Southern unable to call at Imperial Wharf

[waterboo]

So a fault with Doo cameras at Imperial Wharf means that Southern are not able to self dispatch 8 car trains. I was under the assumption that this service was guard dispatched from Clapham Junction North. Can anybody provide further clarification on this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't the Class 455 extras (terminate at Shepherd's Bush) DOO? (The Electrostars have bodyside cameras anyway)

Surprised Imperial Wharf has DOO cameras anyway - it didn't open until almost everything had them on board (or guards, in the case of when it was briefly Class 350 operated), did it?

Edit: no, looked at the list, they're not the short workings. Odd.

Edit edit: thinking on, yes, it is guarded north of CLJ. Perhaps they are actually cameras provided to assist guarded dispatch? Some stations have those, e.g. a couple of Merseyrail ones (where they were relevant to the Martin Zee case) and Berkhamsted.

 

[700007]

Aren't the Class 455 extras (terminate at Shepherd's Bush) DOO? (The Electrostars have bodyside cameras anyway)

Surprised Imperial Wharf has DOO cameras anyway - it didn't open until almost everything had them on board (or guards, in the case of when it was briefly Class 350 operated), did it?

Edit: no, looked at the list, they're not the short workings. Odd.

Edit edit: thinking on, yes, it is guarded north of CLJ. Perhaps they are actually cameras provided to assist guarded dispatch? Some stations have those, e.g. a couple of Merseyrail ones (where they were relevant to the Martin Zee case) and Berkhamsted.

Since when did 455s do Shepherd's Bush?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since when did 455s do Shepherd's Bush?

Maybe not all the time, but I have, in recent years, passed one a few times on the WLL (and wondered how it was going to get past North Pole before I read the timetable and realised it wasn't). They are sometimes used on the Shepherd's Bush short workings.

 

[700007]

Maybe not all the time, but I have, in recent years, passed one a few times on the WLL (and wondered how it was going to get past North Pole before I read the timetable and realised it wasn't). They are sometimes used on the Shepherd's Bush short workings.

Wow I didn't actually know that! In all the years I've known that service I have never seen one. I am right in assuming they don't run today, do they?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wow I didn't actually know that! In all the years I've known that service I have never seen one. I am right in assuming they don't run today, do they?

I don't know I'm afraid...not seen one there for a while though.

 

[Carlisle]

Edit edit: thinking on, yes, it is guarded north of CLJ. Perhaps they are actually cameras provided to assist guarded dispatch? Some stations have those, e.g. a couple of Merseyrail ones (where they were relevant to the Martin Zee case) and Berkhamsted.

I think your right, this confirms it

 

[74A]

Is the guard not able to move to a position where he can see all the platform. I though one of the benefits of having a guard was they didn't need to rely on cameras !!

 

[tsr]

The monitors have been out of use for some time and the risks posed by conductors having to undertake degraded dispatch for a prolonged time are deemed too great (ie. moving a considerable distance from their panel to see the full length of the train, then walking back, which means an incident could occur in the blind spot without them noticing when they walk back). These are indeed the conductor dispatch monitors. Imperial Wharf was not originally constructed with conductor worked 8 car 377 formations in mind, so these monitors are the best workaround.

4 coach 455 formations do work the WLL to Shepherds Bush until the May timetable change. They are conductor-worked and monitors are not needed.

 

[74A]

And why can't the driver use his cameras to check the train ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And why can't the driver use his cameras to check the train ?

Because it's not DOO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The monitors have been out of use for some time and the risks posed by conductors having to undertake degraded dispatch for a prolonged time are deemed too great (ie. moving a considerable distance from their panel to see the full length of the train, then walking back, which means an incident could occur in the blind spot without them noticing when they walk back). These are indeed the conductor dispatch monitors. Imperial Wharf was not originally constructed with conductor worked 8 car 377 formations in mind, so these monitors are the best workaround.

Has this change been prompted by an incident, then?

Hope they're fixed soon - aren't they moving to 8-car formations all day from the timetable change? Or is that December?

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Or the alternative is to provide a dispatcher to assist the conductor.

 

[87015]

See they are up to their usual figure fiddling and not putting it in as a fail-to-stop so it doesn’t count as a PPM failure like it should...

 

[greaterwest]

See they are up to their usual figure fiddling and not putting it in as a fail-to-stop so it doesn’t count as a PPM failure like it should...

But it's not southern's fault, so why should they be penalised?

 

[Carlisle]

Imperial Wharf was not originally constructed with conductor worked 8 car 377 formations in mind, so these monitors are the best workaround.

That’s surprising, given that when it opened none of the TOCs serving it operated any DOO on that route .

 

[greatkingrat]

But it's not southern's fault, so why should they be penalised?

Lots of disruption isn't necessarily the TOCs fault, but it still counts against their PPM figures.

 

[swt_passenger]

Wow I didn't actually know that! In all the years I've known that service I have never seen one. I am right in assuming they don't run today, do they?

There are short workings in today’s timetable as seen in RTT for Shepherds Bush.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...3/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SN
Don’t know if any 455s are still used though, obviously they can operate as far as the North Pole turnback without being dual voltage. The December carriage working notices still show one 455 arrival and departure via the turnback in the late morning peak. Someone has posted in the 455 rolling stock thread that the “shorts“ were all going to be 377 operated in the May timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s surprising, given that when it opened none of the TOCs serving it operated any DOO on that route .

There were no 8-car trains on the route either nor any proposals to operate them. They weren't feasible until Clapham Jn P17 was extended, and that was as a result of the huge growth caused mainly by the opening of Shepherd's Bush and Westfield. Prior to that the Southern service was always 4 car.

The issue appears to be sightings with guard operated 8 car trains only.

 

[tsr]

And why can't the driver use his cameras to check the train ?

Because it's not DOO.

Yep... amongst other things, the station infrastructure would have to be assessed for compatibility with 377 DOO cameras (this procedure had to be followed, extensively, for the recent rollout of DOO across Southern's 377-operated routes around Sussex, and includes tests such as ambient lighting issues and blind spots not covered by camera angles). There are no plans to do this.

Has this change been prompted by an incident, then?

Nope.

Hope they're fixed soon - aren't they moving to 8-car formations all day from the timetable change? Or is that December?

It's from this May's timetable change. Plans are being drawn up in case the monitor issue prevails.

Or the alternative is to provide a dispatcher to assist the conductor.

That may not be in the dispatch plan for that location. The time taken to resource competent dispatch staff, and draw up the relevant assessments, may easily be overtaken by the monitors being fixed.

There are short workings in today’s timetable as seen in RTT for Shepherds Bush.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...3/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SN
Don’t know if any 455s are still used though, obviously they can operate as far as the North Pole turnback without being dual voltage. The December carriage working notices still show one 455 arrival and departure via the turnback in the late morning peak. Someone has posted in the 455 rolling stock thread that the “shorts“ were all going to be 377 operated in the May timetable.

As above, 455s are still used, and will be until mid-May.

I understand there could now be plans to make the 455 duties into 5 coach 377 workings from May, temporarily, but this is very much subject to change. The aspiration is for 8 coach 377s to operate every Southern WLL service.

There were no 8-car trains on the route either nor any proposals to operate them. They weren't feasible until Clapham Jn P17 was extended, and that was as a result of the huge growth caused mainly by the opening of Shepherd's Bush and Westfield. Prior to that the Southern service was always 4 car.

Indeed. Imperial Wharf was originally meant to hold either 4 or 5 coaches (I honestly can't remember), and the line of sight for conductor dispatch has since needed to be accommodated correctly for longer trains.

The issue appears to be sightings with guard operated 8 car trains only.

Correct, and heading north only.

 

[londonboi]

Wow I didn't actually know that! In all the years I've known that service I have never seen one. I am right in assuming they don't run today, do they?

Yes they still do recently when there has been shut downs at weekends between Clapham and Victoria the metro caterham services where running between caterham and Shepard’s bush and where class 455 units

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m obviously glad that Southern didn’t role out full DOO everywhere, but what was the decision not to so the handful of 377 lines that they didn’t do, surely if they can do it in deepest darkest hampshire, then they do it on the Guildford line and the WLL?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m obviously glad that Southern didn’t role out full DOO everywhere, but what was the decision not to so the handful of 377 lines that they didn’t do, surely if they can do it in deepest darkest hampshire, then they do it on the Guildford line and the WLL?

There's no DOO on the WCML anywhere, that bit is the issue. That said, with bodyside cameras I can't really see any reason why there *shouldn't* be, for the Southern services only, other than presumably that there are agreements with the unions that there won't be.

One thing those services do highlight is the superiority of "driver open, guard close" in terms of performance.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's no DOO on the WCML anywhere, that bit is the issue. That said, with bodyside cameras I can't really see any reason why there *shouldn't* be, for the Southern services only, other than presumably that there are agreements with the unions that there won't be...

I remember an SWT driver (no longer posting on here) stating quite emphatically that SN couldn’t possibly operate DOO beyond Havant because SWT wouldn’t allow it. Meanwhile contractors were busily upgrading platform lighting everywhere between Havant and Southampton, and DOO started exactly as planned anyway...

 

[Bald Rick]

There's no DOO on the WCML anywhere, that bit is the issue. That said, with bodyside cameras I can't really see any reason why there *shouldn't* be, for the Southern services only, other than presumably that there are agreements with the unions that there won't be.

One thing those services do highlight is the superiority of "driver open, guard close" in terms of performance.

Lighting standards on the platforms, presumably.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lighting standards on the platforms, presumably.

Possibly so. Or possibly they've not checked.

 

[pompeyfan]

I remember an SWT driver (no longer posting on here) stating quite emphatically that SN couldn’t possibly operate DOO beyond Havant because SWT wouldn’t allow it. Meanwhile contractors were busily upgrading platform lighting everywhere between Havant and Southampton, and DOO started exactly as planned anyway...

To be fair there was a period where it was OBS mode as far as Havant, with a conductor running over the bridge to run services between Havant and Portsmouth/Southampton. There was issues training platform staff at Southampton and then Portsmouth & Southsea high level.

 

[74A]

Was there today. Cameras all working. 8 car trains stopping as normal. National rail had it correct that the train would stop. Just on the Southern website still showing trains not stopping. Hopefully someone will update their website soon.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Lighting standards on the platforms, presumably.

May well be, although some stations on the WCML (Apsley, for instance) actually has the DOO monitors installed.

 

[74A]

Lighting standards on the platforms, presumably.

I doubt it. London Overground are actually the major operator at that station. All their services are DOO so the lighting must be up to standard.