Arriva Rail North DOO

[whitrope]

Surely the fundamental issue here is all about the number of safety trained people on a train and not who opens/closes the doors. If you pick a fight about who operates the doors then you will almost certainly lose as that precedent was set in the 1980's with Bedpan and Strathclyde Manning Agreement. If the argument is about safety on an increasingly busy railway, with more anti social behaviour and possible acts of terror than ever before your case becomes much stronger.
I don't care who operates the doors on my train but I do care about my safety, security and that of my fellow passengers. There is no clear argument for any extension to DOO/DCO/OPO or whatever else you call it other than financial. Until a clear evidence based case is made then the status quo should remain.

 

[LowLevel]

Isnt the guard responsible primarily for the passenger saloon, but trained to assist the driver on other matters if requested or required

Depends on the TOC. Where I am (which has no DOO-P and very little DOO-NP) the guard is firmly in charge. The wording in the training presentation for both grades is 'the guard is in charge of the train and the driver operates it to the guard's instructions'. The driver however has the primary responsibility for protecting the train in accordance with the rules if required for assistance or emergency.

In practice it's entirely a team effort and no decent driver or guard on a crew operated train makes any attempt at suggesting otherwise.

 

[Tractor2018]

No its not a contract change. Their contract will say they drive trains. Opening and closing doors is part of driving trains so not a change of contract.

My T&C's say I won't undertake any responsibilities core to the guard grade - when I was issued those T&C's opening and closing doors was core to a guard. I can't be forced to open and close doors without a change to my conditions, something that can't be forced on me.

Edit: that's not with Northern. It's just an example of how misplaced your thinking is, industry wide.

 

[74A]

You.really don't know how things work do you? Say me and my colleagues went on strike tomorrow and we all got sacked. Where do you get replacement drivers to cover us?, Where do you get drivers who have the correct route knowledge, where do you get drivers from who sign the traction? And how do you ensure you get them all signed off ready to do our work? Existing drivers, even if they were prepared to come in and take our jobs, would still need a few months to be fully trained. Brand new drivers would take well over a year. Plus you'd also need instructors and mentors who youve also just sacked. And those few driver managers who you need to do all that paperwork will be tied up trying to cover the skeleton service being ran. I'm not trying to make you look daft, but you have to ultimately co-operate, with your workforce, and imposing stuff on one side is just not going to work. Michael O'Leary thought he could do the same with his pilots and learnt the hard way that you can't. As jcollins has also said, you're mixing up your issues with that driver who refused to work the 12 car set and ASLEF getting took to court .That didn't happen in that incident .The key to all this co-operation. The unions and management know this, unfortunately the puppet master DfT doesn't have a clue as it currently reflects the clueless useless government that we have, and is behaving in the same way as O'Leary. It won't work .

You wouldn't all get sacked. How long will you go on strike for. Say a couple of days. Then you come back and the company tells some of you you are DOO training today. So what do you do ? Refuse and get send home no pay ? How long could you last before you would be forced to come back. And would all you colleagues be able to last as long as you. I am sure there are some with large debts who might only be able to last a few days and others up to a couple of months.

 

[whitrope]

I am sure if this approach was adopted by management then the hearts and minds of its front line traincrew would be lost forever.

 

[Eccles1983]

You wouldn't all get sacked. How long will you go on strike for. Say a couple of days. Then you come back and the company tells some of you you are DOO training today. So what do you do ? Refuse and get send home no pay ? How long could you last before you would be forced to come back. And would all you colleagues be able to last as long as you. I am sure there are some with large debts who might only be able to last a few days and others up to a couple of months.

You really have no idea.

Anyone breaking a strike would be an outcast. And as lonely as a job it can be you need colleagues for information, learning and general wellbeing after 5 hours in a chair listening to bells and horns.

So those that come back would be able to pay the bills, but it would be a miserable existance if they went against the majority.

 

[theblackwatch]

So those that come back would be able to pay the bills, but it would be a miserable existance if they went against the majority.

As would living in a cardboard box when your house was re-possessed.

Back to the topic, unless I've totally missed something, the drivers aren't even in dispute with ARN...

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Drivers aren’t in dispute with ARN at present I would however be surprised if once the new rolling stock is being delivered and the Guard issue comes to head they don’t take industrial action.

However I would imagine if a deal along the lines of the Southern agreement if not more extreme because the DOO precident isn’t there on Northern is discussed and agreed along with an understandable pay rise they would accept it. End of the day point blank refusing to carry out your job and the loss of income which goes with it isn’t worth it when ASLEF and it’s members are secure as Drivers.

 

[Eccles1983]

As would living in a cardboard box when your house was re-possessed.

Back to the topic, unless I've totally missed something, the drivers aren't even in dispute with ARN...

They arent. But will be before too long.

It's a guess but I assume not many of you live in the Northern area? I have done all my life and have seen how strike breakers or scabs are dealt with by local communities. Its a very dirty subject, and I would not subject myself to that on a matter of principle or my family to the stigma.

But then all you seem to know more than me about my contract, and colleagues.

 

[CN75]

However I would imagine if a deal along the lines of the Southern agreement if not more extreme because the DOO precident isn’t there on Northern is discussed and agreed along with an understandable pay rise they would accept it. End of the day point blank refusing to carry out your job and the loss of income which goes with it isn’t worth it when ASLEF and it’s members are secure as Drivers.

The difference is that Southern had long agreed that all the trains which had guards would continue to have them ‘rostered’. Northern have franchise plans to transfer some guards from the trains which become DOO into new customer services/revenue inspection jobs on some stations, so it would look unlikely that reaching a similar agreement is within the options available to Arriva.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

The difference is that Southern had long agreed that all the trains which had guards would continue to have them ‘rostered’. Northern have franchise plans to transfer some guards from the trains which become DOO into new customer services/revenue inspection jobs on some stations, so it would look unlikely that reaching a similar agreement is within the options available to Arriva.

That’s absurd and in that case I am sure I can speak for most people that would be a no go zone. Especially seeing as many of Northerns operating area is rural England and that isn’t a precedent which should be set.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s absurd and in that case I am sure I can speak for most people that would be a no go zone. Especially seeing as many of Northerns operating area is rural England and that isn’t a precedent which should be set.

There won't be any rural DOO. DOO is only going to be on the new DMUs and EMUs, which are not operating rural local services, which will be the preserve of 15x for years to come.

 

[Carlisle]

That’s absurd and in that case I am sure I can speak for most people that would be a no go zone. Especially seeing as many of Northerns operating area is rural England and that isn’t a precedent which should be set.

Not really absurd, the Southern agreement doesn’t apply to the BML partly due to its fully staffed stations, I imagine the same could apply on any northern routes that went fully DOO, probably best for inner suburban type routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really absurd, the Southern agreement doesn’t apply to the BML partly due to its fully staffed stations, I imagine the same could apply on any northern routes that went fully DOO, probably best for inner suburban type routes.

It can only be the new stock. There is no proposal to fit DOO equipment either to stations or to Class 15x assuming the latter would even be feasible.

So you might find the Hadfield stopper and some Leeds area locals being DOO, but not a lot else in suburban terms. It will primarily be Northern Connect regional expresses. Which is why I think single-staffed trains are very unlikely in any form even if the driver does do the doors.

 

[theblackwatch]

They arent. But will be before too long.

It's a guess but I assume not many of you live in the Northern area? I have done all my life and have seen how strike breakers or scabs are dealt with by local communities. Its a very dirty subject, and I would not subject myself to that on a matter of principle or my family to the stigma.

But then all you seem to know more than me about my contract, and colleagues.

You are Arthur Scargill and I claim my Five Pounds! (Hope you're doing well in your mansion ) The days of the miners in the 1980s are over - despite your beliefs, I don't think local communities are going to worry about a couple of train drivers or guards who live on the estate.

PS I've always lived in the north.

 

[Carlisle]

It can only be the new stock. There is no proposal to fit DOO equipment either to stations or to Class 15x assuming the latter would even be feasible.

So you might find the Hadfield stopper and some Leeds area locals being DOO, but not a lot else in suburban terms. It will primarily be Northern Connect regional expresses. Which is why I think single-staffed trains are very unlikely in any form even if the driver does do the doors.

Yes I agree.

 

[Eccles1983]

You are Arthur Scargill and I claim my Five Pounds! (Hope you're doing well in your mansion ) The days of the miners in the 1980s are over - despite your beliefs, I don't think local communities are going to worry about a couple of train drivers or guards who live on the estate.

PS I've always lived in the north.

Well I assume you are aware of the dockers strike that took place in the 90's and the fallout from scabs there.

Or some parts of the peak district where people are still barred from pubs because of a scab relative.

Go to liverpool, inner manchester and parts of yorkshire and ask them about scabs. It is a stigma that lasts generations.

I think you'll find that once people are aware of said character failing then that person has a target on his/her back.

 

[Carlisle]

You are Arthur Scargill and I claim my Five Pounds! (Hope you're doing well in your mansion ) The days of the miners in the 1980s are over - despite your beliefs, I don't think local communities are going to worry about a couple of train drivers or guards who live on the estate.

PS I've always lived in the north.

Id hope those suggesting strikes and ultimately resignation rather than an amended contract are either extremely certain their employed former colleagues will support them financially on the dole or they’re fully prepared to offer that support to others in that predicament

 

[LOL The Irony]

Maybe the rmt should take this approach https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/jap...ng-to-run-and-refusing-to-take-anyones-money/

When Ryobi would not comply with their demands for better job security, the drivers decided to take an experimental angle with their strike: they would continue to drive their usual routes, except they would not be accepting anyone’s fare money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe the rmt should take this approach https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/jap...ng-to-run-and-refusing-to-take-anyones-money/

I don't *think* that's legal in the UK. You can, after a ballot, withdraw labour, but not perform only part of your job role. It's all of it (and get paid) or none (and don't get paid). That could I suspect result in disciplinary action for gross misconduct, though it does seem guards get away with not doing revenue by playing the safety card (in many cases even where this is not a particularly good argument) so it might not be as unviable as the law may suggest.

 

[Tetchytyke]

fully DOO, probably best for inner suburban type routes.

The suburban routes are going to be the preserve of the 150s, 156s, 170s and 319s for many years to come. It's the Northern Connect routes, with the shiny new trains, that won't have the guards.

I'm really not up for DOO on the likes of the Calder Valley, tbh. But it's "more efficient" innit.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't *think* that's legal in the UK. You can, after a ballot, withdraw labour, but not perform only part of your job role.

You can check tickets, but not collect money from/chase people who "refuse" to pay. The RMT did sinilar with the gatelines in London during the LUL ticket office dispute.

 

[Wychwood93]

You can check tickets, but not collect money from/chase people who "refuse" to pay. The RMT did sinilar with the gatelines in London during the LUL ticket office dispute.

And the outcome of the LUL ticket office saga was? Oh yes! - a lack of ticket offices. Still staff around the gatelines etc.

 

[Tractor2018]

But it's "more efficient" innit.

Ahaaa! Chris Grayling, I know it's you!!

 

[Tetchytyke]

And the outcome of the LUL ticket office saga was?

Significantly improved payoffs for the people made redundant.

That's why we have the farce of OBS/TE roles. They want rid of the staff, it only makes sense financially if you're rid of the staff, but they won't pay people off. It's about driving people out of a job that will rapidly be denigrated by the TOC. Already seeing that with OBS on GTR.

 

[Chester1]

They arent. But will be before too long.

It's a guess but I assume not many of you live in the Northern area? I have done all my life and have seen how strike breakers or scabs are dealt with by local communities. Its a very dirty subject, and I would not subject myself to that on a matter of principle or my family to the stigma.

But then all you seem to know more than me about my contract, and colleagues.

Well I assume you are aware of the dockers strike that took place in the 90's and the fallout from scabs there.

Or some parts of the peak district where people are still barred from pubs because of a scab relative.

Go to liverpool, inner manchester and parts of yorkshire and ask them about scabs. It is a stigma that lasts generations.

I think you'll find that once people are aware of said character failing then that person has a target on his/her back.

It is that kind of attitude that makes me glad the Tories destroyed the backbone of working class culture and union power in the 80s. I have been brought up in a country with much more freedom of choice and expression because of that. The Tories certainly should have helped new industries grow but I have no sympathy that the unions lost the miners strike etc, one bunch of bastards got screwed by another bunch of bastards. Are there really many people who are that narrow minded and confirmist that they will ban people from pubs because their relatives crossed a picket line?! If drivers or guards decide DOO is not worth striking over and cross picket lines they would be best moving away from Royston Vasey and to somewhere that has entered the 21st century!

P.S. I am a northerner who supports Northern guards striking over DOO. I guess to the knuckle draggers down the pub moaning about the smoking ban, immigrants and the ffing Tories I am not a true Northerner!

 

[Robertj21a]

Well I assume you are aware of the dockers strike that took place in the 90's and the fallout from scabs there.

Or some parts of the peak district where people are still barred from pubs because of a scab relative.

Go to liverpool, inner manchester and parts of yorkshire and ask them about scabs. It is a stigma that lasts generations.

I think you'll find that once people are aware of said character failing then that person has a target on his/her back.

It's no wonder that many people despair when they hear such comments.

 

[driver_m]

As would living in a cardboard box when your house was re-possessed.

Back to the topic, unless I've totally missed something, the drivers aren't even in dispute with ARN...

I know your a mod, but it is on topic. Northern's drivers are critical to its implementation or not. So how can it be off topic when they do get involved. Which they will.....

 

[PHILIPE]

Some years ago a chap in my office was telling us about a guy who went back to work during the 1926 General Strike and some 50 years on he was still ignored in the local Working Mens Club

 

[driver_m]

It's no wonder that I despair when I hear such comments.

I could say many more don't, but it's an impossible thing for either us to say. I'd agree with Eccles1983 though. A scab is not the sort of person I'd want anything to do with. Thry directly harm the cause youre fighting for.