Questions about May 2018 changes to services around Huddersfield

[Bwlch y Groes]

Take a look at the car parks.

I don't know why people on this Forum get so sniffy about "leisure destinations" - there seems to be desired some people's eyes for every little village to have/ retain a heavy rail service but they don't like the idea of trains serving somewhere busy like the Glashoughton resort (outlet shopping centre and ski dome) or the White Rose Centre (shopping centre next to office parks) - despite the fact that these places attract thousands of cars a day.

I think that's fair comment, but isn't the problem with a potential White Rose station a) that it's impossible to build it on the curve and b) it's smack bang between two stations that are already quite close together, with no possibility of closing Cottingley due to the inevitable complaints that would arise from that, which makes a third station in the area difficult to justify?

The other side of that - and I'm playing Devil's advocate here - is that can you really establish train travel to out-of-town complexes like this that are inherently structured around the car? How many habits can be changed? People like to drive to out-of-town complexes because they see it as free, due to the free parking - I know the fuel costs, but you can drive somewhere else after, so it gives you flexibility. Trains to an out-of-town complex is surely the opposite of the whole point of the complex - perhaps it'd need to be fully integrated like MetroCentre station to be really effective

To give another example in a different part of the country, how much difference would a station at Talbot Green just off the M4 in South Wales (on the mooted restored line to Beddau) make? Most of the people who travel there by car come from the surrounding valleys - there would be no rail link for them to the complex, so they would still have to drive. I've always been supportive of the idea, but how many cars would it actually take off the road? It's debatable. Would it be able to attract entirely new visitors? Doubtful, because the train would be running to and from Cardiff

The same could apply to White Rose - why would you get off there when you're 10 minutes away from Leeds and its massive new shopping centre? Glasshoughton's a bit different in that case because it's that much further away - but how many people who use the station are actually going to the Junction 32 complex or Xscape? Parkgate's going to be another interesting case for this - when they eventually sort out the tram-train...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Take a look at the car parks.

I don't know why people on this Forum get so sniffy about "leisure destinations" - there seems to be desired some people's eyes for every little village to have/ retain a heavy rail service but they don't like the idea of trains serving somewhere busy like the Glashoughton resort (outlet shopping centre and ski dome) or the White Rose Centre (shopping centre next to office parks) - despite the fact that these places attract thousands of cars a day.

For me, the "lower Aire Valley" (i.e. Leeds - Castleford - Glasshoughton - Pontefract) could sustain something similar to the half hourly four coach EMUs that the "upper Aire Valley" (i.e. Leeds - Keighley - Skipton) has - it's an underserved market. But people are more interested in quirky routes in the area (Pontefract to Goole, or the irregular service through Baghill to Sheffield/ York) than anything as ugly/ mainstream/ obvious as linking commuter towns to their nearest big city.

Are we more interested in dealing with twenty first century demand or esoteric legacies from Victorian times?

Funny you should mention White Rose Centre, as I've made my thoughts clear on the proposed station there in the past. I don't doubt that a station there would do well but my issue with it is capacity (or rather the lack thereof).

The Northern all-shacks services are going, yet Leeds council want to spend some of their trolleybus money on adding another station on this crowded route. A White Rose Centre station would probably spell the end for either Morley or Cottingley, the latter of which has had a large housing development built right next door in the last decade.

 

[Spartacus]

To give another example in a different part of the country, how much difference would a station at Talbot Green just off the M4 in South Wales (on the mooted restored line to Beddau) make? Most of the people who travel there by car come from the surrounding valleys - there would be no rail link for them to the complex, so they would still have to drive. I've always been supportive of the idea, but how many cars would it actually take off the road? It's debatable. Would it be able to attract entirely new visitors? Doubtful, because the train would be running to and from Cardiff

Quite, as lousy as the parking there is, anyone coming from most directions isn't going to be in the market for going via train, and that's if they're close enough to a station with a direct service to make lugging their shopping back by foot worth it when they're used to just putting it in the back of their car. There's direct buses that people don't want to use, so they're unlikely to prefer a train journey with a change en route even with the advantaged that trains offer over buses.

 

[unlevel42]

I think that's fair comment, but isn't the problem with a potential White Rose station a) that it's impossible to build it on the curve and b) it's smack bang between two stations that are already quite close together, with no possibility of closing Cottingley due to the inevitable complaints that would arise from that, which makes a third station in the area difficult to justify?

The other side of that - and I'm playing Devil's advocate here - is that can you really establish train travel to out-of-town complexes like this that are inherently structured around the car? How many habits can be changed? People like to drive to out-of-town complexes because they see it as free, due to the free parking - I know the fuel costs, but you can drive somewhere else after, so it gives you flexibility. Trains to an out-of-town complex is surely the opposite of the whole point of the complex - perhaps it'd need to be fully integrated like MetroCentre station to be really effective

To give another example in a different part of the country, how much difference would a station at Talbot Green just off the M4 in South Wales (on the mooted restored line to Beddau) make? Most of the people who travel there by car come from the surrounding valleys - there would be no rail link for them to the complex, so they would still have to drive. I've always been supportive of the idea, but how many cars would it actually take off the road? It's debatable. Would it be able to attract entirely new visitors? Doubtful, because the train would be running to and from Cardiff

The same could apply to White Rose - why would you get off there when you're 10 minutes away from Leeds and its massive new shopping centre? Glasshoughton's a bit different in that case because it's that much further away - but how many people who use the station are actually going to the Junction 32 complex or Xscape? Parkgate's going to be another interesting case for this - when they eventually sort out the tram-train...

Meadowhall near Sheffield was built for the shopping centre and replaced the infrequently used nearby Brightside station.
It has now become a park and ride station for travellers throughout the region with a much bigger usage than planned.
But be wary Meadowhall has had a huge effect on Rotherham and Sheffield retail.

Footfall at Meadowhall Mall in its first two years was nearly twice what was expected, however individual spend was much less than expected. This was explained to me as a direct effect of Meadowhall station bringing in a different age/financial profile. The other reason was its initial failure to attract patronage from the more affluent (and students) from the suburbs on the opposite side of Sheffield city centre.
The owners/developers of these sites are very keen to create a "shopping experience" that will attract groups that spend. Perhaps that is why they do not see a local foot access and station attractive.

Parkgate is not on the same scale or type of shopping experience and will not attract customers from Sheffield.
From Rotherham it is better served by buses.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There is a clear incentive to use the slowest services end-to-end.

Can't wait. Overloading small stopping trains with long-distance passengers on cheap tickets works so well on LNR.

Do the stoppers have catering (im assumimg not, RTT suggests not)? People are going to have a surprise...

 

[Starmill]

Do the stoppers have catering (im assumimg not, RTT suggests not)? People are going to have a surprise...

Now that is a good question! I fear you may well have hit upon the answer there, although note that on TransPennine the trolley icon in the data does not seem to be awfully well correlated to the actual customer host diagrams.

Hull services currently do have the catering between Manchester Pic and Leeds. Anyone know if it's a franchise requirement for Hull services to have catering?

 

[47802]

Meadowhall near Sheffield was built for the shopping centre and replaced the infrequently used nearby Brightside station.
It has now become a park and ride station for travellers throughout the region with a much bigger usage than planned.
But be wary Meadowhall has had a huge effect on Rotherham and Sheffield retail.

Footfall at Meadowhall Mall in its first two years was nearly twice what was expected, however individual spend was much less than expected. This was explained to me as a direct effect of Meadowhall station bringing in a different age/financial profile. The other reason was its initial failure to attract patronage from the more affluent (and students) from the suburbs on the opposite side of Sheffield city centre.
The owners/developers of these sites are very keen to create a "shopping experience" that will attract groups that spend. Perhaps that is why they do not see a local foot access and station attractive.

Parkgate is not on the same scale or type of shopping experience and will not attract customers from Sheffield.
From Rotherham it is better served by buses.

In terms of a comparison Meadowhall of course has the advantage of an alternate tram service to the centre of Sheffield which while it may be a bit slower is probably more convienient for many around Sheffield which helps the local trains to Meadowhall from being overwhelmed by punters from Sheffield, it also has many more local trains that serve it compared to what would be available for White Rose.

Having now looked at the Timetable it is somewhat bizarre to say the least.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Now that is a good question! I fear you may well have hit upon the answer there, although note that on TransPennine the trolley icon in the data does not seem to be awfully well correlated to the actual customer host diagrams.

Hull services currently do have the catering between Manchester Pic and Leeds. Anyone know if it's a franchise requirement for Hull services to have catering?

As far as I can see there is no specific requirement to have particular services or routes catered or not.

The franchise agreement only refers to the number of catered miles per annum, but does not specify the routes or times. So, for example, it would seem that catering could be added between York and Middlesbrough and Scarborough but taken off the Hull services entirely, as long as the number of train miles for which catering is available is no less than the minimum in the agreement.

 

[Starmill]

As far as I can see there is no specific requirement to have particular services or routes catered or not.

The franchise agreement only refers to the number of catered miles per annum, but does not specify the routes or times. So, for example, it would seem that catering could be added between York and Middlesbrough and Scarborough but taken off the Hull services entirely, as long as the number of train miles for which catering is available is no less than the minimum in the agreement.

I see, how interesting. Thanks for pointing that out.