Class 379s or 350s for Corby?

[E6007]

I believe there were issues at LM with clearing double sets of 350/1s for 110mph running with two pantographs. Unsure whether they are cleared to run at 110mph with three but I very much doubt it as no 12 car is booked to run on the fast lines via Weedon to my knowledge. So if 12 cars to Corby is essential then clearances may need to be made in order to allow a triple set 350 running at 110mph. Otherwise I am guessing it's be max 100mph with a triple set and max 110mph north of Kettering with a double set from the day of introduction.

It might have taken a while but 12 car 350's are cleared for 110mph and operate at that speed everyday, e.g. 17:13, 17:49 and 18:13 from Euston in the evening peak.

 

[DarloRich]

..and there is also a difference under compulsary purchase laws vis a vis private and public companies doing the purchasing.
if it's for the likes of a housing development or supermarket:
" the purchaser must state a case for significant economic benefit to the local community if a request for demolition/repair is instigated,or it can be proven the existing structure is in such state of repair it is likely to cause harm if not removed"

no doubt hanson have done this at some stage(many years ago but not acted upon...I believe there is a 2 year time limit),and no doubt the council have put in a repair order..which means they need to comply with putting it right if they want to keep it as a heritage site.

Hanson want to clear the site completely for housing. There has been a counter proposals from the local authority to accept demolition of the chimneys and replacement with one new chimney bearing the name "Stewartby"

a public/government body does not have to go through these sort of legal chicanes.DfT can quite easily say,"This line is being built HERE,and sod the newt sanctuary"

They still have to comply with all manner of legal requirements. It isnt simply a case of pointing and shouting "make it so".

In any event this isnt going to happen.

 

[jopsuk]

So, in summary:
we don't really know what fleet strength will be required
Current interiors don't really matter- for a cost it is trivial to rip all seats and fittings out to replace them
there's 37 350/2s
there's 30 379s
there's 26 360s... which are an unknown, but could probably modified as with the 350s for 110mph assuming the MML OHL can take three appropriate pantographs at that speed.

 

[edwin_m]

there's 37 350/2s
there's 30 379s
there's 26 360s... which are an unknown, but could probably modified as with the 350s for 110mph assuming the MML OHL can take three appropriate pantographs at that speed.

London-Corby is about 1hr10min by Meridian and won't be much different with EMUs. So a train can work out and back in 3hr with layovers each end, and a half-hourly service requires 6 sets, 18 units in service if they are all 12-car in the peak so a fleet of 20 or a couple more. Which leaves an annoyingly small number left over with any of the above...

 

[43096]

London-Corby is about 1hr10min by Meridian and won't be much different with EMUs. So a train can work out and back in 3hr with layovers each end, and a half-hourly service requires 6 sets, 18 units in service if they are all 12-car in the peak so a fleet of 20 or a couple more. Which leaves an annoyingly small number left over with any of the above...

The fleet of 21 Class 360/1s is about the right size.... But if through gangways are needed....

 

[pt_mad]

It might have taken a while but 12 car 350's are cleared for 110mph and operate at that speed everyday, e.g. 17:13, 17:49 and 18:13 from Euston in the evening peak.

Oh right are these timed on the fast lines then? Do they go via Weedon rather than Northampton?

This information put 350s at a huge advantage then if they can be easily cleared for 110mph with 12 cars.


As for a question a poster raised about running bi modes on Corby workings but running in Diesel mode south of Bedford to be cleared for 125mph. Can't realistically see this happenning, not sure what everyone else thinks? Presumably the MML bi modes will run all electric north as far as Kettering and the Corby workings would look a bit daft running semi fast in diesel mode on fully electric sections.

 

[hooverboy]

I believe there were issues at LM with clearing double sets of 350/1s for 110mph running with two pantographs. Unsure whether they are cleared to run at 110mph with three but I very much doubt it as no 12 car is booked to run on the fast lines via Weedon to my knowledge. So if 12 cars to Corby is essential then clearances may need to be made in order to allow a triple set 350 running at 110mph. Otherwise I am guessing it's be max 100mph with a triple set and max 110mph north of Kettering with a double set from the day of introduction.

12 cars to corby is extremely unlikely. the present diagram is 5 cars, so I think if EMU's are used then it'll be 2*4car formation.It's still a vast improvement.

a smaller fleet is also feasible, as you could run 1*4 car on sundays without too much of a problem with capacity,leaving the other 4 car available for maintainance etc.

 

[E6007]

Oh right are these timed on the fast lines then? Do they go via Weedon rather than Northampton?

This information put 350s at a huge advantage then if they can be easily cleared for 110mph with 12 cars.


As for a question a poster raised about running bi modes on Corby workings but running in Diesel mode south of Bedford to be cleared for 125mph. Can't realistically see this happenning, not sure what everyone else thinks? Presumably the MML bi modes will run all electric north as far as Kettering and the Corby workings would look a bit daft running semi fast in diesel mode on fully electric sections.

All three go via Northampton. 17:13 is fast line to Milton Keynes, 17:49 to Ledburn Jn and 18:13 to Hanslope Jn.

Other 8 car 350s on the fast line at 110mph are 16:46 and 17:46 via Weedon, 17:16, 18:16 and 18:52 as far as Ledburn Jn, 18:49 as far as Milton Keynes Central. A few 12 car services in the morning at 110 mph but none via Weedon.

 

[edwin_m]

As for a question a poster raised about running bi modes on Corby workings but running in Diesel mode south of Bedford to be cleared for 125mph. Can't realistically see this happenning, not sure what everyone else thinks? Presumably the MML bi modes will run all electric north as far as Kettering and the Corby workings would look a bit daft running semi fast in diesel mode on fully electric sections.

I don't think there's any suggestion of bi-modes for Corby - if nothing else they would have had to be ordered by now to meet the elecrification date. 100mph electric running south of Bedford is achievable now as 319s have done it in 12-car formation, and is probably good enough to maintain a Corby timetable given that the Thameslink "flyers" proposed in the interim will be 100mph 700s. The question is whether the bi-modes running further north will have to use diesel power to get above 100mph south of Bedford.

 

[InTheEastMids]

I don't think there's any suggestion of bi-modes for Corby - if nothing else they would have had to be ordered by now to meet the elecrification date.

Although the EM Franchise winners could take something on a short-term lease for 3-4 years. The EM franchise bidders should be weighing up the potential benefit of an entirely homogenous fleet post-2024. A single fleet:
- improves flexibility, timetable resilience and recovery from disruption, particularly at STP
- simplifies operations - e.g. driver training, all units have identical performance
- simplifies maintenance - could all be done at Etches Park?
- could provide a better passenger experience (Note to self: DON'T mention seats!!!)
- could improve connectivity to the North - a "Corby" stopper could split at Kettering with half continuing to Leicester via Harborough, plus allow more frequent services from Corby Northwards (admittedly a pretty weak business case).

Not saying this makes going for a homogenous fleet bloomin' obvious, as to me it looks more expensive to get additional new-builds rather than used 350/379, but I hope all the franchise bidders have at least knocked up a spreadsheet to look at it.

 

[pt_mad]

All three go via Northampton. 17:13 is fast line to Milton Keynes, 17:49 to Ledburn Jn and 18:13 to Hanslope Jn.

Other 8 car 350s on the fast line at 110mph are 16:46 and 17:46 via Weedon, 17:16, 18:16 and 18:52 as far as Ledburn Jn, 18:49 as far as Milton Keynes Central. A few 12 car services in the morning at 110 mph but none via Weedon.

But are the ones at the top 12 car? We know 8 cars go fast line. It's 12 cars with 3 pantographs that was in question?

 

[E6007]

But are the ones at the top 12 car? We know 8 cars go fast line. It's 12 cars with 3 pantographs that was in question?

and post number 61 was the answer!

 

[whhistle]

The EM franchise bidders should be weighing up the potential benefit of an entirely homogenous fleet post-2024.

While you've listed some great examples, it's also worth remembering that if a flaw is found in one of the trains, the whole fleet will be wiped out.
Isn't this what happened to Heathrow Connect?

 

[Domh245]

While you've listed some great examples, it's also worth remembering that if a flaw is found in one of the trains, the whole fleet will be wiped out.
Isn't this what happened to Heathrow Connect?

Whilst that is true, the benefits of a common fleet vastly outweigh the risk of the entire fleet being grounded.

 

[MatthewRead]

While you've listed some great examples, it's also worth remembering that if a flaw is found in one of the trains, the whole fleet will be wiped out.
Isn't this what happened to Heathrow Connect?

So maybe 360's are another possibility?

 

[D365]

If you’re concerned, you might want to get in touch with Abellio.

 

[Wivenswold]

Haha, @D365. Though maybe it won't be so funny in 2021.

I'd say the 360/1s would be perfect, good acceleration, a few for spares and they're due a refurb. Superb units, I was rather hoping an uplift in passenger numbers post-franchise award might mean we keep them on GA but that's not going to happen sadly.

 

[DY444]

I don't think there's any suggestion of bi-modes for Corby - if nothing else they would have had to be ordered by now to meet the elecrification date. 100mph electric running south of Bedford is achievable now as 319s have done it in 12-car formation, and is probably good enough to maintain a Corby timetable given that the Thameslink "flyers" proposed in the interim will be 100mph 700s. The question is whether the bi-modes running further north will have to use diesel power to get above 100mph south of Bedford.

I think you mean 377s/387s have run as 12 cars at 100mph on the MML. 319s were restricted to 8 car formations.

 

[edwin_m]

I think you mean 377s/387s have run as 12 cars at 100mph on the MML. 319s were restricted to 8 car formations.

I thought someone posted further back that 319s could do so provided equipped with suitable pantographs. However you are correct that 377/387 has definitely done so and equally shows it's possible - it's more about the pantograph than what kind of train is underneath it.

 

[D365]

- it's more about the pantograph than what kind of train is underneath it.

And the overhead wires above it.

 

[MML]

While 8-car EMU may suffice off-peak, one would hope track capacity would be more effectively utilised by unit 12-car formations during the peak. I would also hope the seating and legroom offered provides a higher quality, inter-city experience for those travelling from Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton.

Use of the ironing board seats would not be acceptable for such distances.

 

[pt_mad]

Going North, is the plan that passengers from Bedford, Luton Airport and other intermediate stations board a Corby service and change at Kettering?

 

[edwin_m]

Going North, is the plan that passengers from Bedford, Luton Airport and other intermediate stations board a Corby service and change at Kettering?

I think that's likely for Bedford, Luton and Wellingborough with perhaps some extra stops on longer-distance trains in the peaks. Luton Airport has a bit more justification for stops on longer-distance trains because there's quite a significant passenger flow between it and the East Midlands.

 

[A0]

While 8-car EMU may suffice off-peak, one would hope track capacity would be more effectively utilised by unit 12-car formations during the peak. I would also hope the seating and legroom offered provides a higher quality, inter-city experience for those travelling from Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton.

Use of the ironing board seats would not be acceptable for such distances.

At present, 8 cars even in the peak would more than suffice.

A 5 car 222 has 192 standard and 50 first class, a 4 car 379 has 189 standard and 20 first.

If you get any of the Corby services it's rare that they are standing room only even after Luton and most of those are 5 car 222s, so an 8 car 379 which would offer double the number of standard class seats should more than suffice.

The 379s are little different seat-wise to the 350s which cover both Transpennine and LNW journeys that are much longer than Corby - London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

379s don’t have ironing boards. But I’d take an 8 car 350/2 (3+2) over a 5 car Meridian - seats for everyone.

 

[DaveN]

8 cars in the peak will not suffice because these will be the only trains stopping at Wellingborough, the only fast trains at Bedford and Luton and there will be very few other ones stopping at Kettering. See https://assets.publishing.service.g...dlands-rail-franchise-public-consultation.pdf page 28 and 29.

When going north from Bedford or Luton it may well be quicker to go via London than via Kettering throughout the day.

 

[A0]

8 cars in the peak will not suffice because these will be the only trains stopping at Wellingborough, the only fast trains at Bedford and Luton and there will be very few other ones stopping at Kettering. See https://assets.publishing.service.g...dlands-rail-franchise-public-consultation.pdf page 28 and 29.

When going north from Bedford or Luton it may well be quicker to go via London than via Kettering throughout the day.

Proposal at this stage - let's see what the final outcome is.

Unlikely that going north from Bedford is likely to be quicker to go to London - Bedford - Kettering currently is 22 mins, whereas EMT from Bedford - St P is 40 mins and St P - Kettering is circa 60.

Even Luton's going to be 'nip and tuck' as the EMTs take 24 mins from Luton - St P, but only 37 mins Luton - Kettering.

 

[DaveN]

But sadly what DfT "propose" tends to get implemented...

Depending how "bad" the connections at Kettering (there might be only 1 long distance an hour) and Leicester are, it might well be quicker to e.g. Derby via London

Let's hope not

 

[pt_mad]

Sounds kind of like what they did over on the WCML with the Trent Valley Stations. StoappiS service only and connections going north to be made at Stafford.

With extras in the peaks.

 

[Chris125]

12 cars to corby is extremely unlikely. the present diagram is 5 cars, so I think if EMU's are used then it'll be 2*4car formation.It's still a vast improvement.

The 'London to Corby Electrification & Capacity Upgrade' will allow for 12-car trains as described in the Enhancements Delivery Plan (page 35), so it seems reasonable to assume they'll be used.

"Provide the means to call 240m trains at the following stations: Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby and Market Harborough"