Furness Line: My clockface timetable suggestion

[Agent_Squash]

Hi,

Out of complete boredom this afternoon, I decided to attempt to make the Furness Line work with a clockface timetable after seeing what @adrock1976 had done on the North Wales Coast. I've managed to achieve the following:

• 1tph Manchester Airport - Barrow
• 1tph Preston - Barrow
• 1tp2h Manchester Airport - Windermere

I based the service on using entirely 185s (assuming that Northern would be able to obtain them after they come off lease). Services depart Barrow at xx05 (Manchester service, semi fast) and at xx35 (to Preston, all stations). In the opposite direction, services depart Preston at xx20 and xx50. The overall timetable uses approximately 20 185s, which would work well with the 22 or so to be released.

What do you think?

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Looks good from what I can see, but it's not my local area

 

[Bertie the bus]

If I’m being honest I think you have just typed some numbers into a spreadsheet.

What makes you think Barrow – Preston needs to be half hourly?

Why would Preston – Lancaster need 3 trains in the space of 8 minutes (50, 53, 58)?

The xx:50 departure from Preston gets hit at the rear by the xx:53 Virgin departure just south of Lancaster.

 

[Agent_Squash]

If I’m being honest I think you have just typed some numbers into a spreadsheet.

What makes you think Barrow – Preston needs to be half hourly?

Why would Preston – Lancaster need 3 trains in the space of 8 minutes (50, 53, 58)?

The xx:50 departure from Preston gets hit at the rear by the xx:53 Virgin departure just south of Lancaster.

I knew I forgot to check something! The xx50 comes in at that time from the Chat Moss, using the path free in the timetable from May as the full service hasn't been implemented. To avoid conflict with the Virgin, I'm probably going to see if retiming it to xx00 would work better and then implementing all stops along the Furness Line. While this would remove the 1tph Preston-Barrow, it probably isn't needed anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My personal view is for an hourly train from Manchester Airport, formed of two Class 185s/195s/3-car 158s or (even better) some kind of bi-mode, which runs to Lancaster[1] then splits for Barrow and Windermere, calling at all stations (with the small ones on request), with a pure clockface timetable for the full period of operation as has been done for the Ormskirk line.

The Coast would be served by a (guaranteed) connection at Barrow in selected hours, running to a clockface pattern but in the hours relevant to school demand, shift changes at Sellafield etc.

There would be no separate Lancaster-Barrow or Oxenholme-Windermere services - all would run through.

[1] Calling at Heald Green, Picc, Oxford Road then either (but only one of these options) Wigan North Western, Preston and Lancaster, or Salford Crescent, Bolton, Chorley, Preston and Lancaster.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I've had an attempt retiming the service so it doesn't delay the Virgin - however, it soon delays the TPE following it. Therefore, I've timetabled it so the service stops at Wigan North Western for a longer period of time, and will join/divide on Platform 5. The service is now 1tph to Barrow, with 1tp2h dividing at Lancaster and continuing to Windermere. In order to ensure the service maintains its clockface frequency, the time at Lancaster remains the same whether the service is joining or not.

The Preston-Barrow service is no more - it's purpose can be fulfilled by making the stations it called at exclusively request stops, and making calls at both Roose and Dalton hourly. The overall journey time increase because of this is 6 minutes.

While I personally would prefer having all services run through from Manchester to Barrow, the first service towards Barrow and the last towards Manchester terminate at Lancaster. This is because it would be unrealistic to run a service at 0341 from Manchester Airport - it is however still possible to keep the diagrams self-contained. 9 units would be required to operate 6 diagrams (3 operate as 3 cars, 3 as 6 cars).

 

[Bletchleyite]

That seems more workable, though I would go hourly to Windermere given a choice, and TBH I wouldn't bother adding the confusion of two hourly at Silverdale and Kents Bank for all the time it'll save, might as well just stop them all there on request.

 

[backontrack]

You've missed out Kendal. Apart from that, good work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just stop everything everywhere north of Lancaster, with quieter stations on request. Keeps it simple, consistent and clockface.

A lot of Merseyrail stops are a bit of a waste of time, but keeping things simple and consistent has far more of a benefit than that lost by just stopping everywhere.

(Yes, there is Capenhurst, but that one is only done because otherwise the turnarounds would be too tight - that isn't the case here, and I could see all services stopping there once again when the high acceleration FLIRTs arrive)

 

[gordonthemoron]

since the semi fasts take the same amount of time as the all shacks services between Barrow and Preston, why not make both all shacks?

 

[Agent_Squash]

You've missed out Kendal. Apart from that, good work.

I just did the full timings for Furness line services - I’ll add Windermere when I have a chance - the Windermere services are timed, just not shown.

since the semi fasts take the same amount of time as the all shacks services between Barrow and Preston, why not make both all shacks?

I’ve got rid of the all shacks service in my latest update, with them being added on to the MIA service.

Windermere hourly could work - I’ll have a look at this as well.

 

[Agent_Squash]

So it turns out Windermere hourly could work without increasing the unit requirement significantly (from 9 to 12, so 14 including spares). The first service of the day towards Barrow now starts from Preston instead of Lancaster, while the last service from Barrow now terminating at Manchester Piccadilly facilitating a unit swap at Ardwick. All services now divide/join at Lancaster with Windermere served hourly - the clockface pattern is (from Lancaster) xx17 to Barrow, xx22 to Windermere, with this swapping on the second to last service to facilitate a unit swap. Windermere's hourly service could help speed up the TPE it waits for (the service would depart xx20 from Lancaster if the TPE wasn't there) allowing the TPE service to skip Oxenholme.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks good to me. Only thing I'd change now is not to alternate the request stops, just have them on all services for simplicity.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Looks good to me. Only thing I'd change now is not to alternate the request stops, just have them on all services for simplicity.

Could certainly be done - the timings don't actually change whatsoever (it only acts as padding really)

 

[cuccir]

It's a line that would benefit from clockface I think. Overall, I like it.

The dominant flow for the Furness Line is outward in the morning and back in the evening. So on the second version I'd chuck in a couple of extra eastbound departures to either Lancaster or Preston in the morning - your 07:02 and 08:02 will be very busy (in the May timetable there's currently 4 trains between 06:47 and 08:46) so I'd keep the 07:35 and 08:35 from the original timetable, perhaps running them through from Millom to provide a useful conncetion. You don't need the 23:02 evening departure out from Barrow and that unit could be better used to strengthen the morning services. Similarly, I'd find space for at least one extra westbound service in the evening period.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a line that would benefit from clockface I think. Overall, I like it.

The dominant flow for the Furness Line is outward in the morning and back in the evening. So on the second version I'd chuck in a couple of extra eastbound departures to either Lancaster or Preston in the morning - your 07:02 and 08:02 will be very busy (in the May timetable there's currently 4 trains between 06:47 and 08:46) so I'd keep the 07:35 and 08:35 from the original timetable, perhaps running them through from Millom to provide a useful conncetion. You don't need the 23:02 evening departure out from Barrow and that unit could be better used to strengthen the morning services. Similarly, I'd find space for at least one extra westbound service in the evening period.

As a minor point, timing those departures at 0732 and 0832 would maintain a clear pattern on the Merseyrail model, that requires one only to remember "xx:02 all day, but also every half hour in the morning rush".

 

[Agent_Squash]

As a minor point, timing those departures at 0732 and 0832 would maintain a clear pattern on the Merseyrail model, that requires one only to remember "xx:02 all day, but also every half hour in the morning rush".

Exactly what I ended up doing, with additional departures from Barrow at 0632, 0732 and 0832. These units remain at Preston until they depart back for the evening peak services, leaving Preston at 1530, 1630 and 1730. Windermere hourly is also a thing.

With regards to extending services to Millom and beyond, I'm of the opinion that a two-hourly service on the Coast with good connections at Barrow is better than running units for, making better use of 100mph units on largely 100mph routes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZAK__vkk1YcL31wSyTCZFImbPOSCDJoThsGtTMo2PvY/edit?usp=sharing

 

[backontrack]

Exactly what I ended up doing, with additional departures from Barrow at 0632, 0732 and 0832. These units remain at Preston until they depart back for the evening peak services, leaving Preston at 1530, 1630 and 1730. Windermere hourly is also a thing.

With regards to extending services to Millom and beyond, I'm of the opinion that a two-hourly service on the Coast with good connections at Barrow is better than running units for, making better use of 100mph units on largely 100mph routes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZAK__vkk1YcL31wSyTCZFImbPOSCDJoThsGtTMo2PvY/edit?usp=sharing

I don't see why Silverdale should be the station to have the fewest calls, though. Today, it's currently Kents Bank and Roose where the fewest services call - Dalton, Cark, and Silverdale all have the same frequency.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I don't see why Silverdale should be the station to have the fewest calls, though. Today, it's currently Kents Bank and Roose where the fewest services call - Dalton, Cark, and Silverdale all have the same frequency.

Was half way through making them hourly request stops - Roose has had a large increase in passengers in the last few years, and it looks set to increase. I wonder how much demand was realised once most services became all stations on the line.

 

[The Planner]

Presumably it is compliant with the TPR, difficult to comment on it as its just a timetable with no other services shown on it so there is no real way of saying it works or not. I must be missing something obvious though as you have the train splitting at Lancaster between xx.11 and xx.22, what happens to the TPE Glasgow/Edinburgh which passes at xx.15?

 

[backontrack]

Was half way through making them hourly request stops - Roose has had a large increase in passengers in the last few years, and it looks set to increase. I wonder how much demand was realised once most services became all stations on the line.

Yeah, I think Roose deserves a better service. Every train should call at Carnforth, Grange-over-Sands and Ulverston, and most should call at Roose, Dalton, Cark and Arnside. Silverdale and Kents Bank both deserve at least an hourly service, and a clockface timetable is a good way of achieving that.

 

[Bevan Price]

Some interesting ideas, but personally I think it would be desirable to have faster journeys to the main destinations, rather than have every train call at every small "shack". So, I would suggest every 2 hours from Manchester Airport, with stops north of Lancaster only at Carnforth, Arnside, Grange, Ulverston and Barrow. Some, at least, of these might usefully be extended as semi-fasts to Carlisle, calling only at Millom, Sellafield, St. Bees, Whitehaven, Workington & Maryport.

The "all-stations" services would also be every 2 hours, but augmented to hourly at busy times. Not sure if it is worth running these locals south of Lancaster except at peak hours.

 

[backontrack]

Some interesting ideas, but personally I think it would be desirable to have faster journeys to the main destinations, rather than have every train call at every small "shack". So, I would suggest every 2 hours from Manchester Airport, with stops north of Lancaster only at Carnforth, Arnside, Grange, Ulverston and Barrow. Some, at least, of these might usefully be extended as semi-fasts to Carlisle, calling only at Millom, Sellafield, St. Bees, Whitehaven, Workington & Maryport.

The "all-stations" services would also be every 2 hours, but augmented to hourly at busy times. Not sure if it is worth running these locals south of Lancaster except at peak hours.

That's a good suggestion. It should definitely call at Ravenglass and Wigton though.

1tp2h: Manchester Airport, Heald Green, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Deansgate, Bolton, Chorley, Preston, Lancaster, Carnforth, Arnside, Grange, Ulverston, Dalton (1tp4h), Barrow, Askam (1tp4h), Millom, Ravenglass for Eskdale, Seascale (1tp4h), Sellafield, St. Bees, Whitehaven, Workington, Maryport, Aspatria (1tp4h), Wigton, Carlisle

 

[Agent_Squash]

Presumably it is compliant with the TPR, difficult to comment on it as its just a timetable with no other services shown on it so there is no real way of saying it works or not. I must be missing something obvious though as you have the train splitting at Lancaster between xx.11 and xx.22, what happens to the TPE Glasgow/Edinburgh which passes at xx.15?

Service goes on to Platform 5 to split - Barrow service departs before the TPE at xx17, Windermere at xx22 after it.

That's a good suggestion. It should definitely call at Ravenglass and Wigton though.

1tp2h: Manchester Airport, Heald Green, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Deansgate, Bolton, Chorley, Preston, Lancaster, Carnforth, Arnside, Grange, Ulverston, Dalton (1tp4h), Barrow, Askam (1tp4h), Millom, Ravenglass for Eskdale, Seascale (1tp4h), Sellafield, St. Bees, Whitehaven, Workington, Maryport, Aspatria (1tp4h), Wigton, Carlisle

I think a good connection would work better - certainly for services to the north coast it may be better to get the WCML to Carlisle and then the Cumbrian Coast back down. 185s would probably not work on the coast either.

 

[cuccir]

Broadly I agree: there's just no need for a regular service from the Cumbria Coast to Lancaster. A 'fast' wouldn't work due to line speeds. And it's three hours from Workington to Lancaster direct but two via Carlisle: you'll never get those two competitive.

And as someone who grew up there, I'd argue that there's very little connection between the Copeland towns and Furness.

There is a little more demand from Sellafield and stations to its south, particularly south of Millom, and I still think a through service in commuting hours to/from Millom or Sellafield if it fits shift patterns would have its users. But theres no reason for a regular service - no one is doing Wigton to Ulverston!!

 

[The Planner]

Service goes on to Platform 5 to split - Barrow service departs before the TPE at xx17, Windermere at xx22 after it.

There are various oddities over the day at Lancaster that could cause this problems. I can't remember if the headway is 3 or 4 minutes along there so the TPE following could be tight and in some hours you would be coming out very close to an up TPE. The Morecambe service seems to be platformed in 5 occassionally too. Have a read of section 5.3 of the TPR for Lancaster as I reckon you need to fettle this.

 

[Agent_Squash]

There are various oddities over the day at Lancaster that could cause this problems. I can't remember if the headway is 3 or 4 minutes along there so the TPE following could be tight and in some hours you would be coming out very close to an up TPE. The Morecambe service seems to be platformed in 5 occassionally too. Have a read of section 5.3 of the TPR for Lancaster as I reckon you need to fettle this.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the TPR?

 

[The Planner]

Timetable Planning Rules, downloadable from the NR site.