Arriva Rail North DOO

[Eccles1983]

It is that kind of attitude that makes me glad the Tories destroyed the backbone of working class culture and union power in the 80s. I have been brought up in a country with much more freedom of choice and expression because of that. The Tories certainly should have helped new industries grow but I have no sympathy that the unions lost the miners strike etc, one bunch of bastards got screwed by another bunch of bastards. Are there really many people who are that narrow minded and confirmist that they will ban people from pubs because their relatives crossed a picket line?! If drivers or guards decide DOO is not worth striking over and cross picket lines they would be best moving away from Royston Vasey and to somewhere that has entered the 21st century!

P.S. I am a northerner who supports Northern guards striking over DOO. I guess to the knuckle draggers down the pub moaning about the smoking ban, immigrants and the ffing Tories I am not a true Northerner!

Fantastic irrational and bizzare effort at missing the point, and also woeful stereotyping.

The tories who you openly admit to admiring for crushing democratic working groups havent got there with my union.

You cant wish it all you want. But a scab is a scab - and the label alone is enough for most to decide to abandon selfish individualism and act as a collective.

I pity all you who seem agahst that a group of colleagues wont entertain the systematic removal of a grade because the goverment thinks its a good idea to save money.

Maybe if more people acted as a collective, dare I say it more power would lie in the hands of the workers.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Yay. Civilised conversation reduced back to scab this scab that. Scab scab scab scab scab.

 

[northwichcat]

Some years ago a chap in my office was telling us about a guy who went back to work during the 1926 General Strike and some 50 years on he was still ignored in the local Working Mens Club

Don't forget the 1926 strike was against people having their pay cut and being expected to work longer hours at the same time. At that time it must have been unthinkable that there would be a strike against an employer who'd offered their employees guaranteed employment for at least 8 years and annual pay reviews where their pay can only go up in a world where employers can't just increase their employee's hours without their approval.

 

[Tractor2018]

Don't forget the 1926 strike was against people having their pay cut and being expected to work longer hours at the same time. At that time it must have been unthinkable that there would be a strike against an employer who'd offered their employees guaranteed employment for at least 8 years and annual pay reviews where their pay can only go up in a world where employers can't just increase their employee's hours without their approval.

Summed up nicely.

If you're not already in the industry, please stay out of it - you'll only make it harder for people to improve their working conditions (my god, the horror of the very notion!).

Please stay in your present frame of mind and enjoy your race to the bottom.

If you are in the industry, god help us all.

Edit: having read several pages back, I sympathise with your employment situation. That doesn't change my view, however, that people IN employment should seek to improve their conditions by any legal means possible. I don't think that's unreasonable. Maybe I'm out of touch with reality; if I am I'm glad for being out of touch - but also sad for the world. I hope you find suitable employment soon, that pays you what you think you're worth - not what other people tell you you're worth.

 

[Chester1]

Yay. Civilised conversation reduced back to scab this scab that. Scab scab scab scab scab.

It comes across as incredibly narrow minded. Its basically shunning people for not following the crowd regardless of their reasons for doing it. If someone doesn't like someone for not joining the union or choosing not to strike because they don't believe in the reason for striking then I wonder what they think about people of different cultures and lifestyles?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Edit: having read several pages back, I sympathise with your employment situation. That doesn't change my view, however, that people IN employment should seek to improve their conditions by any legal means possible.

Why? What if they're satisfied with them, and believe they are realistically a reasonable offering based on the realities of the market?

While I wouldn't turn a pay rise down (who would?) I would say that is my view about my current employment. I see no reason to want to fight for or change my working conditions, they're fine as they are.

 

[Tractor2018]

Why? What if they're satisfied with them, and believe they are realistically a reasonable offering based on the realities of the market?

While I wouldn't turn a pay rise down (who would?) I would say that is my view about my current employment. I see no reason to want to fight for or change my working conditions, they're fine as they are.

Ok. As you say - as long as you're happy. Like I said, it's my view.

 

[Carlisle]

Why? What if they're satisfied with them, and believe they are realistically a reasonable offering based on the realities of the market?

While I wouldn't turn a pay rise down (who would?) I would say that is my view about my current employment. I see no reason to want to fight for or change my working conditions, they're fine as they are.

I’ve a book somewhere about BR written around 1981 by a former manager Colin Boocock, one chapter highlights serious dismay about the high number of strikes involving train crew compared to very few involving staff at maintenance facilities, so its quite possible lessons could have been learned years ago if the will had been there .

 

[ComUtoR]

While I wouldn't turn a pay rise down (who would?) I would say that is my view about my current employment. I see no reason to want to fight for or change my working conditions, they're fine as they are.

I'm lucky and I am fully aware of that. I was never as lucky as I am today.

I have friends; shockingly so... and a few of them have had to deal with pay freezes for the past few years. Whist they may be happy with their pay and conditions and happy with the status quo; they suffered. Inflation goes up as well as your bills and various costs etc but your pay stays the same. Without a basic cost of living rise your wages you are taking a pay cut 'in real terms'

This also has a detriment to employment. If you are looking for work or may be out of work, you tend to look for employment that can meet your expectations. You need something that can cover your living costs and you need to choose an employer who has a decent employment history. Where there is choice available you would choose the higher wage. If employers do not keep a good level of wages then they cannot incentivize new employees.

It's not even just about money either. Having the same clauses in your contract year on year doesn't improve the workplace. It stagnates it. Changes in the workplace can help improve productivity, employee health, grow the business, etc. I remember one employment I was in where you were not allowed to leave the building when you were on a break. It was depressing and demoralizing. A simple change to allow staff to nip out on their break made a huge difference.

You also need to consider modern working practices. Both employees and employees need to move forward and to do that you need to make changes to terms and conditions. The status quo cannot last forever. Irrespective of being happy with them or not they may need to change to meet a specific business, legal, or employee requirement.

Change isn't always good and I'm glad, and very lucky, that the Unions are there to drive employment conditions and practices firmly forward.

 

[HH]

I’ve a book somewhere about BR written around 1981 by a former manager Colin Boocock, one chapter highlights serious dismay about the high number of strikes involving train crew compared to very few involving staff at maintenance facilities, so its quite possible lessons could have been learned years ago if the will had been there .

The working life is quite different and is likely to attract different personalities - it may simply be down to that.

P.S. One of the problems with the railways (and always has been) is that lessons do get learnt, but then they get forgotten again!

 

[LOL The Irony]

It comes across as incredibly narrow minded. Its basically shunning people for not following the crowd regardless of their reasons for doing it. If someone doesn't like someone for not joining the union or choosing not to strike because they don't believe in the reason for striking then I wonder what they think about people of different cultures and lifestyles?

Amen. I'd hate to know what they think about people who are anti this strike.

 

[furnessvale]

Yay. Civilised conversation reduced back to scab this scab that. Scab scab scab scab scab.

Given that a scab protects a festering sore, stopping infection and the eventual death of the body, perhaps it is meant as a compliment.

 

[northwichcat]

Summed up nicely.

If you're not already in the industry, please stay out of it - you'll only make it harder for people to improve their working conditions (my god, the horror of the very notion!).

Please stay in your present frame of mind and enjoy your race to the bottom.

If you are in the industry, god help us all.

Edit: having read several pages back, I sympathise with your employment situation. That doesn't change my view, however, that people IN employment should seek to improve their conditions by any legal means possible. I don't think that's unreasonable. Maybe I'm out of touch with reality; if I am I'm glad for being out of touch - but also sad for the world. I hope you find suitable employment soon, that pays you what you think you're worth - not what other people tell you you're worth.

Race to the bottom - the term union members use when they can't make justifiable arguments. If you want to be taken seriously perhaps use more verifiable claims like the stalling or slowing down of the race to improve pay and conditions. To anyone who isn't a far left union member the 'race to the bottom' term sounds worse than some of what top level management say which everyone knows is a blatant lie.

Want me to stay out of it? Then stop disrupting my train service until the RMT commission independent consultations to assess the safety of Northern's DCO plans. Oh yes the dispute isn't primarily about safety (that's a RMT lie) so whatever such a report says it wouldn't end the dispute.

Anyway my point was this dispute is nothing compared to the 1926 strike, I doubt anyone in 90 years time will be talking about the Northern dispute. Even now it's a minor story as far as the media are concerned, it's not even as big as some of the other employment related news stories, never mind Brexit which is overshadowing most things.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Given that a scab protects a festering sore, stopping infection and the eventual death of the body, perhaps it is meant as a compliment.

Yeah

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm lucky and I am fully aware of that. I was never as lucky as I am today.

I have friends; shockingly so... and a few of them have had to deal with pay freezes for the past few years. Whist they may be happy with their pay and conditions and happy with the status quo; they suffered. Inflation goes up as well as your bills and various costs etc but your pay stays the same. Without a basic cost of living rise your wages you are taking a pay cut 'in real terms'

This also has a detriment to employment. If you are looking for work or may be out of work, you tend to look for employment that can meet your expectations. You need something that can cover your living costs and you need to choose an employer who has a decent employment history. Where there is choice available you would choose the higher wage. If employers do not keep a good level of wages then they cannot incentivize new employees.

It's not even just about money either. Having the same clauses in your contract year on year doesn't improve the workplace. It stagnates it. Changes in the workplace can help improve productivity, employee health, grow the business, etc. I remember one employment I was in where you were not allowed to leave the building when you were on a break. It was depressing and demoralizing. A simple change to allow staff to nip out on their break made a huge difference.

You also need to consider modern working practices. Both employees and employees need to move forward and to do that you need to make changes to terms and conditions. The status quo cannot last forever. Irrespective of being happy with them or not they may need to change to meet a specific business, legal, or employee requirement.

Change isn't always good and I'm glad, and very lucky, that the Unions are there to drive employment conditions and practices firmly forward.

That's all fine as long as those unions drive matters forward. In some circumstances it may appear that they are far happier to avoid change (unless there's more money involved).

 

[ComUtoR]

That's all fine as long as those unions drive matters forward. In some circumstances it may appear that they are far happier to avoid change (unless there's more money involved).

I would agree.

The importance is that there needs to be an element of employee protection. Change for the worse is what needs protection. There are those among us that would firmly believe that employees should put up and shut up but if they were faced with a 50% pay cut I am sure they would do neither. It also protects employee rights. Again a put up or shut up attitude goes very much against the workforce. It allows employers to use 'sharp practices' or unfair terms and conditions. There is a lot of backlash against 'zero hour contracts' imagine if yours or anyone's employment was suddenly forced onto zero hours. Would you put up and shut up ?

I've been on both sides of the table. I wish there was a Union who fought against me or employees who stood up for what was right when I did one of the worst things I ever did as a Manager.

Regardless of the vitriol aimed at the Unions and many others who have fought for the employee over the years. I truly do not believe we would be where we are today if it wasn't for them. A historical example would be the 1968 Ford strike and a modern example would be the Uber case. Unions or otherwise. Anyone who fights for their rights or pushes for improved employment conditions has my respect and support. Taxi Drivers, NHS workers, Firefighters, Teachers, Students, just to name a recent few.

 

[northwichcat]

Regardless of the vitriol aimed at the Unions and many others who have fought for the employee over the years. I truly do not believe we would be where we are today if it wasn't for them. A historical example would be the 1968 Ford strike and a modern example would be the Uber case. Unions or otherwise. Anyone who fights for their rights or pushes for improved employment conditions has my respect and support. Taxi Drivers, NHS workers, Firefighters, Teachers, Students, just to name a recent few.

Ironically cases like Uber and Hermes came about because of how much employment rights for employees have improved. If Uber and Hermes drivers had been given employment contracts they would have automatically received a number of benefits which they didn't get by being taken on as self-employed drivers.

 

[Robertj21a]

I would agree.

The importance is that there needs to be an element of employee protection. Change for the worse is what needs protection. There are those among us that would firmly believe that employees should put up and shut up but if they were faced with a 50% pay cut I am sure they would do neither. It also protects employee rights. Again a put up or shut up attitude goes very much against the workforce. It allows employers to use 'sharp practices' or unfair terms and conditions. There is a lot of backlash against 'zero hour contracts' imagine if yours or anyone's employment was suddenly forced onto zero hours. Would you put up and shut up ?

I've been on both sides of the table. I wish there was a Union who fought against me or employees who stood up for what was right when I did one of the worst things I ever did as a Manager.

Regardless of the vitriol aimed at the Unions and many others who have fought for the employee over the years. I truly do not believe we would be where we are today if it wasn't for them. A historical example would be the 1968 Ford strike and a modern example would be the Uber case. Unions or otherwise. Anyone who fights for their rights or pushes for improved employment conditions has my respect and support. Taxi Drivers, NHS workers, Firefighters, Teachers, Students, just to name a recent few.

I would agree.

The importance is that there needs to be an element of employee protection. Change for the worse is what needs protection. There are those among us that would firmly believe that employees should put up and shut up but if they were faced with a 50% pay cut I am sure they would do neither. It also protects employee rights. Again a put up or shut up attitude goes very much against the workforce. It allows employers to use 'sharp practices' or unfair terms and conditions. There is a lot of backlash against 'zero hour contracts' imagine if yours or anyone's employment was suddenly forced onto zero hours. Would you put up and shut up ?

I've been on both sides of the table. I wish there was a Union who fought against me or employees who stood up for what was right when I did one of the worst things I ever did as a Manager.

Regardless of the vitriol aimed at the Unions and many others who have fought for the employee over the years. I truly do not believe we would be where we are today if it wasn't for them. A historical example would be the 1968 Ford strike and a modern example would be the Uber case. Unions or otherwise. Anyone who fights for their rights or pushes for improved employment conditions has my respect and support. Taxi Drivers, NHS workers, Firefighters, Teachers, Students, just to name a recent few.

No problem with those Unions who protect and help their members - as long as they are prepared to be forward looking and happy to work with the management in achieving an efficient operation. That seems to be where some can be unco-operative.

 

[185143]

I could say many more don't, but it's an impossible thing for either us to say. I'd agree with Eccles1983 though. A scab is not the sort of person I'd want anything to do with. Thry directly harm the cause youre fighting for.

Indeed. Managers working trains is bad enough-but for a guard in ecactly the same postion as everyone else to work trains, they are literally digging their own grave...

I was on a train one time (member of the public speaking here-I'm nothing to do with the industry (yet)) and I heard the guard telling someone he'd crossed the picket line as 'we're not going to win anyway, what's the point.' I won't name the TOC but it wasn't Northern. I got off at the next stop in disgust and solidarity with the rest of the guards. I haven't boarded his train since...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was on a train one time (member of the public speaking here-I'm nothing to do with the industry (yet)) and I heard the guard telling someone he'd crossed the picket line as 'we're not going to win anyway, what's the point.' I won't name the TOC but it wasn't Northern. I got off at the next stop in disgust and solidarity with the rest of the guards. I haven't boarded his train since...

I must admit I think your attitude is right off with that one. Surely what you should do is sell your and the Union's side to him and make him feel more supported so he feels stronger to take the Union's side. Villifying him because he's perhaps a bit depressed and cynical about the whole thing (and possibly unable to afford the financial loss) is, I'm afraid, bullying.

That's not a "scab" (much as I really disagree with the use of that term to villify people who simply don't agree with a strike, it's used to describe people with a much more wilful attitude), that's someone who needs more help - someone who is being failed by the Union and its other members.

 

[northwichcat]

I was on a train one time (member of the public speaking here-I'm nothing to do with the industry (yet)) and I heard the guard telling someone he'd crossed the picket line as 'we're not going to win anyway, what's the point.' I won't name the TOC but it wasn't Northern. I got off at the next stop in disgust and solidarity with the rest of the guards. I haven't boarded his train since...

But you could still be travelling on trains worked by other crews who crossed the picket lines without knowing it and unless you board at a station without ticketing facilities he doesn't lose out if you travel on someone else's train and neither does the TOC. In fact if he works a very packed train and you refuse to travel on his train you're making his job easier and possibly another guard's job harder!

 

[Tractor2018]

Race to the bottom - the term union members use when they can't make justifiable arguments.

If you say so. Groan.........

If you want to be taken seriously

I've not got the need to be taken seriously or otherwise by you, your ilk, or anyone else. I roll my own way and it seems to work out for me.

Want me to stay out of it?

The industry, fella, the industry; not the discussion.

 

[Dave1987]

No problem with those Unions who protect and help their members - as long as they are prepared to be forward looking and happy to work with the management in achieving an efficient operation. That seems to be where some can be unco-operative.

Had to laugh when I read your post when you have claimed that changes elsewhere have lead to improvements and ‘happy staff’ when the reality is is that staff turnover has dramatically increased as staff get extremely annoyed by the new working practices. I don’t believe you have an ounce of respect for unions at all.

 

[northwichcat]

If you say so. Groan.........

'Race to the bottom' implies you are moving rapidly in the wrong direction e.g. being forced to accept a pay cut, having your hours reduced, losing your job and having to accept a new one that pays significantly less etc.

Even public sectors workers who have been held back by a public sector pay cap and have seen their actual pay increase but their relative pay decrease aren't really racing to the bottom - they're moving in the right direction but not advancing quickly enough. While those who haven't seen any pay rise at all (not even 1%) are standing still and consequently getting left behind.

 

[Robertj21a]

Had to laugh when I read your post when you have claimed that changes elsewhere have lead to improvements and ‘happy staff’ when the reality is is that staff turnover has dramatically increased as staff get extremely annoyed by the new working practices. I don’t believe you have an ounce of respect for unions at all.

The only 'happy staff' sort of comment I can ever recall was some of the new OBS on Southern. As that was true I'm not sure what your point is ??
Unions need to earn respect. Most that I have worked with have been professional, sadly some don't appear to be.

 

[Tractor2018]

'Race to the bottom' implies you are moving rapidly in the wrong direction e.g. being forced to accept a pay cut, having your hours reduced, losing your job and having to accept a new one that pays significantly less etc.

Even public sectors workers who have been held back by a public sector pay cap and have seen their actual pay increase but their relative pay decrease aren't really racing to the bottom - they're moving in the right direction but not advancing quickly enough. While those who haven't seen any pay rise at all (not even 1%) are standing still and consequently getting left behind.

I don't know how many different ways I can put this.

I don't agree with what you're saying? You won't change my strongly held beliefs? I've wish you'd change yours, but I won't waste energy or time trying to make that happen? Continue the way you have been - in a failing country, with no job, where lots of people think the way you do.

I was sincere in wishing you good luck on the job front, I still am. I wouldn't wish unemployment on anyone.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know how many different ways I can put this.

I don't agree with what you're saying? You won't change my strongly held beliefs? I've wish you'd change yours, but I won't waste energy or time trying to make that happen? Continue the way you have been - in a failing country, with no job, where lots of people think the way do.

I strongly don't believe I should ignore the dictionary definitions of words so that a phrase which a union leader came up actually makes logical sense. That is why I'm saying public sector workers aren't moving forward quickly enough and consequently getting left behind, opposed to they are racing to the bottom. I also don't believe that your belief is there's a race to the bottom with guards at Northern, that's the belief of Mick Cash, your beliefs may be similar but if your talking about beliefs your own words would be much better and would make you sound more like a genuine individual rather than someone who's just a follower.

 

[driver_m]

• Bring out the word 'scab' and it's like kryptonite to some of the right-wingers who populate this board. I make no apologies for using it. If you are in a union and you go directly against it by working during action that the union members have democratically voted for, then you are directly harming it. In which case, leave the union if you don't want to be called a scab. It's like being a member of a political party, if you can't agree with some of its main views, then leave it if you can't accept that view, otherwise fall in.

 

[Robertj21a]

• Bring out the word 'scab' and it's like kryptonite to some of the right-wingers who populate this board. I make no apologies for using it. If you are in a union and you go directly against it by working during action that the union members have democratically voted for, then you are directly harming it. In which case, leave the union if you don't want to be called a scab. It's like being a member of a political party, if you can't agree with some of its main views, then leave it if you can't accept that view, otherwise fall in.

Fair enough. Personally, I wouldn't use the term as it's horribly old-fashioned and sounds much like immature kids in the playground.
I guess that, nowadays, people have more respect for the views of each individual than they did in the past.

 

[whitrope]

Most companies don't have a zero growth business plan and any that did wouldn't be around for long. In an ever evolving world its only right and proper for organisations to improve efficiency and profitability. However this should never in my opinion be done at the expense of those who actually do the work and if the company is improving its profitability then this should be shared across the board. And of course safety should never be put before profit and I have yet to hear of a compelling evidence based independent report which says DOO is safe in the 21st century.