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Our potential response to the gas attack in Syria.

Should the U.K. get involved with a retaliation against Syria?

  • No, it’s not our business.

    Votes: 28 52.8%
  • Yes, we should make it our business.

    Votes: 4 7.5%
  • Yes if as a small part of a much larger action.

    Votes: 11 20.8%
  • The ‘not sure’ option.

    Votes: 10 18.9%

  • Total voters
    53
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Up_Tilt_390

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Yes but do you think that obtaining marble is a pretext for war?

Sounds like something from a Chris Morris sketch.

Maybe not marble, but certainly things like lithium if the notion holds any merit. Like I said, I won't outright claim that we went to war for the sole purpose of these materials, I just don't believe that we did it solely because we have a humanitarian interest in the people of that region. Not even western governments care that much about people on an international scale, and I'll only believe they do if they start confronting certain countries that like to execute gay people and stone women to death for adultery. Yes, I mean Saudi Arabia, one of our closest allies who are apparently so vital to our arms dealing industry.
 
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Up_Tilt_390

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It's one of the most common elements and there's no shortage of supply.

Surprising given the amount of phones and computers we have today. I mean it is a large world of course, but still, there's a lot to cater for. I'm just saying really. Do we even re-use lithium after we throw old technology away or do we burn it or send it to landfill?
 

Up_Tilt_390

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It's not a normal source since it requires a lot more energy than using brine deposits, but it is feasible.

Suppose that eventually we might just have to resort to using it as a regular source if we start to run out of lithium. Either that or actually use war as a pretext if not the case now. Course solar radiation is quite expensive, but it pays for itself in the long run, so hopefully our future leaders won't be as stupid as a lot of others have been and go for a long-term self-sustaining solution.
 

Bromley boy

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Not even western governments care that much about people on an international scale, and I'll only believe they do if they start confronting certain countries that like to throw gay people off buildings and stone women to death for adultery. Yes, I mean Saudi Arabia, one of our closest allies who are apparently so vital to our arms dealing industry.

I certainly wouldn’t disagree with any of that!
 

najaB

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I'll only believe they do if they start confronting certain countries that like to throw gay people off buildings and stone women to death for adultery.
There are many, many things wrong with Saudi Arabia (homosexually being a capital offence is one of them) but I wasn't aware that the State throws gay people off buildings. As far as I know the only methods that the State uses for execution are beheading and the firing squad.
 

Bromley boy

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There are many, many things wrong with Saudi Arabia (homosexually being a capital offence is one of them) but I wasn't aware that the State throws gay people off buildings. As far as I know the only methods that the State uses for execution are beheading and the firing squad.

No, but they do export ultra-conservative Wahhabism* on an industrial scale:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...e-reactionary-branch-of-islam-said-to-be-the/

In July 2013, Wahhabism was identified by the European Parliament in Strasbourg as the main source of global terrorism.

Wahhabism has become increasingly influential, partly because of Saudi money and partly because of Saudi Arabia's central influence as protector of Mecca.

*guess which branch of Islam is followed by those who do throw homosexuals off buildings.
 

najaB

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No, but they do export ultra-conservative Wahhabism* on an industrial scale:
Which is one of the things wrong with Saudi Arabia. But it's important to blame them for the things they actually do or else you risk proving the 'the West hates all Muslins' rhetoric true.
 

Bromley boy

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Which is one of the things wrong with Saudi Arabia. But it's important to blame them for the things they actually do or else you risk proving the 'the West hates all Muslins' rhetoric true.

It worries me that the distinction between judicial execution of homosexuals and their extra judicial murder is a hair that can be split in 2018.

But I do take your point.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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There are many, many things wrong with Saudi Arabia (homosexually being a capital offence is one of them) but I wasn't aware that the State throws gay people off buildings. As far as I know the only methods that the State uses for execution are beheading and the firing squad.

Sorry, I kind of got them mixed up with ISIS when it comes to throwing gay people off buildings. Then again, Saudi has funded them so I guess you could say they at least condone it. I've amended my original post.
 

Bromley boy

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Then again, Saudi has funded them so I guess you could say they at least condone it.

Indeed. They aren’t doing much to disprove the “Islam is fundamentally incompatible with western liberal values” rhetoric.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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Indeed. They aren’t doing much to disprove the “Islam is fundamentally incompatible with western liberal values” rhetoric.

I don't think Saudi Arabia would really care about the rhetoric of any teachings of Islam being compatible or not. As a country it is considered the Holy Land of Islam, and if I am not mistaken prayer always happens when pointing towards the direction of Mecca. Nevertheless, it's not the only religious state that executes gay people. Africa has many predominately Christian nations that would treat gay people the exact same way, though to the west nowadays, Africa isn't very relevant in some areas. Libya would be relevant to us, yes, and maybe Egypt, but not many others really.

Not to mention, given how Christianity means so much to the Americans and their way of life (including in some cases choosing a president), it wouldn't really do them good to know that their teachings of the Bible is nothing like the African ways. Most people are usually defensive of their religions and would defend it to the grave, and American Christians can't really be much different. It's quite a privilege even that gay people can even become Christians or Muslims in the west when in the countries which follow them more closely would have them executed in a heartbeat.

EDIT: In an attempt to put this back on topic, though gradually rather than just immediate, was Assad's regime a secular government? I've heard a few things about how it's secular, though that was in fact years ago, and not from a verified source, but rather an individual person online. I'm not asking about Assad's own views, I mean how his government is ran when it comes to state and religion.
 
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DarloRich

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I notice man of peace Jeremy Corbyn has made some of his usual comments, which prima face, look so reasonable yet with a little bit of investigation show mendacious intent.

The first is that there should be an intentional investigation via the UN with Asad put on trial for war crimes. On first glance this seems eminently sensible and something that should be supported. However, he knows that Russia would block any such investigation. He knows this would never be allowed to happen until Russia changes it's tune. They haven't shown any indication that is likely to happen anytime soon so once again this is an opportunity for Corbyn to do what he does best: nothing beyond tutting, making bland statements condemning all violence ( unless it is US /Israeli) and not upsetting his friends.

The second is that there should be a vote in parliament and/or a War Powers Act before any military action is undertaken. Again, at first glance, a very sensible suggestion. However it again means that nothing will be done in a timely manner and presents another opportunity to do nothing beyond mealy mouthed words of unhappiness that stop short of condemning anyone.

Anyone would think there was a picture of Mr Corbyn, in a hideous burgundy blazer, meeting his good friend Mr Asad....................

What evidence exactly? The same type of evidence Blair used in his WMD against Saddam Hussein?

Are you blind? The evidence of the use of chemical weapons is quite clear. Try watching the evening news.

It's not of interest to me because of the reasons that I clearly stated. We are not the world's policeman. Our cemeteries - military and civil - are littered with the graves of young men and women that politicians sent to foreign lands to interfere with something that politicians didn't agree with.
Why didn't we act when the government of Botswana uprooted the Kalahari bush people out of the tribal lands that they had lived in for thousands of years to facilitate their diamond mining?
Why didn't we act when Mugabe slaughtered at least 20,000 of his own countrymen in Matabeleland?

Honestly - no one cares how many of your own people you kill as long as you use conventional weapons, as long as that killing doesn't become so egregious as to move towards genocide. That is a sad but true fact. The issue here is the use of banned chemical weapons, but you know that.

You seem happy to turn a blind eye to the use of chemical weapons. At some point it will become of interest to you if use of these weapons goes unchecked. What will it take for you to care?

BTW - is it also not our job to take in refugees of the conflict? If, as you and many others seem to think, we are ot blame for this conflict do we not have a moral right to accept those fleeing "our" war? I suspect you will say no.

So after carrying out airstrikes along with France the Americans, Theresa May has justified the use of this military action despite there being no proper investigation as of now by saying that it is a message that chemical weapons cannot be tolerated in today's world. It's all well and good, but does that mean all the previous missile strikes are suddenly irrelevant? After all, they didn't stop the most recent chemical attack, so why would now be any different?

I shouldn't be surprised really, our leaders probably won't ever wait for a proper investigation, in fact there may not have even been one given the circumstances in Syria. It's not exactly the most stable place to carry one out after all. But speaking of proper investigations though, and I'm no totally mad conspiracy theorist, but is anyone else reminded of the Gulf of Tonkin incident all of a sudden?

There wont be any investigation because the Russians will veto any action through the UN as they have been doing for some time. They even used their veto to block the sending of a strongly worded letter to Assad asking if he wouldn't mind awfully not murdering his own people. I have read media reports that they have blocked motions to censure Assad 6 times.

it is also worth noting that i have rad recently that Russia removed the right of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons to apportion blame for a chemical attack.

No I'm not... and it is a credible explanation. Besides, the US/UK governments have a history of lying... about Vietnam, about Iraq, about Libya... Why should we believe a word they say about Syria?

May I clarify? Are you saying you would rather accept the word of Putin ( via one of his propaganda vehicles) than the word of your own government?

I do however feel like it is time for the West to step in, in some way against Russia. Perhaps an overt propaganda offensive along the same lines as the one we are being subjected to at the moment could work, but I wouldn't hold out much hope.

Reading this thread and on social media it is too late. The information war has been lost. Putin has won. The sad fact is how easily the credulous unquestioningly lap up his bull.

Because there wasn't really any other agenda that could be disguised as humanitarian action, perhaps? I don't know, maybe my tin foil hat has got the better of me and that it's just a coincidence that we've only intervened in areas that just so happen to be rich in oil reserves and that. Sure, we didn't find Saddam's WMDs in the end, but hey, elementary mistake right? We all make them, it only cost a few needless lives to topple Saddam and leave nobody else to fill the vacuum of power just for something that turned out to be false.

That overlooks the fact that the intervention in Iraqi was successful. The country was invaded easily and an evil dictator removed for little military loss. What was not successful was the "peace". There was no plan on how to deal with the post Saddam world.

Ads an aside none of the activity in Syria is about humanitarian action. It is about the use of chemical weapons. That cant go unchallenged.

Maybe not marble, but certainly things like lithium if the notion holds any merit. Like I said, I won't outright claim that we went to war for the sole purpose of these materials, I just don't believe that we did it solely because we have a humanitarian interest in the people of that region.

We are finished as a society. The tin foliers rule the world.

We invaded Afghanistan on the basis that it was being used as base from which Al-Qaeda and other groups could operate freely, without hindrance and with the support of the "state" to attack western interests.
 
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najaB

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That overlooks the fact that the intervention in Iraqi was successful. The country was invaded easily and an evil dictator removed for little military loss. What was not successful was the "peace". There was no plan on how to deal with the post Saddam world.
Best described as a bad (or no) plan executed well.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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We are finished as a society. The tin foliers rule the world.

We were finished as a society a while ago, but I can tell you now, that so long as the earth is round and we landed on the moon, tin foilers do not yet rule the world. Even if they did would you really be surprised when you have things the NSA tapping into phones and declassified documents such as those from back in the 60s such as Operation Northwoods?
 

Senex

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I notice man of peace Jeremy Corbyn has made some of his usual comments, which prima face, look so reasonable yet with a little bit of investigation show mendacious intent.

The first is that there should be an intentional investigation via the UN with Asad put on trial for war crimes. On first glance this seems eminently sensible and something that should be supported. However, he knows that Russia would block any such investigation. He knows this would never be allowed to happen until Russia changes it's tune. They haven't shown any indication that is likely to happen anytime soon so once again this is an opportunity for Corbyn to do what he does best: nothing beyond tutting, making bland statements condemning all violence ( unless it is US /Israeli) and not upsetting his friends.

The second is that there should be a vote in parliament and/or a War Powers Act before any military action is undertaken. Again, at first glance, a very sensible suggestion. However it again means that nothing will be done in a timely manner and presents another opportunity to do nothing beyond mealy mouthed words of unhappiness that stop short of condemning anyone.

Anyone would think there was a picture of Mr Corbyn, in a hideous burgundy blazer, meeting his good friend Mr Asad....................
Surely no problem on a personal level about Corbyn choosing to support the line taken by Russia, the former Soviet Union, client states of the former Soviet Union across the Atlantic, or visiting that nice Mr Asad wearing his burgundy blazer — or indeed choosing as principal advisers apologists for the Soviet régime. But can it be right that such a person should be the leader of a major political party and the only political party capable of providing an alternative government? Could we really end up with a prime minister who will countenance certain actions only if a UN resolution can be obtained when he knows perfectly well that a country he seems to sympathise with will inevitably make such a resolution impossible?

May I clarify? Are you saying you would rather accept the word of Putin (via one of his propaganda vehicles) than the word of your own government?
There I have a problem, when "my" own government includes people like the present Foreign Secretary and others whose lack of respect for truth was shewn up so strikingly in a recent referendum with various promises made on a bus and in other places ...
 

Bromley boy

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There I have a problem, when "my" own government includes people like the present Foreign Secretary and others whose lack of respect for truth was shewn up so strikingly in a recent referendum with various promises made on a bus and in other places ...

Unlike George Osborne etc. of the remain campaign who spoke nothing but the truth, of course. :D
 

Groningen

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As long there is no invasion in Syria Assad will remain in power. With the help/backing of Iran, Russia and Turkey he will succeed.
 
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