Did Network South East ever consider using HSTs?

[Masbroughlad]

Were we ever close to getting NSE HST?

 

[yorkie]

I think the closest was that HSTs may have been briefly considered for London Waterloo to Exeter, but rejected in favour of Class 159s.

But given the type of services operated by NSE, it's pretty clear that HSTs were unlikely to be suitable for almost any of their routes.

 

[Taunton]

Pre-NSE, the BR "cascade" plan from the late 1970s envisaged HSTs eventually being bumped down to Waterloo-Exeter by APTs coming to other routes. I can't recall if Liverpool Street to Norwich was envisaged as electric when the plan was done - it appeared a sa full page chart in a Modern Railways of the era.

Am I correct that some at least of the Mk 3 stock on Norwich services today are ex-HST trailers, so have got there in the end.

 

[hexagon789]

Am I correct that some at least of the Mk 3 stock on Norwich services today are ex-HST trailers, so have got there in the end.

Some of the RFM (Restaurant First Modular), which are now I think (all bar one) converted to TSOB (Tourist Standard Open Buffet) may have been HST TRUKs (Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Kitchen) as many were converted to LHCS Mk3 catering vehicles.

However as far as I'm aware all the First Opens and Tourist Standard Opens are all Mk3a or 3b LHCS and were never HST trailers.

I'll check the books later

 

[hexagon789]

Were we ever close to getting NSE HST?

I think, as Yorkie has stated, the HSTs were considered for the West of England route and one believe they were to be shortened for these services.

However, I think they were thought to be surplus because of the ECML electrification, though may have been posited for cascading to NSE during the APT-P development.

 

[Polarbear]

I agree with Yorkie & hexagon 789. The only NSE route ever considered for HST's was the Waterloo-Exeter line. I'm not sure they would have been terribly suitable though, given the "stop-start" nature of services along that corridor. The idea of purloining 158's from the Regional Railways order & tarting them up a bit was possibly not the best idea either, but we are where we are.

 

[hexagon789]

Apparently BR considered 5 options for the WoE route:

1. re-furbishment of existing stock (50s and 47/7s with Mk2s) to extend life

2. construction of new class of diesel loco (the proposed class 48 was considered for this) with new-build LHCS

3. new-build DMU stock, the class 158s which were already ordered and being built for Regional Railways; or the proposed class 171 (which would've been a fully air-conditioned InterCity version of the Class 165 and built to the standard loading gauge (this of course progressed into the Class 168).

4. 750V, 3rd rail electrification between Worting Junction & Exeter, using either brand-new or cascaded existing EMUs

5. The use of cascaded Intercity 125s freed up by the ECML electrification, in either 1+5 or 2+8 formation.

Of course option 3 is what prevailed with 3-car 158s being refitted and re-classed as 159s for the West of England route, the primary modifications being retention toilets and a larger and higher quality First Class.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The Waterloo - Exeter mentioned above was a serious enough consideration that NSE produced an image of an HST in their livery at Waterloo. I recall it being on some leaflets they produced early on about their aspirations but I'm afraid I don't have one to hand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with Yorkie & hexagon 789. The only NSE route ever considered for HST's was the Waterloo-Exeter line. I'm not sure they would have been terribly suitable though, given the "stop-start" nature of services along that corridor. The idea of purloining 158's from the Regional Railways order & tarting them up a bit was possibly not the best idea either, but we are where we are.

I dunno, I think they're pretty perfect for the route, really.

 

[43096]

I think the closest was that HSTs may have been briefly considered for London Waterloo to Exeter, but rejected in favour of Class 159s.

But given the type of services operated by NSE, it's pretty clear that HSTs were unlikely to be suitable for almost any of their routes.

HSTs were not “rejected” for Waterloo - Exeter: there were none available. They might have been considered at the early stage of planning HST redeployment after East Coast electrification, but the InterCity sector very quickly realised they were far too valuable an asset for IC services to let other sectors get their mitts on them.

 

[43096]

Some of the RFM (Restaurant First Modular), which are now I think (all bar one) converted to TSOB (Tourist Standard Open Buffet) may have been HST TRUKs (Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Kitchen) as many were converted to LHCS Mk3 catering vehicles.

However as far as I'm aware all the First Opens and Tourist Standard Opens are all Mk3a or 3b LHCS and were never HST trailers.

I'll check the books later

Only two of the Anglia fleet are ex-HST TRUKs - 10411/412, formerly 10200/203 and originally 40519/506.

 

[43096]

Am I correct that some at least of the Mk 3 stock on Norwich services today are ex-HST trailers, so have got there in the end.

Liverpool Street - Norwich was an InterCity sector operation, though, not NSE.

 

[theblackwatch]

Only two of the Anglia fleet are ex-HST TRUKs - 10411/412, formerly 10200/203 and originally 40519/506.

May be worth also mentioning that another TRUK, 40516, actually received NSE livery - it was a demonstrator/display vehicle prior to the introduction of the Plastic Pigs, but I can't remember if it just got repainted or was given a 442 style interior as well.

 

[Drsatan]

5. The use of cascaded Intercity 125s freed up by the ECML electrification, in either 1+5 or 2+8 formation.

I'm assuming if HSTs were planned for 1+5 operation, any surplus power cars would have been converted to DVTs.

 

[43096]

I'm assuming if HSTs were planned for 1+5 operation, any surplus power cars would have been converted to DVTs.

InterCity had a plan at one point to convert sets into 1+5 with TGS vehicles converted to DGS (Driving Guard Standard) by adding a cab.

 

[Cowley]

InterCity had a plan at one point to convert sets into 1+5 with TGS vehicles converted to DGS (Driving Guard Standard) by adding a cab.

That’s interesting. Did any designs get produced do you know 43096?

 

[43096]

That’s interesting. Did any designs get produced do you know 43096?

I think there were artists impressions done, at least.

There was a subsequent plan for splitting sets that Great Western came up with before buying the 180s that also involved inserting driving cabs into Mark 3s, though I think that may have involved converting sleepers. Certainly detailed design work was done on that proposal.

 

[Cowley]

I think there were artists impressions done, at least.

There was a subsequent plan for splitting sets that Great Western came up with before buying the 180s that also involved inserting driving cabs into Mark 3s, though I think that may have involved converting sleepers. Certainly detailed design work was done on that proposal.

I didn’t know any of this. Thanks for that.

 

[hexagon789]

Only two of the Anglia fleet are ex-HST TRUKs - 10411/412, formerly 10200/203 and originally 40519/506.

Couldn't really remember, I knew that some RFMs were originally Mk3 LHCS catering vehicles but not which exactly.

I'm assuming if HSTs were planned for 1+5 operation, any surplus power cars would have been converted to DVTs.

As others have stated the TGS was to have a cab fitted, I believe à la 442-style.

 

[Gareth Marston]

BR never built the quantities of HST's it originally envisaged they wanted all of Cross Country, Liverpool to Newcastle and Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen.

Waterloo to Exeter was not part of the initial plans.

 

[hexagon789]

BR never built the quantities of HST's it originally envisaged they wanted all of Cross Country, Liverpool to Newcastle and Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen.

Waterloo to Exeter was not part of the initial plans.

No indeed it wasn't, but if BR had got the 161 sets it originally planned instead of just 95, it may have more readily become a reality.

 

[43096]

Couldn't really remember, I knew that some RFMs were originally Mk3 LHCS catering vehicles but not which exactly.

RFMs 10200-211 were converted from HST TRUKs. 10212-229 were converted from LHCS Mark 3A FOs and 10230-238/240-242/245-260 were previously Mark 3A LHCS RUBs.

There were no RFMs numbered 10239/43/44 - I assume these numbers clashed with 4-SUB or 4-EPB vehicles?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Were we ever close to getting NSE HST?

I can't remember the actual date (must have been early 80s), but the WR was so flush with HSTs that they were to be found running Oxford-Reading stoppers.
The jokey announcer at Oxford called them "Inter-Village HSTs" - not something which would get past the brand police these days.
These were services that later came under NSE.
I think they were return workings of Paddington-Oxford peak fasts.
Once the sectors came in, Inter-City stopped all that nonsense and made the WR give up some of its HSTs for the Midland route (because the DfT would not authorise new ones).
Later on, HSTs from the WR pool were drafted onto the WCML by Inter-City for Holyhead/Blackpool services.

 

[hexagon789]

RFMs 10200-211 were converted from HST TRUKs. 10212-229 were converted from LHCS Mark 3A FOs and 10230-238/240-242/245-260 were previously Mark 3A LHCS RUBs

Hadn't realised some were converted from FOs. So just 2 of GA's are ex-TRUKs then and the rest were originally LCHS of some description.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There were no RFMs numbered 10239/43/44 - I assume these numbers clashed with 4-SUB or 4-EPB vehicles?

Indeed, 10239 was in 4732 which was still extant on the main line in 1988. I can't find anything that would clash with the other two though.

Interestingly all three were listed in the 1986 and 1987 combined volumes as being planned, although certainly not in the 1988 one after the conversions actually took place. But also the earlier two volumes had conversions booked up to 10263 but they ended at 10260. So could it have been as simple as six conversions never taking place?

 

[Ash Bridge]

May be worth also mentioning that another TRUK, 40516, actually received NSE livery - it was a demonstrator/display vehicle prior to the introduction of the Plastic Pigs, but I can't remember if it just got repainted or was given a 442 style interior as well.

Yes, it was apparently refitted internally at Derby Litchurch Lane with seating in Standard, 1st Open and 1st Compartment styles as intended for the forthcoming 442s. The interior was later removed with the coach being included in the Mk3a RFB rebuild contract, it was then renumbered 10207.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The enterprising Area Manager Salisbury borrowed an HST set off the WR to publicise the (new) Tisbury Loop. He did well to get that cleared with the tensions between the 2 Regions ! .......otherwise nothing more than an easily discounted plan for WAT-EX HST's , despite the route having commendable premium earnings for a good period in the late 1980's , particularly I was told in optional 1st class when the fayre was class 50's and LHCS !

 

[Helvellyn]

There is an interesting article in the current issue of RAIL detailing the cascade plans that were looked at as part of the East Coast Main Line electrification scheme (as an aside some good historical articles being published recently). Part of the justification for ECML electrification was cascade of virtually all the HST fleet (30+ units) onto profitable services. Provincial and London & South East (later NSE) identified their most profitable services that could utilise HSTs. As well as the WoE route NSE also looked at using them on Paddington-Oxford-Worcester and London-Birmingham. With WoE option there would have been a loss some seats compared to a loco-hauled set on some peak workings, but NSE was supposedly happy to accept that. It should be remembered that the WoE loco-hauled sets that worked through to Exeter were typically formed loco+9 (six TSOs, a TSOT and 2 BFKs - 439 standard and 48 First). A 2+7 HST set based on a CrossCountry formation (TF-TRSBTS-TS-TS-TS-TGS) would have had 48 First and 402 Standard seats, so yes, some loss. But if it ran as 2+8 there would have been an increase or even pretty much the same if the TRSB in a 2+7 was switched for a TS.

In the end I think NSE made the right call taking surplus 158s off Regional Railways as it allowed greater flexibility, with the option to run 3, 6 or 9 car formations as required.

 

[hexagon789]

There is an interesting article in the current issue of RAIL detailing the cascade plans that were looked at as part of the East Coast Main Line electrification scheme (as an aside some good historical articles being published recently). Part of the justification for ECML electrification was cascade of virtually all the HST fleet (30+ units) onto profitable services. Provincial and London & South East (later NSE) identified their most profitable services that could utilise HSTs. As well as the WoE route NSE also looked at using them on Paddington-Oxford-Worcester and London-Birmingham. With WoE option there would have been a loss some seats compared to a loco-hauled set on some peak workings, but NSE was supposedly happy to accept that. It should be remembered that the WoE loco-hauled sets that worked through to Exeter were typically formed loco+9 (six TSOs, a TSOT and 2 BFKs - 439 standard and 48 First). A 2+7 HST set based on a CrossCountry formation (TF-TRSBTS-TS-TS-TS-TGS) would have had 48 First and 402 Standard seats, so yes, some loss. But if it ran as 2+8 there would have been an increase or even pretty much the same if the TRSB in a 2+7 was switched for a TS.

In the end I think NSE made the right call taking surplus 158s off Regional Railways as it allowed greater flexibility, with the option to run 3, 6 or 9 car formations as required.

I think the 159s were probably the best option aside from electrification (might have had 442s then), but I don't think HSTs would've been a bad idea either.

 

[The Ham]

HST's for WofE would have probably been good for some (probably cheaper tickets West of Salisbury to get bums on seats and more 158's for other operators) however electrification would have been very interesting (but no, or very few, Waterloo to Bristol services) as there could be splitting of services at Basingstoke in the off peak (as it would allow 5 coach services to each of Southampton and Exeter whilst running as a 10 coach train out of Waterloo, add this would reduce the number of drivers needed, which could be useful in late night services) or even allowing the more minor stations to be served by other services (possibly an extension of the Basingstoke Stoppers).