Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bromley boy]

You don’t havev to work on the railway in order to participate in an educated debate on whether or not a highly subsidised industry actually represents value for money or not for its users.

No, but an educated debate on whether the railway offers value for money doesn’t include endless, obsessional postings about salaries, unions, comparing railway jobs to irrelevant, unrelated jobs outside the industry, making up new job titles for staff etc.

Drivers actually offer good value for money when you consider utlisation at most TOCs.

 

[ComUtoR]

You don’t havev to work on the railway in order to participate in an educated debate on whether or not a highly subsidised industry actually represents value for money or not for its users.

No you don't.

For as long as the Railway is privatized then what each TOC decides to pay its employees should ultimately be down to them. There is heavy competition amongst TOCs and the high salary has meant that they have an almost endless stream of replacement Drivers and various TOC staff.

I'm 'from the outside' and I am continually stunned as to how much ALL railway employees get. It truly is money for old rope. Not just the driving grade either. I know Platform staff that have had take home pay more than me !

Is it value for money ? Dunno in all honesty. Do I think that the ticket price is insane and provides any form of 'Value' ? I am no longer sure. I took a bus and the fare was a total scam. I barely went a mile and it cost me an arm and a leg. Taxi home; holy crap that stung me for a wedge.

However, with the railway salaries being so high I do think there is a lot to consider as to what 'value' really is and the ticket price goes to much more than just wages.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm 'from the outside' and I am continually stunned as to how much ALL railway employees get. It truly is money for old rope

I’m also from the outside and I’d beg to differ, based on the responsibility drivers have versus what some industries pay for far lower levels of actual responsibility.

But it’s good to know the 3100 club is delivering excellent money for old rope value .

 

[ComUtoR]

I’m also from the outside and I’d beg to differ, based on the responsibility drivers have versus what some industries pay for far lower levels of actual responsibility.

Platform staff getting £28k is 'value' for money ?

There are days as a Driver where I think I am overpaid and there are other days where you couldn't pay me enough to do what I do. The old adage that we are paid for what we know and when it goes wrong rings true. I have my first true 'near miss'

 

[Andrew32]

No-one's saying the RMT aren't willing to offer it now but you seem to be the only person who is claiming they offered it a long time ago, while RMT members were saying on here, on social media and other forums their union was saying driver closing was a red line as recently as a few weeks ago.

The offer was made to Arriva in the July 2017 negotiations, I was told this by the negotiator, after going away to consult for an hour they returned with the answer of ' no because it would mean guaranteeing a second person on every train, something we cannot do under the franchise agreement'.

This was also acknowledged by the then MD Alan Chaplin in a later brief about the negotiations .

 

[LowLevel]

Platform staff getting £28k is 'value' for money ?

There are days as a Driver where I think I am overpaid and there are other days where you couldn't pay me enough to do what I do. The old adage that we are paid for what we know and when it goes wrong rings true. I have my first true 'near miss'

I've seen these figures - do they really happen? As a guard I've only just passed the 29k mark. When I was on the platforms it was 20k at some stations and less at others.

Some days you do earn your money and some days you do nowt.

I recently had a joyous shift where I had a shortformed train. You'd not get me to volunteer for it for all the tea in China. Firstly it was crush loaded. Then one of the engines jacked with a massive coolant leak so I ended up fighting my way through a wedged out carriage to open the emergency windows and isolate the internal doors before people started passing out before joining the driver to find the source of the leak and photograph it. Then I had to argue with a group of drunks to shift along to get a wheelchair user on to the train.

Then I ended up on the phone to various controllers to arrange fitters assistance from another TOC while the driver concentrated on getting our knacker shifting as best he could, couldn't get hold of the station staff so made sure I was available to detrain the gent in a wheelchair, and sent my photographs off to the maintenance controller so that the depot teams knew what they'd got to repair when the unit got back. Then I spoke to the signaller at the terminus to make sure he knew we would be delayed there while the train was attended to (the control was dealing with a fatality elsewhere so evidently hadn't got round to telling Network Rail). I then lost my break while sorting out everything that needed dealing with at the terminus.

You might not need to be a 'guard' to coordinate all that but decent training and selection processes are crucial. That day I reckon I earned my pay!

 

[Bromley boy]

Platform staff getting £28k is 'value' for money ?

There are days as a Driver where I think I am overpaid and there are other days where you couldn't pay me enough to do what I do. The old adage that we are paid for what we know and when it goes wrong rings true. I have my first true 'near miss'

£28k for platform staff?! You might want to revise that...

TFL pay around that for platform staff - TOCs, even in London, a lot less.

 

[northwichcat]

Just can’t resist a good old dig at drivers can you

It's a fact that driver salaries have gone up much faster than inflation since BR whether or not they have DOO in the contract. I don't see how it's a dig at drivers to say they should be willing to accept more responsibility without needing further pay rises, given you've not given a single reason to justify the inflation busting pay rises. I'd say based on your previous posts you're embarrased that ASLEF made driver salary figures public when they are so high.

 

[northwichcat]

He doesn't seem too happy with southern using 'supervisor' in the OBS title either, and has even created a new acronym (OBA) to satisfy his desires.

I thought they were called on board assistants. Don't have a good at me for misremembering an abbreviation which some railway staff use and never explain when the same railway staff are constantly complaining about those roles not having enough responsibility!

 

[northwichcat]

Indeed.

It’s strange, and a little sad, the apparent obsession some posters have with rail staff (particularly drivers’) earnings, some of whom have previously stated they are themselves unemployed.

They apparently have nothing better to do than spend hours on here debating and arguing about pay in an industry they don’t work in themselves, yet are apparently obsessed with.

Well if the unions didn't keep striking and resulting in employers not being impressed when a prospective employee who says they would get the train to work, maybe I'd have a proper full time permanent job by now.

 

[pompeyfan]

Well if the unions didn't keep striking and resulting in employers not being impressed when a prospective employee who says they would get the train to work, maybe I'd have a proper full time permanent job by now.

And there we have it!

Back to the other topic at hand, SWR guards are just about to break £38, and southern’s OBS are on £38 for a 35 hour week!

Platform staff near me are on £15-1600 a month after tax but they have to do their fair share of nights and Sundays.

 

[Robertj21a]

And there we have it!

Back to the other topic at hand, SWR guards are just about to break £38, and southern’s OBS are on £38 for a 35 hour week!

Platform staff near me are on £15-1600 a month after tax but they have to do their fair share of nights and Sundays.

??? £38 - per hour ??!! - or £38k p.a ?

 

[pompeyfan]

Sorry, I forgot to add the ‘K’... £38k p.a

 

[HowardGWR]

38k is nearly 39000! (1024 x 38 = £38912).

 

[Wychwood93]

38k is nearly 39000! (1024 x 38 = £38912).

If one rounded it up to 40k and divided by the rounded up £8 p.h for minimum wage then someone on the latter would have to work 5000 hours p.year to get to the former. Somewhere around 13.5 hours per day for every day of the year. For the railway Hidden 18 would end up in meltdown. I am not heading to a particular point, just stating fact.

 

[Dave1987]

It's a fact that driver salaries have gone up much faster than inflation since BR whether or not they have DOO in the contract. I don't see how it's a dig at drivers to say they should be willing to accept more responsibility without needing further pay rises, given you've not given a single reason to justify the inflation busting pay rises. I'd say based on your previous posts you're embarrased that ASLEF made driver salary figures public when they are so high.

I'm not even remotely "embarrassed" by by salary. I would quite happily justify my salary to anyone that was genuinely interested to know about the job. But I see you as a University graduate that is just very salty that some lowly peasant who hasn't been to university could possibly earn more than you do. One thing I do find very very fascinating about people with your political beliefs is that when people are earning more than you think they are worth you seek to demand that Government takes action to reduce salaries, yet by that same token when companies are paying pittance to others you call that a "free market economy".

 

[Bromley boy]

Well if the unions didn't keep striking and resulting in employers not being impressed when a prospective employee who says they would get the train to work, maybe I'd have a proper full time permanent job by now.

Well that statement certainly puts your comments on this forum into perspective. It’s the railway unions’ fault you can’t find work in the IT industry, is it? Of course it is mate.

If you want someone to blame for your current state of unemployment, I respectfully suggest you look a little closer to home.

You spend a great deal of time and energy on here posturing, attacking T’s and C’s, asking staff to justify their wages. The cheek of it! As if they owe you any explanation at all, when their taxes fund your JSA payments, including those northern guards you’d like to see joining you on the dole queue.

I suggest you think about that next time you criticise ASLEF or the RMT for daring to protect their members...

 

[Wombat]

I realise that many people think that the strike action is justified and reasonable, but I don't think that gloating over the collateral damage does anyone any favours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well that statement certainly puts your comments on this forum into perspective. It’s the railway unions’ fault you can’t find work in the IT industry, is it? Of course it is mate.

And more to the point, if employers won't accept rail as a means of getting to work, then you (not *you*, jcollins) need to pass your driving test and start driving, use the bus or coach, or be willing to move closer to prospective employment such that you can cycle or walk or a taxi is affordable.

In any case, there are plenty of IT jobs that are 100% remote these days. Perhaps jcollins needs to look for one of those.

 

[Bromley boy]

I realise that many people think that the strike action is justified and reasonable, but I don't think that gloating over the collateral damage does anyone any favours.

That was not my intention.

I don’t believe the state of unemployment jcollins currently languishes in is anything to do with railway strike action. That sounds like a scapegoat to me.

I’ve certainly never worked for an employer which would decline a prospective employee based on their method of commuting (other than the railway, ironically, you need your own transport, minimum journey time to depot etc!).

 

[6Gman]

I've seen these figures - do they really happen? As a guard I've only just passed the 29k mark. When I was on the platforms it was 20k at some stations and less at others.

Some days you do earn your money and some days you do nowt.

I recently had a joyous shift where I had a shortformed train. You'd not get me to volunteer for it for all the tea in China. Firstly it was crush loaded. Then one of the engines jacked with a massive coolant leak so I ended up fighting my way through a wedged out carriage to open the emergency windows and isolate the internal doors before people started passing out before joining the driver to find the source of the leak and photograph it. Then I had to argue with a group of drunks to shift along to get a wheelchair user on to the train.

Then I ended up on the phone to various controllers to arrange fitters assistance from another TOC while the driver concentrated on getting our knacker shifting as best he could, couldn't get hold of the station staff so made sure I was available to detrain the gent in a wheelchair, and sent my photographs off to the maintenance controller so that the depot teams knew what they'd got to repair when the unit got back. Then I spoke to the signaller at the terminus to make sure he knew we would be delayed there while the train was attended to (the control was dealing with a fatality elsewhere so evidently hadn't got round to telling Network Rail). I then lost my break while sorting out everything that needed dealing with at the terminus.

You might not need to be a 'guard' to coordinate all that but decent training and selection processes are crucial. That day I reckon I earned my pay!

"Money for old rope"

Somebody said upthread.

 

[6Gman]

Well if the unions didn't keep striking and resulting in employers not being impressed when a prospective employee who says they would get the train to work, maybe I'd have a proper full time permanent job by now.

How many weekday strikes have there been on Northern this year?

 

[Wychwood93]

There is just too much bitterness in this thread. Those who are most to blame for that know who they are. Try to have a discussion, not some sort of pretend 'class' war. After nearly 3000 posts it may perhaps be time to pause matters until the RMT and Northern sort something out - and then let the bitterers 'box' again to a further inconclusion. As I mentioned on another thread, I joined this forum to find things out and 'talk sense' - I was not looking for political war. Militant vs. Daily Mail it should not be.

 

[palmersears]

If the Southern thread on this subject is/was anything to go by we've got at least another 123563 posts to be made and nearly as many circles to go round before those most deeply entrenched in this 'discussion' have boxed themselves to a standstill.

 

[Dave1987]

If the Southern thread on this subject is/was anything to go by we've got at least another 123563 posts to be made and nearly as many circles to go round before those most deeply entrenched in this 'discussion' have boxed themselves to a standstill.

Is this a discussion any more? Or certain people using it to constantly ridicule the RMT? In recent times the only comments I have ever read on these threads are either ridiculing the RMT or having a go at drivers or guards. If that is reasoned debate then this forum is most certainly not for rail staff anymore. It works both ways. If you want to ridicule/insult the RMT or ASLEF or drivers/guards then expect some backlash from that.
I have read numerous comments on this thread under the guise of 'reasoned debate' that have essentially just been a mickey take of an RMT press release. Is that reasoned debate???

 

[palmersears]

Is this a discussion any more? Or certain people using it to constantly ridicule the RMT? In recent times the only comments I have ever read on these threads are either ridiculing the RMT or having a go at drivers or guards. If that is reasoned debate then this forum is most certainly not for rail staff anymore. It works both ways. If you want to ridicule/insult the RMT or ASLEF or drivers/guards then expect some backlash from that.

I think those vociferously supporting both sides of the current industrial action in the thread have been guilty of elements of ridicule and unpleasantness, but my main issue is that it's all just variations on a theme. Until something actually changes between Northern and/or the RMT there won't be any new ideas or points of discussion to be had, so we just go round in increasingly larger and more ridiculous circles.

 

[theironroad]

There is just too much bitterness in this thread. Those who are most to blame for that know who they are. Try to have a discussion, not some sort of pretend 'class' war. After nearly 3000 posts it may perhaps be time to pause matters until the RMT and Northern sort something out - and then let the bitterers 'box' again to a further inconclusion. As I mentioned on another thread, I joined this forum to find things out and 'talk sense' - I was not looking for political war. Militant vs. Daily Mail it should not be.

I'd suggest that you don't open the thread and unwatch it then other people can talk about the things they want to of relevance to the issue.

 

[theironroad]

Anyway I'll be leaving railforums soon and the peasant driver grade (that's a PDG for anyone wishing to create new acronyms), and becoming a Saturday night entertainer as it seems Ant of Ant and Dec fame has income of £520,000 every 4 week pay period.

 

[the sniper]

Well if the unions didn't keep striking and resulting in employers not being impressed when a prospective employee who says they would get the train to work, maybe I'd have a proper full time permanent job by now.

Tell them you'd be catching the bus to work. Presumably they'd be fine with that and you'll get the job.

Anyway I'll be leaving railforums soon and the peasant driver grade (that's a PDG for anyone wishing to create new acronyms), and becoming a Saturday night entertainer as it seems Ant of Ant and Dec fame has income of £520,000 every 4 week pay period.

Aren't Saturday Nights DOO now too...? Dec Only Operation?

 

[woodmally]

Is this a discussion any more? Or certain people using it to constantly ridicule the RMT? In recent times the only comments I have ever read on these threads are either ridiculing the RMT or having a go at drivers or guards. If that is reasoned debate then this forum is most certainly not for rail staff anymore. It works both ways. If you want to ridicule/insult the RMT or ASLEF or drivers/guards then expect some backlash from that.
I have read numerous comments on this thread under the guise of 'reasoned debate' that have essentially just been a mickey take of an RMT press release. Is that reasoned debate???

Firstly I can't speak for others and I do think some of the arguments have gotten petty. However the RMT are the crux of this debate. I for one am angry they are being dishonest and saying its all about our safety and not about job loses. I've seen DOO work and it works fine. I wish they would stop lying and saying poor me poor RMT I'm taking an unpaid day off work for you and other passengers.