes are too big for certain runways so can't land there even in an emergency to just let emergency services on board to attend to one passenger, while weather conditions may mean certain runways can't be used. Then while you've got the pilot and co-pilot organising an emergency landing and one member of cabin crew attending to the ill passenger, the others still have to carry out the normal pre-landing procedures - like ensuring the toilets are vacant, passengers are wearing their seatbelts, luggage is stowed safely and the overhead luggage compartments are shut etc.

 

[northwichcat]

That is however just a TOC policy (possibly based on union agreement). Other TOCs operate non-gangwayed units with *no staff at all* in one or more of the units, most notably GWR and Chiltern.

I'm pretty sure Southeastern operate 465s in multiple with just a driver on board.

 

[Tractor2018]

I'm out. Wasted enough breath.

 

[driver_m]

You'd be rather annoyed if you'd paid first class and found that there no seats because everyone decided to not bother sitting in their standard seats. Whatever other TOC's do, well that's their call.

 

[hwl]

I'm pretty sure Southeastern operate 465s in multiple with just a driver on board.

Yes - upto 12car. Ditto GN and Greater Anglia with some units too.
Older 10car EPB formations on the Kent Metro services also didn't have a staff member in every unit either... and 1000+ pax per train. See Cannon Street report as an example of loadings just pre-DOO conversion.

 

[northwichcat]

You'd be rather annoyed if you'd paid first class and found that there no seats because everyone decided to not bother sitting in their standard seats. Whatever other TOC's do, well that's their call.

Yet there's actually a worse scenario than that. A 10 car Voyager running with 5 cars locked out-of-use due to staff shortages and all seats (first and standard) occupied meaning there's standing room only even if you only have a first class ticket.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes - upto 12car. Ditto GN and Greater Anglia with some units too.
Older 10car EPB formations on the Kent Metro services also didn't have a staff member in every unit either... and 1000+ pax per train. See Cannon Street report as an example of loadings just pre-DOO conversion.

It would seem to be more logical for unions to campaign against existing DOO based on higher loadings and longer formations being used than when it was first introduced, than to try and oppose new DOO on routes where the formations are shorter and loadings are lower. Although, saying that the court effectively told ASLEF they didn't have a leg to stand on when they told their members working Gatwick Express to refuse to work 12 x 20m workings as they hadn't agreed anything longer than 10 x 23m car workings.

 

[whitrope]

Worth a read for the flat earth brigade who think driving a 8/10/12 car train with seven hundred souls on board is so straight forwards

https--assets.publishing.service.gov.uk-media-547c8fe040f0b6024100016d-R072012_120523_Kentish_Town.pdf

 

[Carlisle]

Robert I am completely neutral about DOO its having the second safety critical person on board that I believe should be a prerequisite of all further DOO schemes and should be applied retrospectively to most if not all of the current DOO routes.

Id probably support something similar to the Southen or Strathclyde models as the solution to most current and future DOO disputes, unless the RSSBs incident statistics are wrong there’s really little point in forever training the vast majority of onboard staff to a curriculum that’s barely altered since the likes of slam doors, absolute block, red star parcels, manual coupling and zero mobile communications.were the everyday norm on our railways .Rightly or wrongly times and technology have changed.

 

[Robertj21a]

Robert I am completely neutral about DOO its having the second safety critical person on board that I believe should be a prerequisite of all further DOO schemes and should be applied retrospectively to most if not all of the current DOO routes.

It must be me.......

You say that you are completely neutral about Driver Only Operation - but then go on to say that you believe a second safety critical person should be on board. So that's not DOO then !

Given that we've had Thameslink operating 12 coach trains through the centre of London as DOO for very many years, I have this distinct feeling that some people are attempting to go back in time, for no good reason whatsoever.

If there was a significant risk associated with operating DOO on Thameslink, or on any of the other DOO operations, I'm fairly sure the Unions or HSA would have been shouting out the facts from every possible rooftop.

 

[Wychwood93]

It must be me.......

You say that you are completely neutral about Driver Only Operation - but then go on to say that you believe a second safety critical person should be on board. So that's not DOO then !

Given that we've had Thameslink operating 12 coach trains through the centre of London as DOO for very many years, I have this distinct feeling that some people are attempting to go back in time, for no good reason whatsoever.

If there was a significant risk associated with operating DOO on Thameslink, or on any of the other DOO operations, I'm fairly sure the Unions or HSA would have been shouting out the facts from every possible rooftop.

A good post. I am more than a little surprised that I am the first to comment after a tad under three hours. As the thread has wandered on to 3100+ posts the arguments have become somewhat weary. What eventually is agreed is, I am sure I have mentioned this before, between the RMT and 'Northern'. It is quite possible that both parties will have an accord re. 'local' (DOO) and other (second member of staff) services - a touch more 'political' show-boating by both sides and then a 'resolution' compatible to all will be announced. Job done. Both sides happy and the trains continue to run.

 

[HowardGWR]

A good post. I am more than a little surprised that I am the first to comment after a tad under three hours. As the thread has wandered on to 3100+ posts the arguments have become somewhat weary.

That's why I am not making any further comments and I suspect no one else is. That which I have emboldened is the reason.

 

[driver_m]

I've had enough of it too. I'm going to try and stay away from it.

 

[johntea]

Who is actually doing ticket checks and sales on board during the strikes? This morning a polite young woman was trying her best to do so on my service but seemed to be struggling quite a bit! She was just dressed in normal clothing too rather than any sort of Northern uniform.

Is it just Arriva Rail North back office staff?

 

[woodmally]

So then folks what do people think will be the end result of all this strike action.

1) It will end at the end of the franchise.
2) It will end when DOO is implemented.
3) It will end soon in the next few months as RMT will back down.
4) Northern will find a way to bypass the agreement they have made with the government and stop implementation of DOO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I predict an OBS style agreement.

 

[Carlisle]

I predict an OBS style agreement.

Possibly, but bear in mind RMT haven’t yet even accepted OBS on Southern, despite it s existence for well over a year .

 

[woodmally]

I predict an OBS style agreement.

What is OBS?

 

[woodmally]

Forget my previous response I have just googled it. I am confused why an OBS would be the way forward. As surely this is what Northern are wanting given they have agreed to keep guards but in a new role.