Arriva Rail North DOO

[John R]

I'm not sure why responses that nobody seems to know are intriguing. It's hardly surprising that Northern mgt will be playing their cards very close to their chest in terms of future developments in the dispute. You wouldn't expect anything else really.

Though of course you might like to elaborate on the conversations you refer to, as it seems as though you want everyone else to say what they know (and get somewhat put out when nobody does know anything), but are not willing to share your information.

 

[woodmally]

I've said previously I don't think RMT will win on this and I've not seen any evidence to change my view. It seems this one day of action reinforces my view that its enough for them to make a token gesture but not too much so their staff lose too much money. I guess the strike is on for more says on Southern as those conductors are paid more and can absorb the lack of wage better. Do people think this will ever end or is it the long game on both sides?

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Problem with the RMT now and I can understand certain members predicament for sure but they don’t seem to be able to compromise in anyway possible to the detriment of the members. It’s happening DOO with the newly introduced rolling stock, unfortunately what happened on Southern has set the precedent now and if it came to it I am sure that Northern would just impose the role the same way. They need to get a good concrete deal in place and not outright reject it. There is still officially a dispute on Southern but no strike action and the members are successfully doing the OBS job and to their credit they are doing it well.

 

[Starmill]

It's not your fault that they are doing that, but it is your responsibility to work around it so you can secure employment as you wish to, and not to just moan about it.

This is a load of rubbish.

People have every right to complain about changes to public transport which they rely on. We must, as a society, encourage people to rely on public transport and active modes instead of driving if we are to survive, basically. The negatives of everyone driving their car all the time are simply too great, specifically in terms of congestion and road building, pollution (noise and air) and carbon emissions.

Now you can argue about strikes all you like. But telling people 'it's your responsibility to work around it' is nonsense. It would be like me stealing from you, and then telling you that although that's not in your control, it's your responsibility to work around it and not complain so much about me stealing.

You appear to be trying to deny that the strikes cause disruption and economic losses to the region. It's plain that they do - that's why they're being held. People who make an effort to use public transport are doing the right thing, and I'm fed up of reading things about how it's 'their responsibility' to sort it out when it lets them down. In my view this is our responsibility as a society.

I don't agree with jcollins on a lot of points. However I do agree very strongly that it's unreasonable for anyone to pay hundreds of pounds for a hotel room to protect their job as a result of an interruption to an essential service like public transport. But this issue is multi-faceted and extends all major disruption and to people who live in underserved areas as well as just when strikes take place. If there were just one strike day then nobody would be having this conversation. However it's again and again for years now and there is no end in sight.

 

[Robertj21a]

This is a load of rubbish.

People have every right to complain about changes to public transport which they rely on. We must, as a society, encourage people to rely on public transport and active modes instead of driving if we are to survive, basically. The negatives of everyone driving their car all the time are simply too great, specifically in terms of congestion and road building, pollution (noise and air) and carbon emissions.

Now you can argue about strikes all you like. But telling people 'it's your responsibility to work around it' is nonsense. It would be like me stealing from you, and then telling you that although that's not in your control, it's your responsibility to work around it and not complain so much about me stealing.

You appear to be trying to deny that the strikes cause disruption and economic losses to the region. It's plain that they do - that's why they're being held. People who make an effort to use public transport are doing the right thing, and I'm fed up of reading things about how it's 'their responsibility' to sort it out when it lets them down. In my view this is our responsibility as a society.

I don't agree with jcollins on a lot of points. However I do agree very strongly that it's unreasonable for anyone to pay hundreds of pounds for a hotel room to protect their job as a result of an interruption to an essential service like public transport. But this issue is multi-faceted and extends all major disruption and to people who live in underserved areas as well as just when strikes take place. If there were just one strike day then nobody would be having this conversation. However it's again and again for years now and there is no end in sight.

People need to take responsibility for themselves. If that means they need to 'work around it' then so be it. Many people have no wish to be dictated to by others who go on strike.

 

[AlterEgo]

People have every right to complain about changes to public transport which they rely on.

Agreed.

We must, as a society, encourage people to rely on public transport and active modes instead of driving if we are to survive, basically. The negatives of everyone driving their car all the time are simply too great, specifically in terms of congestion and road building, pollution (noise and air) and carbon emissions.

Agreed.

Now you can argue about strikes all you like. But telling people 'it's your responsibility to work around it' is nonsense.

Disagree. It is an employee's responsibility to work around disruption where they reasonably can.

It would be like me stealing from you, and then telling you that although that's not in your control, it's your responsibility to work around it and not complain so much about me stealing.

It's not like that at all. A better analogy would be a road closure. For sure, it's inconvenient, and maybe even undesirable, and sure you did nothing to deserve it - but you can't just give up. Life will not reward you for sitting on your backside moaning while taking insufficient action to improve your circumstances.

People who make an effort to use public transport are doing the right thing, and I'm fed up of reading things about how it's 'their responsibility' to sort it out when it lets them down. In my view this is our responsibility as a society.

No, it is absolutely the individual's responsibility to take all reasonable steps to mitigate their own circumstances. This is a separate responsibility to the one society corporately owes.

Adversity will come in many forms throughout life and, as I said earlier, you won't be rewarded for moaning (quite bitterly!) while doing little else.

 

[Starmill]

Disagree. It is an employee's responsibility to work around disruption where they reasonably can

I agree that everyone will make these adjustments. However, there comes a point for everyone where they cannot be made any longer. This is particularly relevant as the Northern dispute has resulted in such a large number of strike days, and as Northern refuse to arrange the adequate alternatives for people who've already got a contract with them (even Southern did a better job at this) the impact is more severe.

What happens then is people lose their job or move house. This isn't a choice anyone should face in modern Britian as a result of a deterioration in the availability of public transport.

 

[woodmally]

Firstly for those that say its peoples responsibility to work round these disruptions. I would say no it isnt. The RMT keep saying they are fighting for "our safety". I wish they would just be honest and say its concern over future jobs and stop using us passengers as a pawn. The reality though is, like I stated above, I think people will adjust. It seems they are only striking one day a month now and the impact they are having is less and less. It might even help the Lancashire woes as there is a shortage of drivers in that part of the Northern Network.

As an aside I would love to get inside the head of the RMT leadership to understand what, if anything they hope to achieve. I cannot for the life of me see any way they can succeed. I know I've bashed on about this before but I really cannot see them winning on this one.

 

[Clip]

As an aside I would love to get inside the head of the RMT leadership to understand what, if anything they hope to achieve.

Obviously their aim is to keep their members in their job - i wouldve thought this obvious as its their members who have voted to go on strike. Thats how a union works

 

[Carlisle]

As an aside I would love to get inside the head of the RMT leadership to understand what, if anything they hope to achieve. I cannot for the life of me see any way they can succeed. I know I've bashed on about this before but I really cannot see them winning on this one.

Presumably they’re waiting to see what agreement is reached on Meresyrail, if it’s a similar one to the Southern OBS model that ASLEF agreed then there’s no reason the other disputes can’t be settled soon in a similar manner, however if RMT successfully argue for a driver open guard close deal on Merseyrail it’ll likley result in further deadlock in negotiations alongside escalated strike action in all other related disputes

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably they’re waiting to see what agreement is reached on Meresyrail, if it’s a similar one to the Southern OBS model that ASLEF agreed then there’s no reason the other disputes can’t be settled soon in a similar manner, however if RMT successfully argue for a driver open guard close deal on Merseyrail it’ll likley result in further deadlock in negotiations alongside escalated strike action in all other related disputes

And if, of course, the Merseyrail solution is "OBS on board but close all the ticket offices", we could get an entirely other set of disputes.

 

[Carlisle]

And if, of course, the Merseyrail solution is "OBS on board but close all the ticket offices", we could get an entirely other set of disputes.

Yes true, maybe that’s why it’s taking them so long to thrash out a workable agreement .

 

[Tetchytyke]

I am sure that Northern would just impose the role the same way

If the drivers don't agree to it, there'll be no imposition of anything. I wonder when that will be raised with ASLEF? Should be interesting.

The RMT keep saying they are fighting for "our safety". I wish they would just be honest and say its concern over future jobs and stop using us passengers as a pawn.

DOO trains are less safe than trains with two members of staff on it. There have been countless examples of this. It isn't just about PTI incidents either.

DOO trains are, of course, still safe. They may be safe enough. But they're not as safe.

they don’t seem to be able to compromise in anyway possible to the detriment of the members.

You need two parties to compromise. Have Arriva offered any sort of compromise? Not to my knowledge.

"We'll have a second member of staff on, possibly, just so long as it's convenient for us, but we won't promise anything you can hold us to" doesn't sound much like compromise to me.

Arriva are playing hardball more than the RMT. This might be because of contracts they have with the Tories to drive safety-critical people out of their jobs, sorry, "create efficiencies". But I find it fascinating how lowly staff are always expected to bend over and spread their hoop for management whenever there is a dispute. Never the other way around, is it?

 

[74A]

If the drivers don't agree to it, there'll be no imposition of anything. I wonder when that will be raised with ASLEF? Should be interesting.

The drivers will either have to do it or leave the job. There will not be an option of not doing it and just carrying on as now. I agree there will come a time when ASLEF will take action. What action and for how long I don't know. On Southern they had a overtime ban for a couple of months and about 5 days of strikes IIRC.

DOO trains are less safe than trains with two members of staff on it. There have been countless examples of this. It isn't just about PTI incidents either.

This statement has been said many times but nobody can provide any evidence that this is true. The only comparison I know of was provided by TfL when comparing DOO and non DOO overground services where they found slightly more incidents with guarded operation compared with DOO. However the difference were so small that the two methods of operation can be said to be as safe as each other.

You need two parties to compromise. Have Arriva offered any sort of compromise? Not to my knowledge.

"We'll have a second member of staff on, possibly, just so long as it's convenient for us, but we won't promise anything you can hold us to" doesn't sound much like compromise to me.

Arriva are playing hardball more than the RMT. This might be because of contracts they have with the Tories to drive safety-critical people out of their jobs, sorry, "create efficiencies". But I find it fascinating how lowly staff are always expected to bend over and spread their hoop for management whenever there is a dispute. Never the other way around, is it?

What compromise is possible in this situation ? You either need 2 members of staff or you don't. I really can't see where any compromise is possible is this situation.

 

[Robertj21a]

I agree that everyone will make these adjustments. However, there comes a point for everyone where they cannot be made any longer. This is particularly relevant as the Northern dispute has resulted in such a large number of strike days, and as Northern refuse to arrange the adequate alternatives for people who've already got a contract with them (even Southern did a better job at this) the impact is more severe.

What happens then is people lose their job or move house. This isn't a choice anyone should face in modern Britian as a result of a deterioration in the availability of public transport.

You do realise that there is an ongoing significant deterioration in the availability of public transport [bus] across many towns and villages in the UK ?. That isn't a choice anyone should face in modern Britain - it's not just trains/Northern.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The drivers will either have to do it or leave the job. There will not be an option of not doing it and just carrying on as now. I agree there will come a time when ASLEF will take action. What action and for how long I don't know. On Southern they had a overtime ban for a couple of months and about 5 days of strikes IIRC.

What resolved the situation on Southern was a big fat pay rise, even though most drivers had DOO in their T&Cs already.

It'll be interesting to see if that tactic works again, and how these big fat pay rises will achieve the stated aim of "cost efficiencies".

Arriva can, of course, dismiss-and-rehire, but that would be interesting for ongoing industrial relations. Though I wouldn't be surprised to see the Tories strongly encourage Arriva to jump up and down on the nuclear option button.

This statement has been said many times but nobody can provide any evidence that this is true.

RAIB responded to an FOI about this matter, and only eight of the incidents they included in their report involved despatch by guard.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/passengertrain_interface_inciden

(I can't copy from the relevant attached PDF).

Interestingly they distinguish between DOO and "platform depatch" on trains operating as DOO. I'm not sure that I would make that distinction.

The RMT make a compelling argument here: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/publica...role-of-the-guard-2016/guards-safety-2016.pdf (again, can't copy as it is a PDF).

For me, the incident at Kentish Town under First Capital Connect sums up what happens when you leave one person alone to manage a 12-car train of angry and unwell passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly they distinguish between DOO and "platform depatch" on trains operating as DOO. I'm not sure that I would make that distinction.

I'm not sure why, as they are quite different in terms of sighting. In terms of pure dispatch safety (so ignoring any other aspect of guarded operation e.g. emergencies away from a station) CD-RA is probably equally safe as guarded dispatch with platform dispatchers, and significantly safer than guarded dispatch without platform dispatchers (because if there are sighting issues there will typically be more than one dispatcher, any one of whom could see a problem and stop dispatch).

 

[Starmill]

You do realise that there is an ongoing significant deterioration in the availability of public transport [bus] across many towns and villages in the UK ?. That isn't a choice anyone should face in modern Britain - it's not just trains/Northern.

I do indeed. I find it just as unacceptable that "unprofitable" bus service cuts leave small but significant towns and villages cut off from any public transport at all, and I did give a nod to this in my post but it's off topic here.

 

[Starmill]

CD-RA is probably equally safe as guarded dispatch with platform dispatchers, and significantly safer than guarded dispatch without platform dispatchers (because if there are sighting issues there will typically be more than one dispatcher, any one of whom could see a problem and stop dispatch).

I agree but the trend has been one of removing platform staff over recent years, and reducing or removing staff dispatch even at major stations like Manchester Airport and London Blackfriars.

 

[Robertj21a]

I do indeed. I find it just as unacceptable that "unprofitable" bus service cuts leave small but significant towns and villages cut off from any public transport at all, and I did give a nod to this in my post but it's off topic here.

It's not as off-topic as you seem to think. Your comments 'This isn't a choice anyone should face......' must sound, to many, as if the issues are peculiar to the railways (and Northern in particular) - as if it should deserve some special recognition from others. In practice, many people all over the country have to deal with this problem all the time (and have done for some years, not just recent months during a rail dispute).

 

[Chester1]

And if, of course, the Merseyrail solution is "OBS on board but close all the ticket offices", we could get an entirely other set of disputes.

Yes true, maybe that’s why it’s taking them so long to thrash out a workable agreement .

What resolved the situation on Southern was a big fat pay rise, even though most drivers had DOO in their T&Cs already.

It'll be interesting to see if that tactic works again, and how these big fat pay rises will achieve the stated aim of "cost efficiencies".

The Southern dispute has more or less been solved by the drivers being worn down over time and accepting "thirty pieces of silver" to sell out the guards. Lets not pretend otherwise! The Merseyrail dispute neogiations must be heading in a similiar direction but with the guards shafting station staff to avoid eventually being shafted by drivers. I can't see how Merseytravel and Merseyrail can have anything to neogiate about if their payroll is not reduced enough to pay for buying rather than leasing the new fleet. Frankly the station staff can strike as much as they like because only a handful need to cross the picket lines to keep the underground stations staffed to meet safety requirements. Most passengers will be honest and pay when they can or have season tickets so revanue lost would be limited.

Its an entirely different situation with Northern because its a franchise requirement, most stations are not staffed and the DfT has much more control.

 

[driver_m]

To @74A . Drivers will have to leave? Is your answer, 'sack them all' by any chance? The drivers will have not have to accept it unless they vote to. And they won't have to leave. Yes, they can sack them, but where are you going to find the replacements ?

 

[Carlisle]

The Southern dispute has more or less been solved by the drivers being worn down over time and accepting "thirty pieces of silver" to sell out the guards. Lets not pretend otherwise! The Merseyrail dispute neogiations must be heading in a similiar direction but with the guards shafting station staff to avoid eventually being shafted by drivers. I can't see how Merseytravel and Merseyrail can have anything to neogiate about if their payroll is not reduced enough to pay for buying rather than leasing the new fleet. Frankly the station staff can strike as much as they like because only a handful need to cross the picket lines to keep the underground stations staffed to meet safety requirements..

Sounds like the most sensible outcome to all this should really be a statement from Merseyrail explaining that after very careful consideration their original proposals still represent the best way forward.

 

[Chester1]

Sounds like the most sensible outcome to all this should really be a statement from Merseyrail explaining that after very careful consideration their original proposals still represent the best way forward.

Merseyrail are doing what Merseytravel tell them. Its a Merseyside Labour vs RMT fight. Its another reason why it does indicate how the Northern DOO dispute will go. Arriva have to introduce DOO on half of services as part of the franchise agreement, its the Tories in charge politically through DfT and its not really about money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail are doing what Merseytravel tell them. Its a Merseyside Labour vs RMT fight. Its another reason why it does indicate how the Northern DOO dispute will go. Arriva have to introduce DOO on half of services as part of the franchise agreement, its the Tories in charge politically through DfT and its not really about money.

Half of passenger mileage, not services. The 195s will be operating long distance routes so will skew this. There will be no DOO on classic rolling stock, and Pacers aside none of that is going anywhere any time soon.

 

[74A]

To @74A . Drivers will have to leave? Is your answer, 'sack them all' by any chance? The drivers will have not have to accept it unless they vote to. And they won't have to leave. Yes, they can sack them, but where are you going to find the replacements ?

There seems to be a belief that if something is not agreed to the drivers do not have to do it. That is wrong. If a driver is told on one day they will be learning to drive new trains DOO then they will have to do it. At Southern a driver refused to drive a 12 car train in DOO service. ASLEF were taken to court and lost a lot of money as a result. The judge said that an agreement was not required and ASLEF could not tell drivers not to drive the trains. The same would apply to driving trains DOO.

ASLEF cannot stop you doing it. An individual driver can refuse but they would be on there own. I don't know what Northern would do but probably send them home without pay and start disciplinary action. If they continually refused they the end result would be dismissal. And how many drivers would be willing to do that ? That is what I meant by either do it or leave.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

The Southern dispute has more or less been solved by the drivers being worn down over time and accepting "thirty pieces of silver" to sell out the guards. Lets not pretend otherwise! The Merseyrail dispute neogiations must be heading in a similiar direction but with the guards shafting station staff to avoid eventually being shafted by drivers. I can't see how Merseytravel and Merseyrail can have anything to neogiate about if their payroll is not reduced enough to pay for buying rather than leasing the new fleet. Frankly the station staff can strike as much as they like because only a handful need to cross the picket lines to keep the underground stations staffed to meet safety requirements. Most passengers will be honest and pay when they can or have season tickets so revanue lost would be limited.

Its an entirely different situation with Northern because its a franchise requirement, most stations are not staffed and the DfT has much more control.

How were the guards sold out? If that deal had not been made the T&Cs and contracts would of been imposed on them and would of been in GTRs favour. They have actually saved guards/OBS position and ensured there is a second person on every train (apart from the exceptional circumstances, many of them which applied before on the BML). End of the day, there is a public service to be run, drivers (and guards/OBS) have families to provide for and its a battle your never going to win. The company didn't care, all the costs were being underwritten by the DfT so they were happy to continue and continue which is exactly what is happening on Northern at the moment. The TOC has no choice it's a franchise obligation, and I'd imagine Northern are being underwritten in a similar manner. The DfT want DOO to be the default method of working now with new rolling stock.

 

[pompeyfan]

The DfT want DOO to be the default method of working now with new rolling stock.

And in my opinion, the DfT and Grayling are Wa.... people that stimulate themselves in an adult manner for doing so.

 

[northwichcat]

There seems to be a belief that if something is not agreed to the drivers do not have to do it. That is wrong. If a driver is told on one day they will be learning to drive new trains DOO then they will have to do it. At Southern a driver refused to drive a 12 car train in DOO service. ASLEF were taken to court and lost a lot of money as a result. The judge said that an agreement was not required and ASLEF could not tell drivers not to drive the trains. The same would apply to driving trains DOO.

ASLEF cannot stop you doing it. An individual driver can refuse but they would be on there own. I don't know what Northern would do but probably send them home without pay and start disciplinary action. If they continually refused they the end result would be dismissal. And how many drivers would be willing to do that ? That is what I meant by either do it or leave.

There is a difference in that Southern had an agreement in place for DOO and ASLEF believed their members had a right to refuse 12 x 20m car train because they had a 'gentleman's agreement' that DOO formations wouldn't be longer than 10 x 23m cars, when you consider the 20m cars don't have end doors the distance between the front and rear passenger door is probably almost identical on 10 x 23m and 12 x 20m. What is different is the number of doors but ASLEF seemed to overlook that.

Without knowing the exact terms of the contract it's not possible to say what ASLEF can and can't do at Northern. It's not just a case of whether DOO is specifically mentioned or not, it's also a case of what the other terms are and how vague or specific they are.

 

[northwichcat]

Merseyrail are doing what Merseytravel tell them. Its a Merseyside Labour vs RMT fight. Its another reason why it does indicate how the Northern DOO dispute will go. Arriva have to introduce DOO on half of services as part of the franchise agreement, its the Tories in charge politically through DfT and its not really about money.

Don't forget who was involved in writing the specification for the Northern franchise. The Conservatives were in coalition with the Lib Dems and while Patrick McLoughlin rejected Rail North's request to be the franchisor he did allow them to have a say in the specification and the franchise award. The majority of the voting rights for Rail North belonged to Labour councillors so you could say the Northern franchise is compromise between what the 3 largest political parties wanted. What gets overlooked is John Pugh former Lib Dem MP for Southport, who had worked on a report on social and economic issues facing the North, was instrumental in getting Pacer withdrawal in the Northern specification, despite Cameron and Osborne both wanting to try and claim it was down to them.