Advance fares: is it permitted to finish short?

[trebor79]

Hi,

I'm travelling from my local station to station X today. Yesterday I bought 2 advance singles for a total of £40. Usual conditions about using specific trains etc.

However upon collecting said tickets, the only reservation is on 1 leg of a 4 leg journey each way. The ticket is 'valid on the booked services below and any required connecting services. The booked service is out of one of the London termini.
The journey planner has given me an itinerary whereby I'm on peak trains into and out of London and there are no other restrictions on the tickets.

What's to prevent me booking these cheap fares to station X in future next time I fancy a cheap day out in London?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Nothing.

 

[trebor79]

That's what I thought.
Nice!

 

[Tetchytyke]

What's to prevent me booking these cheap fares to station X in future next time I fancy a cheap day out in London?

The rules of the ticket are that you cannot finish your journey short. You have to go all the way to station X.

Whether this can be enforced is the $64,000 question.

 

[robbeech]

Exactly, if you are doing a double back, say in to Liverpool Street and back out then it’s potentially problematic at the gateline but if it includes a cross London transfer it would be very difficult for anyone to know you’d not made it to your next train. Of course that sort of behaviour is frowned upon and it does break the rules so you shouldn’t do it under any circumstances.

 

[trebor79]

Well of course one must stick to the rules. Yes it involves a cross London transfer so as observed some miscreant could break the rules and be 99% certain not to get caught out.

 

[yorkie]

It is not permitted to finish short, but not always enforceable.

Loads of threads on the forum if you want to have a read.. https://www.google.com/search?q=advance+fare+finishing+short+site:railforums.co.uk

 

[_toommm_]

The official view is that it is disallowed as it can cause problems with money being absolved due to getting a cheaper longer distance ticket as opposed to paying the (potentially) higher fare of the shorter journey. As others have noted, it is unfortunately hit or miss as to whether you will get caught out or not, and different staff members will enforce it differently too, and sadly, ti can depend on what kind of mood they're in and what kind of day they've had.

However, as long as you don't 'cheat' the railway out of money i.e. the equivalent fare for the journey you are actually making is the same or less, then the railway should not charge you - see the thread in the disputes page about a father who did the same as you and was charged an excessive amount by Virgin, but subsequently refunded it.

 

[trebor79]

Well given that the connection in London is via foot, and the trains into and out of London to and from home are unrestricted, it's a funny one.
I can see the logic in TOCs getting annoyed in someone travels short on a single leg journey or one where connections are at the same station, and all legs are restricted to specific trains. I can see there s an argument you've used capacity that could/should have been sold for a higher price.
But where I have a ticket with unrestricted trains to and from London from home , and choose not to use the 'restricted to a specific train from a different terminus' to the ultimate destination I can't see any losers?

Is it fundamentally any different to buying a season ticket from Exeter St David's to Exeter Central, a journey I'll never make, in order to obtain a Gold Card? I haven't done that because I don't travel by train enough to make it worthwhile. But if I did, I would.

 

[trebor79]

see the thread in the disputes page about a father who did the same as you and was charged an excessive amount by Virgin, but subsequently refunded it.

Have you got a link to the thread? I think you have to be extraordinarily careless to get caught (catch the homeward train before the booked train from Station X has arrived, for example).

 

[Joe Paxton]

The official view is that it is disallowed as it can cause problems with money being absolved due to getting a cheaper longer distance ticket as opposed to paying the (potentially) higher fare of the shorter journey. As others have noted, it is unfortunately hit or miss as to whether you will get caught out or not, and different staff members will enforce it differently too, and sadly, ti can depend on what kind of mood they're in and what kind of day they've had.
...

Erm, with a cross-London journey it's rather more miss than hit!

(Also, in the first sentence I think you mean 'abstracted' rather than 'absolved'.)

 

[trainophile]

I sometimes buy a stupidly cheap Standard Class Advance for longer journeys starting from A, changing at B and C, and terminating at D, and then buy a 1st Class ticket for B-C, using the original ticket for the bits at either end where there's no 1st Class anyway. Theoretically this is probably breaking the rules of the Advance, but no-one would ever find out.

 

[faddy]

Travelling on a London Midland Advance from Euston to Lime Street a couple of years ago, I asked the conductor/guard/train manager/whatever whether I'd be ok to get off at Liverpool South Parkway and got the distinct impression that he didn't have a clue as to why I thought there might be a problem.

 

[trainophile]

Travelling on a London Midland Advance from Euston to Lime Street a couple of years ago, I asked the conductor/guard/train manager/whatever whether I'd be ok to get off at Liverpool South Parkway and got the distinct impression that he didn't have a clue as to why I thought there might be a problem.

I've done that lots of times. The gates are usually open anyway, and no-one seems interested in looking at tickets. I did wonder if a ticket terminating at Lime Street would work the barriers at South Parkway but have never had to put it to the test as I just sail through the open gate.

 

[robbeech]

I've done that lots of times. The gates are usually open anyway, and no-one seems interested in looking at tickets. I did wonder if a ticket terminating at Lime Street would work the barriers at South Parkway but have never had to put it to the test as I just sail through the open gate.

A walk up ticket ought to, an advance not too sure.

 

[faddy]

A walk up ticket ought to, an advance not too sure.

Would a walk up ticket operate the barriers anywhere on the route, and at South Parkway would it be returned to you?

 

[faddy]

Incidentally on Virgin's Twitter feed I've just seen someone told that starting at Stockport with a Manchester -> London Advance is fine.

 

[yorkie]

Incidentally on Virgin's Twitter feed I've just seen someone told that starting at Stockport with a Manchester -> London Advance is fine.

That is in line with the rail industry's policy not to charge people an excess fare and to allow travel, where the fare would not be any cheaper.

 

[faddy]

That is in line with the rail industry's policy not to charge people an excess fare and to allow travel, where the fare would not be any cheaper.

So in this example an Advance from Manchester is never offered for sale at a lower price than an Advance from Stockport on sale at the same time? As opposed to the e.g. I've read in these forums of Advances from Wirral stations to London via Liverpool sometimes being cheaper than Advances from Liverpool?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Incidentally on Virgin's Twitter feed I've just seen someone told that starting at Stockport with a Manchester -> London Advance is fine.

Leaving the policy as described above by Yorkie aside, that just seems like an entirely reasonable thing to me, for two reasons:

(1) Passengers with rail tickets want to travel by train, not replacement bus or coach - starting or finishing their journey at the station where the train journey itself starts (or finishes) rather than taking a RRB they don't want to seems totally acceptable;

(2) It would be impossible, or at least incredibly difficult, to police a policy that insisted on people transferring between train and RRB.

 

[faddy]

Leaving the policy as described above by Yorkie aside, that just seems like an entirely reasonable thing to me, for two reasons:

(1) Passengers with rail tickets want to travel by train, not replacement bus or coach - starting or finishing their journey at the station where the train journey itself starts (or finishes) rather than taking a RRB they don't want to seems totally acceptable;

(2) It would be impossible, or at least incredibly difficult, to police a policy that insisted on people transferring between train and RRB.

Well yes, except there isn't an RRB service between Manchester and Stockport.....is there? (Though the passenger enquiring on Twitter hadn't specified when they were travelling)

 

[yorkie]

As opposed to the e.g. I've read in these forums of Advances from Wirral stations to London via Liverpool sometimes being cheaper than Advances from Liverpool?

I don't recall reading that. It would surely be a mistake. Perhaps the VT Only fares were accidentally priced higher than the & Connections fares. If it happens again I would be interested to hear of this. Details and screenshots would be helpful.

 

[faddy]

I don't recall reading that. It would surely be a mistake. Perhaps the VT Only fares were accidentally priced higher than the & Connections fares. If it happens again I would be interested to hear of this. Details and screenshots would be helpful.

I may well be misremembering. Could it rather have been a quota issue - Advances from a Wirral station remaining available after they'd all gone for Liverpool departures? (I realise in suggesting that I may be betraying a complete misunderstanding of how Advances are sold)

 

[yorkie]

Quotas for each Advance tier are on a per train basis.

Without the details of your example I can only assume it was a mistake in that case.

There are loads of other occasions when it is cheaper to go further, many of these do involve Advance tickets, which may be priced by different companies and/or assuming different routes. Nothing much can be done to avoid that.

 

[faddy]

Without the details of your example I can only assume it was a mistake in that case.

I suspect it was this thread, post #30 https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lack-of-ticket-on-departure-on-merseyrail.149191/

 

[RJ]

I don't advocate the illegitimate abuse of &Connections Advance tickets in any way. Even if there are question marks over enforcability I don't think it's something this forum should be seen to be encouraging.

Over in the airline world we've fairly recently seen British Airways quite happily hike the points cost of connecting flights for journeys via Heathrow, much to the chagrin of those who don't live in London. The railways could do similar and raise the price of connecting legs in a variety of ways.

I don't recall reading that. It would surely be a mistake. Perhaps the VT Only fares were accidentally priced higher than the & Connections fares. If it happens again I would be interested to hear of this. Details and screenshots would be helpful.

I've found this to be the case with VWC in the past and have go-to examples filed away in the "may be useful one day" category.

 

[faddy]

I don't advocate the illegitimate abuse of &Connections Advance tickets in any way. Even if there are question marks over enforcability I don't think it's something this forum should be seen to be encouraging.

Over in the airline world we've fairly recently seen British Airways quite happily hike the points cost of connecting flights for journeys via Heathrow, much to the chagrin of those who don't live in London. The railways could do similar and raise the price of connecting legs in a variety of ways.



I've found this to be the case with VWC in the past and have go-to examples filed away in the "may be useful one day" category.

"may be useful one day" for something that isn't "illegitimate abuse"?

 

[yorkie]

I very much doubt Virgin intend for & Connections fares from the Wirral to be cheaper than tickets for just Liverpool to London, so it sounds like a mistake.

In fact Virgin were recently selling tickets from their on site at a much higher price than the Virgin East Coast site, for the exact same journey.This was not deliberate but was a result of changes to the advance tiers; one site was using the new data and the other was using old data.

 

[RJ]

"may be useful one day" for something that isn't "illegitimate abuse"?

I stumbled upon it one day by accident. A relative with a Freedom Pass asked for advice on the cheapest ticket from London to Manchester. By chance I discovered that the Advance fare from their starting station (within the Freedom Pass area) was actually cheaper than the Advance from London Terminals. It's knowledge that may well come in useful one day should I ever want an Advance on that route. I can travel from a convenient station in the same cluster, even if it means I'm doubly valid.

There are lots of fares and recurring themes that may come in useful one day - none of which are illegitimate. I'm very happy to share them with people who actually need them to make a saving on a specific journey like the example above.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Two or three years ago, wasn't somebody once charged a huge amount of money for getting off at Darlington with a London - Durham advance ticket? I think he had to pay the full London - Darlington anytime fare. In my view, the appropriate penalty should have been the Durham - Darlington fare, which he would have had to pay had he stayed on board and doubled back at Durham.