Video: British double-decker carriages... in 1949!

[jamesontheroad]

And you thought our gauges were too tight for double-deck trains. Footage from the British Pathé archive:


http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=47988

and info on the Bulleid Double Decker society...


http://dart75.tripod.com/bdds.htm

Perhaps an aspiration for a 21st century double deck train in the UK?

 

[Fincra5]

Yh but they found it never worked. it took too long to load passengers and the upstairs got very hot.

The british loading gauge means that double decker trains aren't possible on existing routes. However on the proposed High Speed 2 it may be, if they make the tunnels taller.

 

[asylumxl]

We have air conditioning nowadays.

 

[90019]

The 4DDs proved to be impractical, so they didn't go any further than the two prototype units. I believe there are two driving cars preserved.

 

[monkey]

...still looks interesting though. I'm sure there must be a way now of producing a double deck train light enough to operate on existing track??

 

[Daimler]

Only Bulleid would have been so adventurous!

Yh but they found it never worked. it took too long to load passengers and the upstairs got very hot.

The british loading gauge means that double decker trains aren't possible on existing routes. However on the proposed High Speed 2 it may be, if they make the tunnels taller.

I keep reading about things like this, talking about making use of the increased loading gauge on any new line. While it's a nice idea in theory, it means that any journey where high-speed stock goes onto the 'classic' lines is impossible, and therefore the trains' versatility is fundamentally compromised - this is worrying.

Still, one positive from my point of view is that Alstom haven't so far been able to fit distributed power into a double-deck train (explaining why the AGV is only single deck), and therefore locomotives at each end (like the TgV Duplex) would be obligatory (at present)!

 

[jamesontheroad]

Here are two remarkable 360º pictures of the interior of the split level CityNightLine sleeper cares that are in service on some routes. Another interesting variation on the simple double decker train: the corridor is at platform level down one side of the carriage, with short flights of steps up or down to upper and lower level sleeping compartments:

Upper compartment: http://homepage.mac.com/wkaemena/FS/EuropeTrains/CNLDay/

Corridor view: http://homepage.mac.com/wkaemena/FS/EuropeTrains/CNLSleepingCar/

 

[MCR247]

The second link is broken

 

[jamesontheroad]

The second link is broken

Fixed. Thanks for the heads-up.

 

[starrymarkb]

All new construction on the rail network is to Bern Gauge (except platforms) and has been for some time now - HS1 and HS2 will be Bern Gauge and to UIC spec (which raises the question of where to put 400m platforms in our cities)

 

[monkey]

Here are two remarkable 360º pictures of the interior of the split level CityNightLine sleeper cares that are in service on some routes. Another interesting variation on the simple double decker train: the corridor is at platform level down one side of the carriage, with short flights of steps up or down to upper and lower level sleeping compartments:

Upper compartment: http://homepage.mac.com/wkaemena/FS/EuropeTrains/CNLDay/

Corridor view: http://homepage.mac.com/wkaemena/FS/EuropeTrains/CNLSleepingCar/

...that's interesting cos heard DB were in talks with the gov about operating sleepers through the chunnel, as lcr and eurostar are all gonna be split and sold, so to open it up to competition...

 

[j0hn0]

All new construction on the rail network is to Bern Gauge (except platforms) and has been for some time now - HS1 and HS2 will be Bern Gauge and to UIC spec (which raises the question of where to put 400m platforms in our cities)

which also means that if we have double deck trains on HS2 and 1, the stations need to be brand new because I'm guessing place like Euston and New Street will not be able to tak berne gauge trains
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Only Bulleid would have been so adventurous!



I keep reading about things like this, talking about making use of the increased loading gauge on any new line. While it's a nice idea in theory, it means that any journey where high-speed stock goes onto the 'classic' lines is impossible, and therefore the trains' versatility is fundamentally compromised - this is worrying.

Still, one positive from my point of view is that Alstom haven't so far been able to fit distributed power into a double-deck train (explaining why the AGV is only single deck), and therefore locomotives at each end (like the TgV Duplex) would be obligatory (at present)!

But.....

They have built powered, articulated bogies + non powered, double deck bogies and dont forget APT had tilting articulated bogies.

I'm sure its just a matter of time.

Notice on that video though that the floor is still the same height. As ive said many times, why not lower the floor? I'm sure that design could be improved and usable on UK networks

 

[jamesontheroad]

Notice on that video though that the floor is still the same height. As ive said many times, why not lower the floor? I'm sure that design could be improved and usable on UK networks

I think there could be a UK-specific double decker that is a hybrid of the 1949 Bulleid design and the continental stock. I did some doodles while I was trying to work out how the Bulleid one worked, but without hard and fast dimensions it's a bit pointless speculating.

For a truly odd bi-level car, have a look at these North American gallery cars:

2+2 seating downstairs, and 1+1 seating (with individual balcony access above! The design was to add more seats but to allow the ticket inspector to check high and low level tickets at the same time (in some older trains the design included a clip rail on the balcony for high level passengers to leave their tickets for checking).

 

[j0hn0]

cool, would probably get a few decent "upskirts" from that vantage point too!

I have a few sketches at home myself when I was bored. I'll upload them to this thread sometime at the weekend.

I think the max height in the UK is 12ft 3in from the rail, which means that an overlap would have to take place at some point. My idea was to have the top deck as normal with the aisle in the centre and 2+2 either side, then the lower deck would have the aisle to the right (or left for alternating the weight distribution) with seats setup as 6 in compartment.

Would probably have to duck when sitting down, but that happens in most trains today anyway, and on buses.

More later .....

 

[yorksrob]

Yh but they found it never worked. it took too long to load passengers and the upstairs got very hot.

The british loading gauge means that double decker trains aren't possible on existing routes. However on the proposed High Speed 2 it may be, if they make the tunnels taller.

They decided to extend from eight to ten carriages on the Dartford lines and give every ten to twelve passengers their own door instead. It was a good experiment though. Worthwhile trying out.

 

[Danielo]

And you thought our gauges were too tight for double-deck trains. Footage from the British Pathé archive:


http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=47988

and info on the Bulleid Double Decker society...


http://dart75.tripod.com/bdds.htm

Perhaps an aspiration for a 21st century double deck train in the UK?

Thanks for the post. Really enjoyed browsing the site!

 

[whoosh]

I think there could be a UK-specific double decker that is a hybrid of the 1949 Bulleid design and the continental stock. I did some doodles while I was trying to work out how the Bulleid one worked, but without hard and fast dimensions it's a bit pointless speculating.

There's a cutaway pic on this page: http://www.bulleidlocos.org.uk/_oth/4_dd.aspx, and also here: http://dart75.tripod.com/bddscut.htm where there are dimensions too.

Basically each exterior door on the sides of the train gave access to one lower, and one upper level compartment, except the centremost door in the carriage which only had access to a single lower level compartment. I seem to recall reading some time ago that the train was apparently unpopular due to the lower level compartments being claustrophobic, with the seating for the upper level intruding on the headroom of the lower level seating; lack of ventilation for the upper level compartments; lack of luggage space for both levels; and for having extended dwell times at stations due to a lot more people using about the same number of doors as a conventional train.

 

[poshbakerloo]

Yeah I saw these double deck trains before...A good idea, but it didn't work out. I'm though now it could be done, with Air conditioning and a better layout. They could build them with lower ground floors.

I think the top deck would just be the same as a tube train...