Arriva Rail North DOO

[js1000]

Normally don't side with the unions but I think they have a lot of passenger support regarding DOO and redundancies. They certainly have mine.

They are looking to get rid of the conductor whichever way they try to phrase it. Likewise, I suspect they'd also like to get rid of ticket office staff. The newly introduced fine assumes every passenger has a smartphone which you can use to buy a ticket is yet another example of that. I prefer to buy from the ticket office so I will continue to make my point.

Rail fares will never go down so why accept an inferior service with less staff to help keep passengers informed and safe? This is meant to be a public service after all. Keep the pressure on I say.

 

[northwichcat]

Normally don't side with the unions but I think they have a lot of passenger support regarding DOO and redundancies. They certainly have mine.

They are looking to get rid of the conductor whichever way they try to phrase it. Likewise, I suspect they'd also like to get rid of ticket office staff.

I don't think any of that is true. Maybe they are looking to reduce the number of people on the guard grade long term but it seems some of the long serving guards want redundancy because they'll get a nice big payout and don't particularly want to move to an OBS role long term but Arriva have promised no redundancies. Given Arriva only have a franchise until 2025 I imagine it would be difficult from them to recoup the costs of making guards redundant before the franchise ends.

Not sure on the long term plan for staffing stations but unlike the old London Midland franchise there's nothing to suggest ticket office hours will be reduced and they've actually got a requirement to provide staff at some unstaffed stations - not necessarily ticket office window staff.

 

[the sniper]

The RMT's press releases do not say they are willing to agree to that arrangement and based on claims posted in various places on the web they only said they would be willing to consider driver opening and closing in the last few weeks after Northern said they weren't prepared to hold further talks unless the RMT bring something new to the table. Only a couple of months ago the RMT were calling for three way talks involving Northern and DfT so that the franchise agreement could be modified to suit their demands - something that was not required if they were willing to accept driver opening and closing.

I appreciate this is the press release appreciation society, but I come back to this again... Why do you expect that any organisation involved in a dispute/negotiation would honestly put out a press release announcing the worst case scenario for them that they'd eventually be willing to accept/concede at the end of the day?

 

[Carlisle]

I appreciate this is the press release appreciation society, but I come back to this again... Why do you expect that any organisation involved in a dispute/negotiation would honestly put out a press release announcing the worst case scenario for them that they'd eventually be willing to accept/concede at the end of the day?

We don’t , but the likelihood of an organisation calling DLR strikes on London marathon day claiming to have anything other than almost zero concern for any passangers needs now or in future may prove a little tricky amongst the non Corbinistas

 

[northwichcat]

I appreciate this is the press release appreciation society, but I come back to this again... Why do you expect that any organisation involved in a dispute/negotiation would honestly put out a press release announcing the worst case scenario for them that they'd eventually be willing to accept/concede at the end of the day?

If they have offered it (driver opening and closing if a guard is on board) and Northern have refused it despite it being possible within the franchise agreement then I would expect the RMT to want everyone to know that they were willing to compromise but Northern weren't. If they haven't offered it then scrapy was talking rubbish when he said that's what the RMT offered to Northern last year.

 

[HH]

I don't think any of that is true. Maybe they are looking to reduce the number of people on the guard grade long term but it seems some of the long serving guards want redundancy because they'll get a nice big payout and don't particularly want to move to an OBS role long term but Arriva have promised no redundancies. Given Arriva only have a franchise until 2025 I imagine it would be difficult from them to recoup the costs of making guards redundant before the franchise ends.

Not sure on the long term plan for staffing stations but unlike the old London Midland franchise there's nothing to suggest ticket office hours will be reduced and they've actually got a requirement to provide staff at some unstaffed stations - not necessarily ticket office window staff.

You're either being disingenuous or naive. Here's what I think - and I probably have a better idea than anyone on these boards what the current thinking is:

On Northern Guards this is stage 1. For sure they need a second person on most, maybe all, trains at the moment, but the plan is to move to smartphone ticketing over the next few years. Next franchise is when I would expect to see more change; this does not necessarily equate to removal of a second person on the train - it's quite possible that the reduction will come at stations.

As far as Ticket Offices are concerned, there is now a feeling that their days are numbered. The usual plan is to use a mix of 'Smart' Ticketing (which includes mobile) and TVMs with "multi-skilled" Customer Hosts on the Concourse helping passengers who need it (and not just with tickets). The only remaining TOs are likely to be at large stations and probably move towards more like how banks operate nowadays. The locations most likely to be affected are those with multiple TO windows, but if ticket sales drop enough then Sch17 allows for closure.

 

[northwichcat]

Next franchise is when I would expect to see more change

Exactly and we don't know who will run that franchise. Arriva aren't to do all the dirty work for a company like Abellio to profit from it, so why would they plan for beyond the end of the current franchise.

As far as Ticket Offices are concerned, there is now a feeling that their days are numbered. The usual plan is to use a mix of 'Smart' Ticketing (which includes mobile) and TVMs with "multi-skilled" Customer Hosts on the Concourse helping passengers who need it (and not just with tickets). The only remaining TOs are likely to be at large stations and probably move towards more like how banks operate nowadays. The locations most likely to be affected are those with multiple TO windows, but if ticket sales drop enough then Sch17 allows for closure.

Strangely at some Northern stations they position RPIs between the ticket office and the TVMs, which encourages people to use the ticket office over the TVM unless there's a long queue, as passengers don't want the hassle of dealing with the RPIs.

 

[Robertj21a]

You're either being disingenuous or naive. Here's what I think - and I probably have a better idea than anyone on these boards what the current thinking is:

On Northern Guards this is stage 1. For sure they need a second person on most, maybe all, trains at the moment, but the plan is to move to smartphone ticketing over the next few years. Next franchise is when I would expect to see more change; this does not necessarily equate to removal of a second person on the train - it's quite possible that the reduction will come at stations.

As far as Ticket Offices are concerned, there is now a feeling that their days are numbered. The usual plan is to use a mix of 'Smart' Ticketing (which includes mobile) and TVMs with "multi-skilled" Customer Hosts on the Concourse helping passengers who need it (and not just with tickets). The only remaining TOs are likely to be at large stations and probably move towards more like how banks operate nowadays. The locations most likely to be affected are those with multiple TO windows, but if ticket sales drop enough then Sch17 allows for closure.

That actually sounds rather logical, and sensible in the circumstances.

 

[scrapy]

If they have offered it (driver opening and closing if a guard is on board) and Northern have refused it despite it being possible within the franchise agreement then I would expect the RMT to want everyone to know that they were willing to compromise but Northern weren't. If they haven't offered it then scrapy was talking rubbish when he said that's what the RMT offered to Northern last year.

I am certainly not talking rubbish. I am not sure why it wasn't widely publicised but there were parts of the proposal that couldn't be accepted without proper consultation with ASLEF. As Northern have refused to talk to ASLEF so far about DCO and refused the RMTs request of three way talks. This was before ASLEF drivers on Southern accepted a deal for DOO so relations were different.

It was quite a sensible offer by the RMT for its members as it meant that there would remain safety critical guards on every train. They would all be well paid and RMT could increase its membership. It would also mean the RMT would be in a position in the future to demand door duties back possibly after a change of government or safety incident and this would be at little cost to the TOC. Once OBS grade is introduced it would difficult to go back.

I am not sure if it was a take it or leave it offer or if it' still on the table but I understand Northern won't talk to RMT unless they drop their demand for a second person on every train.

 

[Carlisle]

and refused the RMTs request of three way talks. .

Was there ever consensus amongst all parties that 3 way talks might actually deliver a workable deal more quickly or was it just seen as an opportunity for both unions to simultaneously recite their well rehearsed joint opposition plans in which case northern probably quite correctly rejected them ?

 

[northwichcat]

I am certainly not talking rubbish. I am not sure why it wasn't widely publicised but there were parts of the proposal that couldn't be accepted without proper consultation with ASLEF. As Northern have refused to talk to ASLEF so far about DCO and refused the RMTs request of three way talks. This was before ASLEF drivers on Southern accepted a deal for DOO so relations were different.

It was quite a sensible offer by the RMT for its members as it meant that there would remain safety critical guards on every train. They would all be well paid and RMT could increase its membership. It would also mean the RMT would be in a position in the future to demand door duties back possibly after a change of government or safety incident and this would be at little cost to the TOC. Once OBS grade is introduced it would difficult to go back.

I am not sure if it was a take it or leave it offer or if it' still on the table but I understand Northern won't talk to RMT unless they drop their demand for a second person on every train.

No-one's saying the RMT aren't willing to offer it now but you seem to be the only person who is claiming they offered it a long time ago, while RMT members were saying on here, on social media and other forums their union was saying driver closing was a red line as recently as a few weeks ago.

 

[scrapy]

No-one's saying the RMT aren't willing to offer it now but you seem to be the only person who is claiming they offered it a long time ago, while RMT members were saying on here, on social media and other forums their union was saying driver closing was a red line as recently as a few weeks ago.

Whether or not members accept it is a different matter but as things stood it wasn't put to members because Northern rejected it. There are no talks at the moment so it unlikely to come back under discussion. To be honest I thought it was only something that had recently been offered until I spoke to someone directly involved in negotiations.

 

[northwichcat]

Whether or not members accept it is a different matter but as things stood it wasn't put to members because Northern rejected it. There are no talks at the moment so it unlikely to come back under discussion. To be honest I thought it was only something that had recently been offered until I spoke to someone directly involved in negotiations.

I suppose it depends how it was asked as well. Northern want the option to run the service without a second member of staff in the event of a staff shortage so if the RMT asked for the second member of staff to have certain training with no other conditions it is more likely to be accepted than asking for the second person to have certain training as well as a guarantee a service will be cancelled is the second member of staff is unavailable. Given Southern have an agreement with ASLEF that under certain predefined conditions a service can run without a second member of staff, I don't think Northern will surrender to the RMT's demand for services to be cancelled if the second member of staff is unavailable unless they find they can't get anywhere with ASLEF.

 

[woodmally]

I don't think we can say either way whether the RMT have won, drawn or lost yet.

At the moment there hasnt been any DOO passenger trains operated on the Northern network.

There hasn't been any training for drivers.

There hasn't been any agreement with ASLEF for drivers to operate doors or run trains solo.

There hasn't been any proposal by Northern over how there will be a turn up and go railway for disabled people at all times on DOO services.

In the Manchester area the lack of staff on Metrolink is causing concern with a worrying number of violent incidents. Destaffing trains May become more politically unpopular.

More Northern drivers may join RMT action if they think it will have the impact that driver action seems to have had on Merseyrail or ASLEF may ballot for action seperately.

There will certainally be plenty of twists and turns and possibly concessions on both sides. Northern have already this week decided to cut the hours of its formally 24 hours customer service centre by 10 hours a day which was a franchise requirement so franchise requirements can be altered or ignored when it suits.

Firstly I thought the drivers union was Aslef and so couldnt join the strike without a ballot and why would they. Their jobs not under threat (yes I know they say its about safety but who actually believes that).

Secondly DOO will happen that there is no doubt IMHO and I cannot see how RMT can stop it. Aslef wont join in they have no reason too. The passengers have no power and the government doesnt want to intervene. I know what you are saying about it isnt over till its over attitude but I cannot see how this situation can change.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Firstly I thought the drivers union was Aslef and so couldnt join the strike without a ballot and why would they. Their jobs not under threat (yes I know they say its about safety but who actually believes that).

Secondly DOO will happen that there is no doubt IMHO and I cannot see how RMT can stop it. Aslef wont join in they have no reason too. The passengers have no power and the government doesnt want to intervene. I know what you are saying about it isnt over till its over attitude but I cannot see how this situation can change.

ASLEF will represent the views of its members. I certainly can't claim that I have spoken to a majority of Northern drivers but those with whom I have discussed DOO have all said they want nothing to do with it. Conditions on today's railway are very different to those which existed when DOO was first introduced in particular the extreme sensitivity to SPADs not to mention the strong focus on Platform Train Interface management. As such many drivers feel their jobs involve enough pressure already and don't want any more at each and every station call. It's no coincidence that Northern are trying to keep ASLEF out of the argument for as long as possible as they know the score. The cynical view is "how much?" ie what financial incentive will drivers accept in return for having DOO added to their contracts. Again drivers I have spoken to are aware that this will be part of the discussions at some point and most would expect a significant pay increase for DOO. I'm talking £thousands/pa. What is currently unknown is whether provision has been made in longer-term budgeting to cover such expenditure.

 

[Robertj21a]

Surely, if the drivers '.......feel their jobs involve enough pressure already and don't want any more.......' then any question of a financial incentive doesn't come into the debate ? If safety is supposed to be the issue then it's either simply not safe - or it will be accepted as safe if the drivers get some more money.

 

[northwichcat]

Surely, if the drivers '.......feel their jobs involve enough pressure already and don't want any more.......' then any question of a financial incentive doesn't come into the debate ? If safety is supposed to be the issue then it's either simply not safe - or it will be accepted as safe if the drivers get some more money.

Surely you don't believe the unions saying that safety is their primary concern. The RMT want a well paid second member of staff on every train, while ASLEF don't want more responsibility for their members unless more responsibility comes with more money. Ordinarily I wouldn't agree with more responsibility without a corresponding pay rise but since privatisation driver's salaries have increased at well over inflation, while advances in technology should be making other parts of the driver's role easier so I'm not sure a big increase in salary would be justifiable.

 

[northwichcat]

What is currently unknown is whether provision has been made in longer-term budgeting to cover such expenditure.

What is known is because the Northern franchise is subsided there's a cap on how much staffing costs can be, set by DfT, which increases slightly to allow for pay rises and more drivers to provide the extra services required in the franchise spec. Consequently if drivers were to get a big pay rise there would have be reductions in staffing costs elsewhere. I think the most sensible thing the RMT have said in the dispute relates to the second member of staff having PTS training whether they do the doors or not. Now if that hasn't been budgeted for, maybe it won't be possible to provide that for new OBAs as well as give drivers a big pay rise?

 

[theironroad]

What is known is because the Northern franchise is subsided there's a cap on how much staffing costs can be, set by DfT, which increases slightly to allow for pay rises and more drivers to provide the extra services required in the franchise spec. Consequently if drivers were to get a big pay rise there would have be reductions in staffing costs elsewhere. I think the most sensible thing the RMT have said in the dispute relates to the second member of staff having PTS training whether they do the doors or not. Now if that hasn't been budgeted for, maybe it won't be possible to provide that for new OBAs as well as give drivers a big pay rise?

What's an OBA?

 

[marcouk2]

What is known is because the Northern franchise is subsided there's a cap on how much staffing costs can be, set by DfT, which increases slightly to allow for pay rises and more drivers to provide the extra services required in the franchise spec. Consequently if drivers were to get a big pay rise there would have be reductions in staffing costs elsewhere. I think the most sensible thing the RMT have said in the dispute relates to the second member of staff having PTS training whether they do the doors or not. Now if that hasn't been budgeted for, maybe it won't be possible to provide that for new OBAs as well as give drivers a big pay rise?

Depends how badly the DfT want DOO in operation on Northern, there's a clause in the franchise agreement to allow payments to Northern for industrial action costs so would the DfT compensate for the actual extra costs of implementing DOO?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's an OBA?

A typoed OBS?

 

[northwichcat]

A typoed OBS?

I was thinking of On Board Assistant. However, what ever the Southern term is I'd be surprised if Arriva call them anything other than Customer Service Assistants given they use that job title when advertising for any station based role from ticket office clerk to dispatcher.

 

[Dave1987]

Surely you don't believe the unions saying that safety is their primary concern. The RMT want a well paid second member of staff on every train, while ASLEF don't want more responsibility for their members unless more responsibility comes with more money. Ordinarily I wouldn't agree with more responsibility without a corresponding pay rise but since privatisation driver's salaries have increased at well over inflation, while advances in technology should be making other parts of the driver's role easier so I'm not sure a big increase in salary would be justifiable.

Just can’t resist a good old dig at drivers can you

 

[Bromley boy]

Just can’t resist a good old dig at drivers can you

Indeed.

It’s strange, and a little sad, the apparent obsession some posters have with rail staff (particularly drivers’) earnings, some of whom have previously stated they are themselves unemployed.

They apparently have nothing better to do than spend hours on here debating and arguing about pay in an industry they don’t work in themselves, yet are apparently obsessed with.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

What is known is because the Northern franchise is subsided there's a cap on how much staffing costs can be, set by DfT, which increases slightly to allow for pay rises and more drivers to provide the extra services required in the franchise spec. Consequently if drivers were to get a big pay rise there would have be reductions in staffing costs elsewhere. I think the most sensible thing the RMT have said in the dispute relates to the second member of staff having PTS training whether they do the doors or not. Now if that hasn't been budgeted for, maybe it won't be possible to provide that for new OBAs as well as give drivers a big pay rise?

So maybe the cheapest option is simply to abandon any implementation of DOO.

 

[ComUtoR]

So maybe the cheapest option is simply to abandon any implementation of DOO.

The 'cheaper' option would be to offer ASLEF a ****ton of money to accept DOO. They will sell out faster than a Trump Mistress. £20k extra and this would vanish overnight. Sadly we get paid way to much already and taking a payout would be against jcollins core principles of overpaid and underworked Drivers 'budget constraints' so I guess a long drawn out stirke is inevitable.

 

[Bromley boy]

Sadly we get paid way to much already

In your link perhaps. Not in mine

 

[ComUtoR]

In your link perhaps. Not in mine

I am part of the 3100 club so yes, I am considerably richa, than youse.

As a newish Driver; what would your price be ?

 

[Carlisle]

Just can’t resist a good old dig at drivers can you

You don’t have to work on the railway in order to participate in an educated debate on whether or not a highly subsidised industry actually represents value for money or not for its users.

 

[theironroad]

Just can’t resist a good old dig at drivers can you

He doesn't seem too happy with southern using 'supervisor' in the OBS title either, and has even created a new acronym (OBA) to satisfy his desires.