Questions about May 2018 changes to services around Huddersfield

[boeing737229]

Which stopper services out of Hudds are being taken over by TransPennine in May other than the Hudds - Leeds and Hudds - Manchester Vic? (which I see is being re-routed to Piccadilly - what even is the logic behind that, if there is any?)
The Penistone line is staying as it is I believe, and is the Wakefield Westgate service also staying Northern?
Although it obviously won't happen, perhaps it's be more appropriate if TPE got sprinters of some kind for these stopper services coz I just can't BEAR the thougth of 185s stopping at every station!

 

[backontrack]

Which stopper services out of Hudds are being taken over by TransPennine in May other than the Hudds - Leeds and Hudds - Manchester Vic? (which I see is being re-routed to Piccadilly - what even is the logic behind that, if there is any?)
The Penistone line is staying as it is I believe, and is the Wakefield Westgate service also staying Northern?
Although it obviously won't happen, perhaps it's be more appropriate if TPE got sprinters of some kind for these stopper services coz I just can't BEAR the thougth of 185s stopping at every station!

Hello @boeing737229

Only the Northern services from Leeds-Huddersfield and Huddersfield-Manchester are 'going TransPennine'. There are no plans for the network to expand to Wakefield, Barnsley, Sheffield, Brighouse, Halifax or Hebden Bridge.

Hope this helps

 

[Adam0984]

The Huddersfield to Wakefield is still going to be run by Northern but from May will only go to Kirkgate and will only use 1 set shuttling backwards and forwards with short turn rounds at each end. Then from December it’s expected that they’ll run Huddersfield to Castleford

 

[boeing737229]

Hello @boeing737229

Only the Northern services from Leeds-Huddersfield and Huddersfield-Manchester are 'going TransPennine'. There are no plans for the network to expand to Wakefield, Barnsley, Sheffield, Brighouse, Halifax or Hebden Bridge.

Hope this helps

It does help greatly thanks but what is the logic behind having the stopping services go to Piccadilly instead of Victoria? Surely with Piccadilly being on the mainline it'd result in more congestion and delays if the stoppers went there instead of Victoria like they do currently, and AFAIK they always have done

 

[backontrack]

It does help greatly thanks but what is the logic behind having the stopping services go to Piccadilly instead of Victoria? Surely with Piccadilly being on the mainline it'd result in more congestion and delays if the stoppers went there instead of Victoria like they do currently, and AFAIK they always have done

I don't know why they're diverting them to Piccadilly; it may be to free up paths for the second train per hour from Yorkshire/the North East to Manchester Airport (which will be routed via Manchester Victoria and the Ordsall Chord).

Ashton-under-Lyne will be served solely by extensions of Northern services from Lancashire that will terminate at Stalybridge.

 

[rich r]

The fact that the current Northern Selby-Huddersfield via Leeds and Bradford becomes the Selby to Manchester via Leeds and Bradford is very useful for me (living near Selby and working in Leeds and occasionally Manchester).

 

[nr758123]

Four fast trains an hour will go non-stop from Huddersfield to Victoria, and it’s operationally convenient to get what are effectively now the stopping trains out of the way by sending them to Piccadilly.

With 4 expresses and two stoppers going via Ashton, there will be twice as many trains using that route as now, which may come as an unpleasant surprise to regular users of the level crossing at Clayton Bridge.

 

[edwin_m]

It does help greatly thanks but what is the logic behind having the stopping services go to Piccadilly instead of Victoria? Surely with Piccadilly being on the mainline it'd result in more congestion and delays if the stoppers went there instead of Victoria like they do currently, and AFAIK they always have done

Sending the stoppers to Piccadilly helps maintain the link between Piccadilly and the Huddersfield route, along with the Airport trains that will now go via Victoria and Ordsall Chord but call at Piccadilly on the way to the airport. It actually improves journeys such as Mossley-London as there is no need to change stations. The current Piccadilly services conflict with many others by crossing all tracks in one go between Ardwick and P13/14 if going to/from Liverpool, or crossing them either on the way in or the way out if going to/from the Airport. The future stopping trains will stay on the northernmost tracks and terminate in a low-numbered platform at Piccadilly, so avoiding most of this conflict.

However is the removal of the Westgate leg of the Huddersfield-Wakefield detrimental to many journeys that currently connect at Westgate?

 

[nr758123]

TransPennine will be encouraging passengers at Piccadilly for Huddersfield & Leeds to use the fast trains from platform 14, at least at peak times, because of capacity concerns on the stoppers.

The removal of the Westgate leg appears to have minimal effect on connections from Huddersfield for the south, which are generally just as quick via Leeds.

 

[backontrack]

The removal of the Westgate leg appears to have minimal effect on connections from Huddersfield for the south, which are generally just as quick via Leeds.

Indeed - there are no stations reachable from Wakefield Westgate that cannot also be reached from Leeds (excepting Streethouse, Featherstone and Pontefract Tanshelf, which will soon have a service to Leeds when the Kirkgate terminators are extended there).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Indeed - there are no stations reachable from Wakefield Westgate that cannot also be reached from Leeds (excepting Streethouse, Featherstone and Pontefract Tanshelf, which will soon have a service to Leeds when the Kirkgate terminators are extended there).

Which connect at Kirkgate anyway...

 

[Ianno87]

Four fast trains an hour will go non-stop from Huddersfield to Victoria, and it’s operationally convenient to get what are effectively now the stopping trains out of the way by sending them to Piccadilly.

With 4 expresses and two stoppers going via Ashton, there will be twice as many trains using that route as now, which may come as an unpleasant surprise to regular users of the level crossing at Clayton Bridge.

Correct. The stoppers get effectively caught up by the fasts at Stalybridge, so they dive out of the way towards Piccadilly. Plus retains a Stalybridge-Piccadilly link without going right round the houses (which would more than double the current journey time)

 

[Tetchytyke]

TransPennine will be encouraging passengers at Piccadilly for Huddersfield & Leeds to use the fast trains from platform 14, at least at peak times, because of capacity concerns on the stoppers.

It'll be interesting if they use false destinations on the station PIS to avoid people getting the stopper instead of the fast. I hope they do.

 

[Ianno87]

It'll be interesting if they use false destinations on the station PIS to avoid people getting the stopper instead of the fast. I hope they do.

Be difficult with the Hull service, as that's a 'genuine' direct destination. Leeds, perhaps.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

This Huddersfield Line skip stopping was originally planned in 2013 (going by the defunct Northern Railways forum that I was a member of) which would see the Huddersfield to Man Vic shuttle "temporarily withdrawn" and in its place TPE services calling at some station with Northern at others.

I can't see the logic behind it myself but it does make some sense to get TPE to call at some stations that Northern currently serve such as Batley, Slaithwaite and Marsden.

It'll be interesting if they use false destinations on the station PIS to avoid people getting the stopper instead of the fast. I hope they do.

What's the chance that TPE could use Batley as a false destination?

 

[cactustwirly]

It'll be interesting if they use false destinations on the station PIS to avoid people getting the stopper instead of the fast. I hope they do.

It depends on whether the stopper gets overtaken.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Be difficult with the Hull service, as that's a 'genuine' direct destination. Leeds, perhaps.

True, but that's more of a semi-fast anyway, at least in West Yorkshire.

I'm expecting fireworks, if I'm homest

 

[Chester1]

Isn't the intent to double up some of the skip stoppers once the new stock has arrived? Am I correct in thinking that capacity will not drop in May but be redistributed slightly? The extended York service should be more than componsated by extra 185s (other members have said 2 out of 4 will be returned by Northern, not sure if this actually true), 2 Mark III sets and 1 unit saved by running via Chat Moss not CLC.

 

[nr758123]

I'm expecting fireworks, if I'm homest

What sort of fireworks?

 

[nr758123]

It depends on whether the stopper gets overtaken.

Manchester-Leeds stopper is overtakne at Dewsbury/Mirfield

 

[backontrack]

Which connect at Kirkgate anyway...

Exactly

Castleford > Huddersfield direct is a good idea I think. Perhaps one or two services could be extended to run to/from Pontefract Monkhill in order to serve the indoor ski-ing complex at Glasshoughton?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Exactly

Castleford > Huddersfield direct is a good idea I think. Perhaps one or two services could be extended to run to/from Pontefract Monkhill in order to serve the indoor ski-ing complex at Glasshoughton?

Not a terrible idea, but for I'm not sure how much of a draw Glasshoughton is... nor whether linking to a leisure facility should be a priority for the railway. If we can't extend beyond Castleford to York, we're unlikely to be able to make a Huddersfield to Pontefract service work.

 

[backontrack]

Not a terrible idea, but for I'm not sure how much of a draw Glasshoughton is... nor whether linking to a leisure facility should be a priority for the railway. If we can't extend beyond Castleford to York, we're unlikely to be able to make a Huddersfield to Pontefract service work.

York is a better suggestion TBH - I'm sure there's a market for Mirfield/Normanton/Castleford-York through journeys, as well as for Sherburn-in-Elmet to gain an increased frequency.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm not sure how much of a draw Glasshoughton is

The queues to get into the outlet village on a saturday show it is a draw. Whether those people would use the train is the question.

 

[skifans]

I don't see why the railway shouldn't encourage more links to leasure destinations. Though sadly I'll have to admit that the shopping center is probably more of a draw then the skiing. Although I've now moved away I did go once or twice by train.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The queues to get into the outlet village on a saturday show it is a draw. Whether those people would use the train is the question.

I don't see why the railway shouldn't encourage more links to leasure destinations. Though sadly I'll have to admit that the shopping center is probably more of a draw then the skiing. Although I've now moved away I did go once or twice by train.

I don't dispute that the complex at Glasshoughton (be it the retail village; the other outlets; the ski-slope or the cinema) is a draw... I'm not sure it should be a priority.

For one thing, Glasshoughton station is on an awkward bit of railway which doesn't have a huge scope for an increase in services. Leeds at one end provides a source of traffic but also a competing destination for Glasshoughton itself. At the other end is Pontefract/Knottingley and (at a stretch) Goole. Hardly destinations that will have people crowding the aisles to get to.

Glasshoughton is a decent place to spend an afternoon during the football close-season with a not-terrible train service to it. Do the businesses based at the complex promote rail as a way to access their services? Perhaps that would be a better way to boost ridership (in partnership with Northern of course) before we start creating convoluted services from Huddersfield.

 

[Crossover]

However is the removal of the Westgate leg of the Huddersfield-Wakefield detrimental to many journeys that currently connect at Westgate?

It hasn't gone down well locally, put it that way. Mirfield will suffer a bit with this as it does often make more sense to travel Mirfield - Wakefield Westgate and then onto XC/VTEC than to go via Leeds. The lack of through Castlefords currently is another bit of a kick. On balance, I think Mirfield will gain (especially with the hourly Sunday service, too!)

 

[tbtc]

Not a terrible idea, but for I'm not sure how much of a draw Glasshoughton is... nor whether linking to a leisure facility should be a priority for the railway

Take a look at the car parks.

I don't know why people on this Forum get so sniffy about "leisure destinations" - there seems to be desired some people's eyes for every little village to have/ retain a heavy rail service but they don't like the idea of trains serving somewhere busy like the Glashoughton resort (outlet shopping centre and ski dome) or the White Rose Centre (shopping centre next to office parks) - despite the fact that these places attract thousands of cars a day.

For me, the "lower Aire Valley" (i.e. Leeds - Castleford - Glasshoughton - Pontefract) could sustain something similar to the half hourly four coach EMUs that the "upper Aire Valley" (i.e. Leeds - Keighley - Skipton) has - it's an underserved market. But people are more interested in quirky routes in the area (Pontefract to Goole, or the irregular service through Baghill to Sheffield/ York) than anything as ugly/ mainstream/ obvious as linking commuter towns to their nearest big city.

Are we more interested in dealing with twenty first century demand or esoteric legacies from Victorian times?

 

[Starmill]

It'll be interesting if they use false destinations on the station PIS to avoid people getting the stopper instead of the fast. I hope they do.

Be difficult with the Hull service, as that's a 'genuine' direct destination. Leeds, perhaps.

What's the chance that TPE could use Batley as a false destination?

It depends on whether the stopper gets overtaken.

I don't think that TPE could use false destinations on the stopping services because they have been made reservable and they have probably already sold loads of Advance tickets for them!

Advance tickets, 21/05/2018
Manchester Pic to Leeds, direct trains:
0835 Fast Newcastle £16
0905 Fast Middlesbrough £16
0917 Stopping Leeds £9.50
0935 Fast Newcastle £16
0947 Semi-Fast Hull £7.50
1005 Fast Middlesbrough £16
1017 Stopping Leeds £7.50

SDS is £21.90. For First Class the percentage discount for going on the slow train seems even bigger. Would you pay £16 rather than £7.50, that's more than double, for the sake of less than 20 minutes longer journey time? There is a clear incentive to use the slowest services end-to-end. Not that this is especially surprising. As cactustwirly notes some of those cheaper trains are overtaken, but despite that, no way can they advertise them with a false destination.

 

[johntea]

Glasshoughton is an interesting place, soon it'll become the new home of the Tigers plus even more retail (M&S, Primark, Next and Boots etc). I would certainly be quids in if I had bought a property round there when they were first developing the area! (I remember going round the Freeport / XScape land in a JCB!), having said that the rail station usage is only 0.186 million and doesn't seem to change that much year on year - although ticket sales probably aren't the most accurate measure considering the conductors can sell a ticket with origin/destination as Castleford, Glasshoughton, Pontefract or Knottingley for the same price so often just sell whatever was last on their ticket machine to save time!

I was quite amazed to read today that The Light leisure complex (Like the Leeds one so cinema, restaurants etc) is opening in the middle of Bradford despite they fact they already have a Cineworld, bowling alley and various chain restaurants right next to Bradford Interchange!