Pacer allocations in the Manchester Area

[northwichcat]

Thank you for all these suggestions, was looking into getting a GM Wayfarer ticket, does this cover enough track for a few good 142 bashes?

Yes. Pacers go to Northwich, Warrington, Grindleford, Darwen, Chorley and Parbold and possibly Littlebrough but if not at least as far as Rochdale. You probably wouldn't have time to ride between Manchester and all of those in the same day.

 

[Roast Veg]

Manchester to Sheffield via New Mills is a good one. Great views through the Peak District, lots of stops and a few long tunnels including Totley.

I took this service as far as New Mills yesterday afternoon, it was standing room only with day trippers to Manchester. Plus it was one of the units full of airline 3 abreast seating, which was awful to try and climb in and out of!

 

[mjn]

I was on it too yesterday afternoon. New Mills to Grindleford then Grindleford to Piccadilly. I much prefer the full bench seats as they seem to have more leg room. Managed to get a seat both times, but yes it was busy.

 

[northwichcat]

Saturday trains can be very busy on almost any route in the Manchester area. On occasions you're lucky if you're actually able to get on to the train!

 

[barrow trains]

I'm thinking about doing the Preston to Ormskirk branch. From May there will be 3 diagrams doing the Colne and Ormskirk Saturday runs at the same time. Does anyone know at this stage how likely at least one of these could be a 142? Thanks.

 

[Altfish]

On the Skyscraper City website there were a series of photos taken showing the realigned Victoria to Stalybridge line on the first day of opening. Post #450
Note the number of Pacers!!
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=2019509&page=23

 

[mde]

We did Piccadilly to Chester all shacks on a Pacer recently - it's quite a 'fun' ride… if that's your thing.

 

[Grannyjoans]

Certainly it's a picturesque line but I don't think trains running the all stops on the Hope Valley have much chance of getting anywhere near their top speed.

Towards Sheffield: Between Edale & Hope you can do 75mph and through Totley Tunnel as well. Same again on the midland mainline between Dore and Sheffield.
Towards Manchester: Between Edale to Chinley the Pacer units can max out.

 

[Grannyjoans]

The Hope Valley line pacers are generally very poor though. Running at 45mph max on uphill sections between stations with a linespeed of 90mph happens quite a lot.

 

[childwallblues]

Unfortunately you are too late for the WCML Euxton to Wigan and Chat Moss lines which are now operated by 319s. The 100mph WCML was a fantastic thrash on a Pacer.

 

[Grannyjoans]

How many drivers would dare let a Pacer do much more than 75mph ? I know I won't risk it but I'm wondering if any have hit anywhere near 100mph? I know that they can do much more than 75mph, there is still some obvious acceleration if the power is left on at that sort of speed on the flat or more especially if it's on a downhill section.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

How many drivers would dare let a Pacer do much more than 75mph ? I know I won't risk it but I'm wondering if any have hit anywhere near 100mph? I know that they can do much more than 75mph, there is still some obvious acceleration if the power is left on at that sort of speed on the flat or more especially if it's on a downhill section.

Very few nowadays due to the data recorders, though in the past enforcement wasn't quite as stringent... there have been stories about Pacers being inadvertently dragged at 90mph behind 158s.

 

[Grannyjoans]

I've once travelled pass on a Pacer in the rear cab between Bolton-Manchester to see it was reading 85mph so very occasionally some drivers are still at it. I do feel that Pacers are way more capable than 75mph power wise but the restriction is there due to the chasis being unproven to handle higher speeds safely.

 

[M60lad]

Regarding Paceers on Chatt Moss Line and Wigan-Preston via Euxton, I'm sure it can happen at the moment at weekends as its still diesles between Preston-Manchester Airport at the moment and I had 2X156s on 19:12 Preston-Manchester Airport last night and was thinking that 142s couple probably be used on some of these workings

 

[northwichcat]

Unfortunately you are too late for the WCML Euxton to Wigan and Chat Moss lines which are now operated by 319s. The 100mph WCML was a fantastic thrash on a Pacer.

You can still do Piccadilly to Stockport non-stop on a Pacer.

 

[faltskog36abba]

I've once travelled pass on a Pacer in the rear cab between Bolton-Manchester to see it was reading 85mph so very occasionally some drivers are still at it. I do feel that Pacers are way more capable than 75mph power wise but the restriction is there due to the chasis being unproven to handle higher speeds safely.

I once travelled on a pacer on an empty stock working from Kirkby to Manchester. It sped all the way to Wigan doing 75, But felt much faster.

 

[Grannyjoans]

I once travelled on a pacer on an empty stock working from Kirkby to Manchester. It sped all the way to Wigan doing 75, But felt much faster.

That's bad the linespeed is only 70mph and then after Pemberton it drops to 40

 

[GrahamD83]

I rode a pacer from Newcastle - Carlisle today. There's a stretch just outside Carlisle where I thought it was derailing! Bouncing and clattering over the track. I'm used to them on the Durham Coast line but this is my longest/fastest journey on one.

 

[Grannyjoans]

Lancaster to Preston is a Pacer at about 23:00. 21 miles of 75mph running, or more if the driver ever dares to go faster (not me I don't risk if, it something happens at that speed, it would be horrendous)
I often wonder what speed the 142 would actually reach if the power is left on the whole way on the Lanc-Preston run.

 

[Bevan Price]

Southport line still sees Pacers. Passed a pair of them on the Chat Moss line on Saturday (5 May) on what seems to have been the diverted 19:37 Southport - Manchester Oxford Road (booked non stop Wigan Wallgate to Deansgate).

 

[53703]

I once did a 142 Sheffield to Doncaster non stop once, excellent bit of thrash

 

[northwichcat]

Southport line still sees Pacers. Passed a pair of them on the Chat Moss line on Saturday (5 May) on what seems to have been the diverted 19:37 Southport - Manchester Oxford Road (booked non stop Wigan Wallgate to Deansgate).

The OP asked about which lines is likely to have them on Saturdays in August, when around half of Southport services will run as through services to Leeds.

 

[Eccles1983]

I once travelled on a pacer on an empty stock working from Kirkby to Manchester. It sped all the way to Wigan doing 75, But felt much faster.

I take it the tpws and aws were isolated as you'd not of got past Upholland tunnel due to the oss for the 30 psr, or even past Pemberton for the 40 psr.

So not only speeding but rule book breaches.

Hmmmm.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd say a Pacer at its maximum speed of 75mph is bouncy, but far smoother than a Mk4 at its maximum speed of 125mph. Make of that what you will...

 

[northwichcat]

I'd say a Pacer at its maximum speed of 75mph is bouncy, but far smoother than a Mk4 at its maximum speed of 125mph. Make of that what you will...

I'd say Pacers travelling at 75mph on good track (such as the WCML and ECML) aren't particularly bouncy but if an Intercity train passes at speed on the adjacent track then you really know about it! Pacers are most bouncy on jointed track or going over farmer's crossings.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd say Pacers travelling at 75mph on good track (such as the WCML and ECML) aren't particularly bouncy but if an Intercity train passes at speed on the adjacent track then you really know about it! Pacers are most bouncy on jointed track or going over farmer's crossings.

I should have clarified that I was assuming similar track conditions in my comparison.
You raise a good point regarding the "buffeting" from passing trains, but Pacers aren't significantly worse for this than, say, 150s or 455s. Considering the inherent limitations of the Pacer design (lightweight bodyshells, flimsy folding bus-style doors...) and the fact they'll almost certainly all be gone by 2020, this factor isn't significant.

That the Mk4s are so poor in terms of ride quality should be more of an issue than the legacy Pacers, especially if any current plans still involve retention of some IC225 sets for the foreseeable future.

 

[northwichcat]

I should have clarified that I was assuming similar track conditions in my comparison.

A branch line is hardly likely to be in the same condition as a mainline which allows running up to 125mph and I hope you don't have uncontrolled crossings on mainlines!

That the Mk4s are so poor in terms of ride quality should be more of an issue than the legacy Pacers, especially if any current plans still involve retention of some IC225 sets for the foreseeable future.

I've never really noticed the mk4s being excessively bouncy, I'd probably say the 185s are more bouncy from my experiences and the biggest issues with the mk4s is the lack of air compression in the carriages meaning your ears can suffer if the train goes through a number of tunnels or even under a lot of bridges.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As I said, I was assuming similar track conditions for both the Pacer at 75mph and the Mk4s at 125mph. So farmers crossings, jointed track and rural branch-lines don't feature in either because neither train would be permitted to run at full speed under those circumstances. I'll try again:

A Pacer at full speed on a well-maintained stretch of straight plain line, to me feels smoother (though that isn't saying much!) in terms of wheel-rail interface, than a Mk4 set at full speed on similarly-optimised track.

 

[northwichcat]

As I said, I was assuming similar track conditions for both the Pacer at 75mph and the Mk4s at 125mph. So farmers crossings, jointed track and rural branch-lines don't feature in either because neither train would be permitted to run at full speed under those circumstances. I'll try again:

A Pacer at full speed on a well-maintained stretch of straight plain line, to me feels smoother (though that isn't saying much!) in terms of wheel-rail interface, than a Mk4 set at full speed on similarly-optimised track.

The Pacer was designed for branch lines so anything you find on branch lines (tight curves, jointed track, farmer's crossings etc.) a Pacer should be able to cope with if it was well designed. The mk4 was designed for mainlines so if it doesn't perform well on branch lines that's not a fault of the train, it would be like running a Pacer from Edinburgh to London and then complaining it couldn't keep to the class 91 timings.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Pacer was designed for branch lines so anything you find on branch lines (tight curves, jointed track, farmer's crossings etc.) a Pacer should be able to cope with if it was well designed. The mk4 was designed for mainlines so if it doesn't perform well on branch lines that's not a fault of the train, it would be like running a Pacer from Edinburgh to London and then complaining it couldn't keep to the class 91 timings.

Pacers were indeed designed primarily for branch lines, but right from the start were often used on services like Huddersfield to Leeds. That isn't an express service but it isn't a branch line either. There's a fair bit of high-speed (If not much actually at 75) running and the track is engineered to a fairly high standard. Pacers generally ride pretty well on this route, all things considered: some of the shortcomings of their design are minimised if the track quality is high.

That Pacers don't cope so well with the issues one DOES find on the routes they were primarily designed for (jointed track for example) is just one of many flaws of latter-day BR policy though. The poor ride quality of Mk4s on the routes they were designed for, is another!