Transpennine Express Timetable May 2018 (Leeds - Manchester)

[Allwinter_Kit]

Obviously the wider shift in timetables means that fast services from Leeds to Manchester are switching from Piccadilly to Victoria. I knew this to be the case but I didn't realise quite what an impact it would have on commuters - suddenly Leeds to Piccadilly is now always a minimum of an hour, not to mention it also now comes in to the scrum of the Oxford Road platforms and the associated trek in from the far end of the station. This means that it's probably added a good 10 - 12 minutes on over the current timetable if you include the extra walking and crowd time in the peaks.

I understand the wider reasoning and such but you'd think there would still be one or two fast trains into and out of Piccadilly an hour which would enable the usual 50 odd minute journey time?

It just seems odd that journey times are increasing for a large number of passengers when the stated plan was to bring them down?

 

[Ianno87]

If you work right next to Piccadilly station, then your journey time does indeed increase. But on the way out of Piccadilly back to Yorkshire, passengers now also have the option of 'beating the crowds' by boarding before people get on subsequently at Oxford Road and Victoria.

However, most people presumably don't, and Victoria will be an acceptable (if not better) alternative, with a virtually identical journey time as is currently possible to Piccadilly. Oxford Road bound passengers will see less of a difference (only about a 4-5 minute extension or so, presumably), and an extra direct train every hour.

At least all 4tph Leeds-Piccadilly seem to have a roughly consistent 1 hour journey time, so (at least checking the westbound dircetion) they are well-spread around the clockface at both ends

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yes it will affect me as someone where piccadilly is ideal.

But i can see the greater good and overall improvements so will accept it. Particularly boarding before the rest of the scrum!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

One of the factors in the decision to originally reroute trans-Pennine services from Victoria to Piccadilly was that the commercial "centre of gravity" in the city centre had moved closer to Piccadilly than Victoria. But in more recent times it has shifted back making Victoria a more attractive destination once again. It's unfortunate that in the meantime it has been scaled down and hemmed in meaning it will often appear very busy in spite of having relatively few platforms.

 

[mike57]

And as I said in another thread if you are travelling beyond Manchester currently you change at Man Pic in all probability, so journey times for places like Chester, Stockport, Crewe, etc will be longer. I think going back to Man Vic as the main TPE stop is a retrograde step, from Scarborough where I usually start, a lot of my journeys will be longer and involve 2 changes rather than one. Perhaps they will reinstate the Stalybridge Stockport service which moved to once a week because all the Transpennine trains were rerouted to Man Pic

I hope I am proved wrong but I think there will be chaos in the aftermath of the May change, the timetable looks less robust, Hull loses its proper fast service, and Scarborough will have problems owing to the single Malton platform, the trains cross there within 3 mins of each other every hour. Overall if journeys are not convenient people will revert to car in a lot of cases, and if they are leisure journeys they will go somewhere else, or use a different form of transport.

 

[Gareth Marston]

And as I said in another thread if you are travelling beyond Manchester currently you change at Man Pic in all probability, so journey times for places like Chester, Stockport, Crewe, etc will be longer. I think going back to Man Vic as the main TPE stop is a retrograde step, from Scarborough where I usually start, a lot of my journeys will be longer and involve 2 changes rather than one. Perhaps they will reinstate the Stalybridge Stockport service which moved to once a week because all the Transpennine trains were rerouted to Man Pic

I hope I am proved wrong but I think there will be chaos in the aftermath of the May change, the timetable looks less robust, Hull loses its proper fast service, and Scarborough will have problems owing to the single Malton platform, the trains cross there within 3 mins of each other every hour. Overall if journeys are not convenient people will revert to car in a lot of cases, and if they are leisure journeys they will go somewhere else, or use a different form of transport.

Once all the new stock is delivered and everything is 5/6 car in length then nobody will even remember that most stuff went into the terminal platforms at Piccadily.

 

[xotGD]

Two direct trains per hour from Leeds to Oxford Road. Twice as good for me.

 

[johntea]

One thing I noticed at Victoria the other week is...there doesn't appear to be a cash machine in the station! (unless I'm being blind)

The nearest are the Co Op but they were both out of order, so then it was the Printworks which had an absolutely massive queue!

 

[185143]

One thing I noticed at Victoria the other week is...there doesn't appear to be a cash machine in the station! (unless I'm being blind)

The nearest are the Co Op but they were both out of order, so then it was the Printworks which had an absolutely massive queue!

Nearest are indeed the co op.

 

[Mathew S]

Nearest are indeed the co op.

If that's something that enough people complain about, I'm sure the Co-Op bank could be persuaded to stick a couple in the station.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's a bit of a blow for me losing the Leeds - Warrington Central direct route, especially as the Northern Chester service has been put back. I often travel to see family on this route and so having a direct service was really handy, especially when travelling with suitcases. I've always gone first class as with a Two Together card it is cheaper than standard without the discount, and it avoids the worst of the regular scrums on the North TPE. So for now it will be a change at Oxford Road or Piccadilly, something I'm not looking forward to.

 

[notlob.divad]

It's a bit of a blow for me losing the Leeds - Warrington Central direct route, especially as the Northern Chester service has been put back. I often travel to see family on this route and so having a direct service was really handy, especially when travelling with suitcases. I've always gone first class as with a Two Together card it is cheaper than standard without the discount, and it avoids the worst of the regular scrums on the North TPE. So for now it will be a change at Oxford Road or Piccadilly, something I'm not looking forward to.

Returning, Warrington -> Leeds, it looks like you might have a 'nice' same platform change at Newton-Le-Willows. ATW from Llandudno, arrives xx30, TPE to Newcastle xx43. Avoiding the scrum in Central Mancehster.

However on the way out, you only appear to get the same 'nice' change on the few occasions (early and late) when the Scarborough train stops at Newton-Le-Willows.

 

[Bantamzen]

Returning, Warrington -> Leeds, it looks like you might have a 'nice' same platform change at Newton-Le-Willows. ATW from Llandudno, arrives xx30, TPE to Newcastle xx43. Avoiding the scrum in Central Mancehster.

However on the way out, you only appear to get the same 'nice' change on the few occasions (early and late) when the Scarborough train stops at Newton-Le-Willows.

Yeah, I've scouring RTT for the best connections each way. Going out as you say doesn't have many 'nice' changes that don't involve hanging around at Newton for some time, so a Manchester connection its going to be as we will likely be heading west after the morning peaks. Had the Leeds-Chester been running I might have got a decent connection at Victoria, but I'll have to wait to see how this get timed in December (I could technically get this from Bradford as I start my travel at Baildon, but with suitcases in tow Bradford isn't the greatest place to connect hence travelling via Leeds). To be honest if the worst comes to the worst, I may consider breaking the journey at Manchester so that we can at least give ourselves the option of a drink en route if its looking like the next Cheshire-bound services are going to be rammed. Some more research is going to be needed for split ticketing options methinks....

 

[notlob.divad]

Yeah, I've scouring RTT for the best connections each way. Going out as you say doesn't have many 'nice' changes that don't involve hanging around at Newton for some time, so a Manchester connection its going to be as we will likely be heading west after the morning peaks. Had the Leeds-Chester been running I might have got a decent connection at Victoria, but I'll have to wait to see how this get timed in December (I could technically get this from Bradford as I start my travel at Baildon, but with suitcases in tow Bradford isn't the greatest place to connect hence travelling via Leeds). To be honest if the worst comes to the worst, I may consider breaking the journey at Manchester so that we can at least give ourselves the option of a drink en route if its looking like the next Cheshire-bound services are going to be rammed. Some more research is going to be needed for split ticketing options methinks....

I still don't understand why the DfT has prioritised sending a 2nd TPE North tph to Manchester Airport, over keeping Warrington on the TPE network. A Middlesborough / Scarborough <-> Victoria <-> Warrington BQ <-> Chester service would have been a great use of a path.

 

[Mathew S]

I still don't understand why the DfT has prioritised sending a 2nd TPE North tph to Manchester Airport, over keeping Warrington on the TPE network. A Middlesborough / Scarborough <-> Victoria <-> Warrington BQ <-> Chester service would have been a great use of a path.

Warrington will be getting it's trans-pennine service back when Northern Connect is fully implmented (on the Chester-Leeds route).

 

[backontrack]

Warrington will be getting it's trans-pennine service back when Northern Connect is fully implmented (on the Chester-Leeds route).

It won't go anywhere east or north of Leeds, though.

 

[Bantamzen]

I still don't understand why the DfT has prioritised sending a 2nd TPE North tph to Manchester Airport, over keeping Warrington on the TPE network. A Middlesborough / Scarborough <-> Victoria <-> Warrington BQ <-> Chester service would have been a great use of a path.

I don't think its so much prioritising the Airport services over Warrington, the Airport pathing remains largely the same but passenger numbers grow. Its more that the current path has been redirected partly to allow for better timings between Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds, but mainly because it was one of those services crossing the throat at Piccadilly that led to Ordsall Chord being commissioned. It would look a bit daft having spent £700M (?) on the project then authorising the kind of service this was supposed to bring to an end. Its a bit of a pain I grant you, but there it is. Perhaps if ATW don't take up the option of using the Airport path that DfT allow, it could be redirected to start at Victoria to add a second interchange option there for TPE passengers? (Dons tin hat )

Warrington will be getting it's trans-pennine service back when Northern Connect is fully implmented (on the Chester-Leeds route).

Indeed, once this is up and running it will fill some of the demand there is, and should in theory at least give a similar transit time save a few minutes connection at Victoria.

 

[lejog]

I still don't understand why the DfT has prioritised sending a 2nd TPE North tph to Manchester Airport, over keeping Warrington on the TPE network. A Middlesborough / Scarborough <-> Victoria <-> Warrington BQ <-> Chester service would have been a great use of a path.

Because 2 TPE Leeds-Airport services per hour was a Northern Hub requirement which had to be met to get £100m's of investment.

The DfT decided on a 2nd Liverpool service instead of the proposed TPE service to Chester.

 

[Mathew S]

It won't go anywhere east or north of Leeds, though.

Well yes, being a service from Chester to Leeds it wouldn't.

You will, of course, be free to change at Manchester or Leeds itself, which is hardly an enormous chore.

 

[backontrack]

You will, of course, be free to change at Manchester or Leeds itself, which is hardly an enormous chore.

Perhaps not, but there is always a risk of disincentivising passengers that way.

It does seem a slightly strange decision to cut Warrington out of the main TransPennine network though. I agree with those above who have stated their opinion that a TPE service to Chester would be more sensible.

 

[Starmill]

It does seem a slightly strange decision to cut Warrington out of the main TransPennine network though. I agree with those above who have stated their opinion that a TPE service to Chester would be more sensible.

I agree. There was an option to run the North TransPennine services through to Holyhead in the consultation, so a route like Middlesbrough to Holyhead might have been possible. This would have connected Chester with Leeds more quickly than the Northern Connect service will do, and have the benefit of adding Huddersfield, York, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Jn and Bangor to the route. These are long distance connections that I think have much, much more value than a second hourly service from York, Leeds and Huddersfield to Manchester Airport. Sadly the idea was opposed by the Welsh Government who wanted to save that path for more services under their control, so they can run to Cardiff instead. Again, I would think that express services to Manchester and Yorkshire towns and cities would be more valued by those in Bangor and Colwyn Bay than services to Cardiff are. Whats more, direct, express trains from Manchester (which currently has but a few) and Yorkshire towns and cities to Holyhead might encourage more use of the ferry for journeys to Ireland.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I agree. There was an option to run the North TransPennine services through to Holyhead in the consultation, so a route like Middlesbrough to Holyhead might have been possible. This would have connected Chester with Leeds more quickly than the Northern Connect service will do, and have the benefit of adding Huddersfield, York, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Jn and Bangor to the route. These are long distance connections that I think have much, much more value than a second hourly service from York, Leeds and Huddersfield to Manchester Airport. Sadly the idea was opposed by the Welsh Government who wanted to save that path for more services under their control, so they can run to Cardiff instead. Again, I would think that express services to Manchester and Yorkshire towns and cities would be more valued by those in Bangor and Colwyn Bay than services to Cardiff are. Whats more, direct, express trains from Manchester (which currently has but a few) and Yorkshire towns and cities to Holyhead might encourage more use of the ferry for journeys to Ireland.

I certainly think that a TPE service to Chester would be a valuable addition to the franchise. Maybe after TRU when rumours are there will be enough capacity for the stoppers to be reinstated (at least the Leeds to Huddersfield ones) the 6th TPE train could become a York to Chester TPE service.

 

[DarloRich]

I still don't understand why the DfT has prioritised sending a 2nd TPE North tph to Manchester Airport, over keeping Warrington on the TPE network. A Middlesborough / Scarborough <-> Victoria <-> Warrington BQ <-> Chester service would have been a great use of a path.

perhaps because the passenger flow from the NE/NY is to the airport rather than Warrington? For me one of the success stories of TPE has been the NE>Manchester Airport link. It seems to be pooh poohed by the experts here but anecdotal evidence suggests the direct service is a popular run.

 

[Starmill]

For me one of the success stories of TPE has been the NE>Manchester Airport link.

Given that it did not exist in any meaningful form between May 2014 and December 2016 that is a very weird conclusion. Between December 2016 and May 2018 it exists, but only 4 services each way per day.

 

[nr758123]

I certainly think that a TPE service to Chester would be a valuable addition to the franchise. Maybe after TRU when rumours are there will be enough capacity for the stoppers to be reinstated (at least the Leeds to Huddersfield ones) the 6th TPE train could become a York to Chester TPE service.

No. TRU needs to deliver enough capacity for the stoppers between Manchester and Huddersfield not merely to be reinstated but to be increased to half hourly. The silly obsession with running frequent but short express trains has already gone too far, to the detriment of passengers at local stations.

 

[transmanche]

Given that it did not exist in any meaningful form between May 2014 and December 2016 that is a very weird conclusion. Between December 2016 and May 2018 it exists, but only 4 services each way per day.

Middlesbrough still counts as part of the NE region

 

[faltskog36abba]

One of the factors in the decision to originally reroute trans-Pennine services from Victoria to Piccadilly was that the commercial "centre of gravity" in the city centre had moved closer to Piccadilly than Victoria. But in more recent times it has shifted back making Victoria a more attractive destination once again. It's unfortunate that in the meantime it has been scaled down and hemmed in meaning it will often appear very busy in spite of having relatively few platforms.

Another reason trans pennine switched stations in the late 80s was- The Windsor link. All the main services which served Victoria-Blackpool, Edinburgh /Glasgow, Southport, were to be re-routed making Piccadilly a better interchange. Rail magazine at the time said it was because of more patronage on the Warrington line rather than chat moss.

 

[DarloRich]

Given that it did not exist in any meaningful form between May 2014 and December 2016 that is a very weird conclusion. Between December 2016 and May 2018 it exists, but only 4 services each way per day.

oh. Where have they moved Middlesbrough to....

 

[backontrack]

oh. Where have they moved Middlesbrough to.......................

Hopefully, Yorkshire where it belongs

(actually, forget that - we're not sure we want it back...)

Again, I would think that express services to Manchester and Yorkshire towns and cities would be more valued by those in Bangor and Colwyn Bay than services to Cardiff are. Whats more, direct, express trains from Manchester (which currently has but a few) and Yorkshire towns and cities to Holyhead might encourage more use of the ferry for journeys to Ireland.

That latter point you make is a very good one, I think.

But even if the North Wales paths couldn't be awarded to TPE, I do think that a Chester-Leeds TPE service would be useful for people living in the Ellesmere Port and South Wirral areas too, as well as allowing people in Yorkshire and the North East to visit Chester Zoo (although the service through Calderdale to Leeds should help with that). Perhaps the service could even have run to Wrexham to help connectivity there?

 

[Starmill]

One of the hourly services is from Middlesbrough. notlob.divad was commenting on the second hourly service going to Manchester Airport which is required to serve York, Leeds and Huddersfield. I will not believe that there is demand enough from towns like Middlesbrough and Huddersfield or cities like York and Leeds that one service per hour is not adequate. This would mean a choice between Newcastle and Durham or Thornaby and Middlesbrough would need to be made.

I find it hard to believe that direct trains from Teeside to Manchester Airport are somehow crucial, given that places like Knutsford, Bangor, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Barnsley, Nottingham, Derby, Wrexham and Leicester do not have direct Manchester Airport services and will have to do without them for the whole of the foreseeable future, and places like Rochdale, Bradford and Warrington are only now gaining them.