Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[Gareth Marston]

There will be some refurbished trains "new" to Wales, I suspect. Just enough to say it's started...

I'm sure that will be the crack, try and pretend a couple of cascaded DMU's mean we're compliant and then make out its the new operators fault if too many questions are asked.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will be some refurbished trains "new" to Wales, I suspect. Just enough to say it's started...

769s, you mean?

 

[CardiffKid]

But new trains ordered and arriving by 1st Jan 2020?

Unless an order is already in (in secret by the govt) I can't see them being done in time.

The class 769 were announced as being ordered last July (and you can bet there had been months of work done before that), the first one won't now arrive until September at the earliest.

 

[gareth950]

But new trains ordered and arriving by 1st Jan 2020?

Unless an order is already in (in secret by the govt) I can't see them being done in time.

The class 769 were announced as being ordered last July (and you can bet there had been months of work done before that), the first one won't now arrive until September at the earliest.

And Arriva put up £1 million of the money needed towards the 769s for what, 1 month in service with ATW? Arriva must now be disputing that £1 million with Welsh Govt.

 

[td97]

Abellio GA have stated that their BMMUs will be the first units to arrive - which will replace 156 (x9), 153 (x5) and 170 (x12) in 2019.

An agreement such as the 12 170s to Northern (for fleet standardisation), and 12 of Northern's 156 or 158s to Wales would provide a total of 21 units. The 5x 769 is the equivalent of 10 2-car units, effectively providing 31 'new to Wales' units, so this could be an option to replace the Pacers.

As for PRM-ing the current 15x fleet, Northern's off-lease Pacers and 153s could stand in until the end of 2019?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Abellio GA have stated that their BMMUs will be the first units to arrive - which will replace 156 (x9), 153 (x5) and 170 (x12) in 2019.

An agreement such as the 12 170s to Northern (for fleet standardisation), and 12 of Northern's 156 or 158s to Wales would provide a total of 21 units. The 5x 769 is the equivalent of 10 2-car units, effectively providing 31 'new to Wales' units, so this could be an option to replace the Pacers.

As for PRM-ing the current 15x fleet, Northern's off-lease Pacers and 153s could stand in until the end of 2019?

The 769's are needed to let 150's and 158's be prom modified so only a small net gain. 156's ok theory stacks up. However you'll have a lot of drivers to retrain on them and are they capable of being cleared to run anywhere in the valleys? A
So what do you a fleet of 21 156's in the long term?

 

[gareth950]

Bare in mind that anything longer than 20m carriage length is banned north of Radyr. Which makes the only current DMUs suitable for the Central - Treherbert, Bridgend - Aberdare and Barry Island - Merthyr Tydfil routes 150/2s or Pacers.

 

[PHILIPE]

Bare in mind that anything longer than 20m carriage length is banned north of Radyr. Which makes the only current DMUs suitable for the Central - Treherbert, Bridgend - Aberdare and Barry Island - Merthyr Tydfil routes 150/2s or Pacers.

[

153s can and do work to Barry Island but they are a dying breed now. Anything can work to Bridgend via VOG and 158s can work and have had booked work to Barry Island in the past.

 

[Parallel]

Are vehicles longer than 20m permitted north of Heath High Level?

 

[PHILIPE]

Are vehicles longer than 20m permitted north of Heath High Level?

Yes. 158s had booked work to Rhymney in the early 2000s.

 

[krus_aragon]

Are vehicles longer than 20m permitted north of Heath High Level?

Yes, 158s (for example) are cleared to go all the way to Rhymney. It's just the Taff Vale route that's problematic.

 

[gareth950]

[

153s can and do work to Barry Island but they are a dying breed now. Anything can work to Bridgend via VOG and 158s can work and have had booked work to Barry Island in the past.

Yeh but whilst the Vale routes are paired with the Taff Vale routes that's unlikely to happen.

 

[krus_aragon]

Yeh but whilst the Vale routes are paired with the Taff Vale routes that's unlikely to happen.

Having not looked at the diagrams (and probably being too close to crayonista) one could consider sending most TV services to Penarth and Rhymney services to the Vale instead. That'd cut down on the number of 20m stock diagrams needed.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Bare in mind that anything longer than 20m carriage length is banned north of Radyr.

Excuse my ignorance, but why is that?

 

[PHILIPE]

Excuse my ignorance, but why is that?

Platform clearances

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Platform clearances

Oh, thanks...as simple as that!

 

[Parallel]

Platform clearances

Would there be a lot of work to clear stock over 20m on the lines? Or would it just be a few stations?

 

[HH]

But new trains ordered and arriving by 1st Jan 2020?

Unless an order is already in (in secret by the govt) I can't see them being done in time.

The class 769 were announced as being ordered last July (and you can bet there had been months of work done before that), the first one won't now arrive until September at the earliest.

There is no secret order - you couldn't keep that secret for so long; I think TfW are already risking the franchise winner's name creeping out due to the long time between decision and announcement.

There will not be new, new trains before Jan 2020. You will see some refurbished stock of various persuasions (some surprises I suspect), such that Pacers will hopefully disappear by that date. New trains will start to appear the second half of 2021 - as they will undoubtedly be new designs you should allow 3 years from order until the first unit is delivered.

 

[47802]

There is no secret order - you couldn't keep that secret for so long; I think TfW are already risking the franchise winner's name creeping out due to the long time between decision and announcement.

There will not be new, new trains before Jan 2020. You will see some refurbished stock of various persuasions (some surprises I suspect), such that Pacers will hopefully disappear by that date. New trains will start to appear the second half of 2021 - as they will undoubtedly be new designs you should allow 3 years from order until the first unit is delivered.

Really from where? I wouldn't put any money on Anglia being able to release their DMU's in 2019, given the usual teething problems with new trains etc. and of course the Flirt trains are somewhat radical from a UK perspective. Its clear from Shooters recent speech on the D230 thread that non of the Welsh bidders are interested in D230's, so I think locking the bogs out on Pacers seems the likely option, until new DMU's and Trams arrive from CAF

 

[Bletchleyite]

The FLIRTs may well be UK-new, but they aren't new technology - they're just a scaled down Euro-FLIRT. Stadler's modular concept means that building the same train in a different bodyshell isn't a completely new train, unlike say the Euro-Desiro which is a completely different train from the Desiro UK.

I'm not putting money on it, but I reckon they may prove to be the smoothest introduction so far, unless something like signalling interference causes issues.

 

[47802]

The FLIRTs may well be UK-new, but they aren't new technology - they're just a scaled down Euro-FLIRT. Stadler's modular concept means that building the same train in a different bodyshell isn't a completely new train, unlike say the Euro-Desiro which is a completely different train from the Desiro UK.

I'm not putting money on it, but I reckon they may prove to be the smoothest introduction so far, unless something like signalling interference causes issues.

I never said they were new tech. but they are to the UK, and Stadler have to get everything in a somewhat smaller loading gauge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I never said they were new tech. but they are to the UK, and Stadler have to get everything in a somewhat smaller loading gauge.

But they haven't. Stadler cut their teeth on building for the Swiss narrow gauge lines - indeed it was in part for those that the GTW, the father of the FLIRT, was conceived. Trains for those lines are roughly UK sized (though a more square shape).

 

[47802]

But they haven't. Stadler cut their teeth on building for the Swiss narrow gauge lines - indeed it was in part for those that the GTW, the father of the FLIRT, was conceived. Trains for those lines are roughly UK sized (though a more square shape).

But they are still going to need to be extensively tested on both Electric and Diesel Stadler are new to the UK, don't they have a lower Diesel range than most DMU's so will need careful diagramming, especially if they start on existing DMU diagrams, will some station platforms need mods to cope with the lower floor design etc, I certainly don't think you can rely on the Anglia units being released by the end of 2019.

 

[Bletchleyite]

will some station platforms need mods to cope with the lower floor design etc

Depends on the loading gauge and the throw, but I suspect not substantially - the moving steps bridge any gap and stop when they touch something.

Of course they may choose to modify them to provide level boarding but that can be done in time.

 

[CardiffKid]

There is no secret order - you couldn't keep that secret for so long; I think TfW are already risking the franchise winner's name creeping out due to the long time between decision and announcement.

There will not be new, new trains before Jan 2020. You will see some refurbished stock of various persuasions (some surprises I suspect), such that Pacers will hopefully disappear by that date. New trains will start to appear the second half of 2021 - as they will undoubtedly be new designs you should allow 3 years from order until the first unit is delivered.

What refurbished stock do you think will arrive before 31st Dec 2019 or are you taking about ATW's existing 150s and 153s?

 

[Gareth Marston]

the only things that will definitely be spare by the end of 2019 are around a dozen TPE Class 185's

 

[Bletchleyite]

the only things that will definitely be spare by the end of 2019 are around a dozen TPE Class 185's

Using those on ATW express services temporarily could allow a cascade to allow the RVAR work to be done sooner, perhaps, ideally on services with Manchester at one end so they can still be maintained at Ardwick. Then send them to Northern Connect.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Using those on ATW express services temporarily could allow a cascade to allow the RVAR work to be done sooner, perhaps, ideally on services with Manchester at one end so they can still be maintained at Ardwick. Then send them to Northern Connect.

still very tight on numbers though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

the only things that will definitely be spare by the end of 2019 are around a dozen TPE Class 185's

You're presuming a smooth introduction for TPE's 3 types of new train in the next 18 months.
Plenty of risk there, and they are already running later than originally planned.
The 802s *should* have an easy ride considering they are clones of the GWR/HT ones, but TPE/NR has so far been silent about clearance for them west of Leeds.
185s are not cleared on ATW routes either.

 

[Gareth Marston]

You're presuming a smooth introduction for TPE's 3 types of new train in the next 18 months.
Plenty of risk there, and they are already running later than originally planned.
The 802s *should* have an easy ride considering they are clones of the GWR/HT ones, but TPE/NR has so far been silent about clearance for them west of Leeds.
185s are not cleared on ATW routes either.

Theirs no obvious "get of jail card" is there?- wheres my toilet key.....