Passenger Numbers on Gatwick Express

[Kite159]

Why can’t they do what BR did? There was a small premium, ie Gatwick was about 5p less than Three Bridges, but not a stupid one. The clever thing was that at Victoria all the non GX trains we’re not advertised as stopping at Gatwick and at Gatwick the trains were advertised as only going to Clapham Junction, or London Bridge Thus at Victoria the tourists were kept from clogging up the East Croydon trains and at Gatwick they are kept from delaying the ordinary services.

I did write can’t deliberately, because I have a feeling that the need for competition was what stopped the old and sensible situation continuing post privatisation (and possibly sectorisation).

Don't give Govia any ideas

 

[nottsnurse]

The clever thing was that at Victoria all the non GX trains we’re not advertised as stopping at Gatwick and at Gatwick the trains were advertised as only going to Clapham Junction, or London Bridge Thus at Victoria the tourists were kept from clogging up the East Croydon trains and at Gatwick they are kept from delaying the ordinary services.

I disagree with this approach entirely.

As a welcoming nation the UK should do all it can to not prey upon newly arrived tourists by funnelling them towards rail services that attract a premium (regardless of the level of premium) when regular alternative services exist.

Given how congested the Brighton Main Line is the drive should really be about getting rid of these superfluous GX services and using their paths to run services that benefit both UK residents and arriving visitors to these shores equally.

 

[Clip]

I disagree with this approach entirely.

As a welcoming nation the UK should do all it can to not prey upon newly arrived tourists by funnelling them towards rail services that attract a premium (regardless of the level of premium) when regular alternative services exist.

Given how congested the Brighton Main Line is the drive should really be about getting rid of these superfluous GX services and using their paths to run services that benefit both UK residents and arriving visitors to these shores equally.

Are there enough paths available south of Gatwick to run the Gatwick only services further south?

 

[Kite159]

I disagree with this approach entirely.

As a welcoming nation the UK should do all it can to not prey upon newly arrived tourists by funnelling them towards rail services that attract a premium (regardless of the level of premium) when regular alternative services exist.

Given how congested the Brighton Main Line is the drive should really be about getting rid of these superfluous GX services and using their paths to run services that benefit both UK residents and arriving visitors to these shores equally.

Keep the GX services, but lose the premium fare, and push tourists heading to Victoria to use them instead of clogging up other Southern services with baggage.

 

[Smitham]

Keep the GX services, but lose the premium fare, and push tourists heading to Victoria to use them instead of clogging up other Southern services with baggage.

This is spot on.

For the record, I am a "UK resident" and use GatEx everyday.

 

[Kite159]

This is spot on.

For the record, I am a "UK resident" and use GatEx everyday.

Not paying the premium price I hope

 

[Bald Rick]

Keep the GX services, but lose the premium fare, and push tourists heading to Victoria to use them instead of clogging up other Southern services with baggage.

And stop them at Croydon.

 

[tsr]

No doubt plenty got on at Gatwick, but it would have been by no means the majority.

Many moons ago I used to have a fair bit to do with Gatwick Airport station, and still indirectly deal with its passengers quite a lot - and I would dispute that assertion. You can easily double a passenger load at Gatwick Airport on a lot of off-peak services from the Horsham area, especially at the weekend or late in the evenings. Some of the most notorious late-runners used to have this overcrowding as a significant factor in the reasons for their delays - so far as I have been told by my Train Planning and Delay Attribution colleagues, it resulted in quite a few changes to the way pathing and recovery time is considered, and subtle things like the amount of time each train was displayed on the station CIS.

 

[jon0844]

Keep the GX services, but lose the premium fare, and push tourists heading to Victoria to use them instead of clogging up other Southern services with baggage.

This is definitely the best option IMO.

But the DfT is getting the revenue, so in this case it's not even GTR benefiting. It is doing what it has been told to do.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I think nottsnurse has misunderstood my point. The premium was for Gatwick Airport, not for Gatwick Express. So in a previously distance based fare structure Gatwick was “moved” a few yards north of Three Bridges. This applied for all services from the north (and form the south Horley applies). I can remember Class 73s on the Gat Exp trains which were certainly less empty than is the case now.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

PS and don’t stop them in Croydon. Southern would be fine (OK fine is a bit of an exaggeration but I am making a point) if the services could run on time and have fewer suitcases. I say this despite living in Croydon.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Surely the amount recuperated from the "express" £3.70 premium applied to GatX tickets is not enough to cover the lack of passengers using it. Anyone who isn't a completely clueless passenger will just spend the extra 5-10 minutes on a non-express service to save what might appear to be only a small amount of money. As we here all know, this means some of the Southern services are chock-a-block between Victoria and Gatwick as people try to avoid paying the surplus.

I don't believe that there should be a premium for an airport service when the only premium is the lack of any stops. What I do agree with, however, is providing train services where demand warrants it, and clearly there is a demand between London and its Airports. Get those people off the stopper/mainline services and on the express services. You'll reduce crowding and improve passenger sentiments for both those going to the airport as well as those who were inconvenienced by the masses that were trying to save a few quid by avoiding the express.

The reasons behind Heathrow's premium are different, but ultimately results in the same issues - people crowd the Tube to avoid the £6 or eye-watering £18 premium to use the airport tunnel or express respectively.

Stansted Airport seems to be the only one that gets it right. There is no obvious premium (beyond the typical prices of rail travel) being charged for an express service, and while I don't see it being filled to the brim, gets used plenty enough to justify its existence.

 

[coppercapped]

Surely the amount recuperated from the "express" £3.70 premium applied to GatX tickets is not enough to cover the lack of passengers using it. Anyone who isn't a completely clueless passenger will just spend the extra 5-10 minutes on a non-express service to save what might appear to be only a small amount of money. As we here all know, this means some of the Southern services are chock-a-block between Victoria and Gatwick as people try to avoid paying the surplus.

I don't believe that there should be a premium for an airport service when the only premium is the lack of any stops. What I do agree with, however, is providing train services where demand warrants it, and clearly there is a demand between London and its Airports. Get those people off the stopper/mainline services and on the express services. You'll reduce crowding and improve passenger sentiments for both those going to the airport as well as those who were inconvenienced by the masses that were trying to save a few quid by avoiding the express.

The reasons behind Heathrow's premium are different, but ultimately results in the same issues - people crowd the Tube to avoid the £6 or eye-watering £18 premium to use the airport tunnel or express respectively.
SNIP

It is only the perceived wisdom of people posting to this group that the Piccadilly Line is crowded by people avoiding the HConn or HEx services. There are perfectly legitimate reasons - not just to avoid paying HEX or HConn's fares - for using the Piccadilly to get to Heathrow. The Piccadilly does after all serve a different corridor into London which includes residential areas in south west London either directly or with one change at Acton Town and the residential, hotel and business areas between Hammersmith and South Kensington / Knightsbridge.

Look at it another way - HEx reduces the crowding of the Piccadilly Line by some 17,000 people each and every day. Isn't that something?

However the alternative and cheaper route argument is not one that can be made for the Gatwick Express services.

 

[Starmill]

Keep the GX services, but lose the premium fare, and push tourists heading to Victoria to use them instead of clogging up other Southern services with baggage.

This. A thousand times this.

It's so frustrating joining a London Victoria train at East Croydon and seeing the huge mass of suitcases with Gatwick luggage labels on them blocking the doors, when a 12 car passed non-stop through your platform at low speed just before your train and was carrying a large number of empty seats. It's just bananas.

 

[Starmill]

Stansted Airport seems to be the only one that gets it right. There is no obvious premium (beyond the typical prices of rail travel) being charged for an express service

There was, significantly, if you compare the cost with that of Audley End. There still is, a little, but Greater Anglia cut the fare from London (Liverpool Street) to Stansted Airport shortly after the New franchise began.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This. A thousand times this.

It's so frustrating joining a London Victoria train at East Croydon and seeing the huge mass of suitcases with Gatwick luggage labels on them blocking the doors, when a 12 car passed non-stop through your platform at low speed just before your train and was carrying a large number of empty seats. It's just bananas.

Yes, completely agreed.

Only "Any Permitted" tickets should be sold for journeys from London to Gatwick Airport, with that price reduced a bit to make the change revenue-neutral. Then Gatwick Express should be publicised heavily as the way to Gatwick - "the fastest trains to Gatwick Airport at no extra cost" plastered all over everywhere. And stop running the Brighton extensions as they negate the point.

This might require taking a bit of a Delay Repay hit by tweaking the timetable to make it true - presently I half recall that the Southern branded trains are in some cases quicker because they have no recovery time at Gatwick as this is not the end of their journey. What would ideally be the case would be if the planners didn't show the Southern trains at all for London-Gatwick journeys because they were never preferable.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

Keep the GX services, but lose the premium fare, and push tourists heading to Victoria to use them instead of clogging up other Southern services with baggage.

I seem to remember when I was a kid (before virgin won the franchise) this was the case, I seem to remember we often got the "express" from victoria to gatwick, and change onto a Horsham train, since it was quicker than the get a direct train from victoria.

 

[Starmill]

Surely the amount recuperated from the "express" £3.70 premium applied to GatX tickets is not enough to cover the lack of passengers using it.

Oyster / Contactless users are charged a lot more than £3.70 extra!

For those making a single journey between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport:

Gat Ex Gates: £19.80
Non Gat Ex Gates Peak: £14.70
Non Gat Ex Gates Off Peak: £8.30

This means that at 'off peak' times those passing through the Gat Ex gates are charged an premium of £5.10, and at 'peak' times they are charged an extra £11.15.

Those buying paper tickets, especially period returns, or those who get the online or group discount from the Gatwick Express website may well get a better deal. Those making a day return journey will be charged a lot more in many cases for using Oyster, although this is probably not that many people.

A Gatwick Airport to London Bridge Anytime Return is available at just £19.60. Someone who does not know about that option who just turns up at the Airport, taps in and jumps on the next Express, as the signage and staff much encourage them to do, even if it is not the next departure (!), will pay £39.60 for two Contactless singles where they could have had an Anytime Return for £19.60.

It's impossible to say how much some people are being overcharged by this, but of those that are there will be huge numbers paying more than £3.70 extra.

 

[BluePenguin]

What would ideally be the case would be if the planners didn't show the Southern trains at all for London-Gatwick journeys because they were never preferable.

Yes exactly! Don't display them in the journey planner at all apart from as calling point for searches for trains heading to destinations further afield.

It would also make sense for London bound trains from the coast to be set down only at Gatwick and pick up only coast bound. That way English airport travellers wanting to get home to London, Kent, Sussex or Hampshire can get on, without hoards of confused tourists who want London or Gatwick from cramming on with their massive suitcases, when the Gatwick Express caters much more to their needs such as having a lot better facilities for storing suitcases.

 

[Kite159]

Yes exactly! Don't display them in the journey planner at all apart from as calling point for searches for trains heading to destinations further afield.

It would also make sense for London bound trains from the coast to be set down only at Gatwick and pick up only coast bound. That way English airport travellers wanting to get home to London, Kent, Sussex or Hampshire can get on, without hoards of confused tourists who want London or Gatwick from cramming on with their massive suitcases, when the Gatwick Express caters much more to their needs such as having a lot better facilities for storing suitcases.

And what about those passengers wishing to interchange at Gatwick, maybe from a service from the coast to a North Downs train or a local stopping service to/from Horsham?

 

[BluePenguin]

And what about those passengers wishing to interchange at Gatwick, maybe from a service from the coast to a North Downs train or a local stopping service to/from Horsham?

Then that would be fine as they could get on any service at Gatwick that calls at Horsham. In the case of interchanging from a North Downs service or stopping train from Sussex or Kent, changing at Redhill might be easier as all Horsham stoppers and GWR services call there.

 

[sjoh]

This is a little tongue in cheek, but would there be anything legally stopping a third party from paying for adverts at Gatwick and Victoria advising passengers that GX and Southern are the same company and that they can use 'southern' tickets on GX?

I'll start the crowdfunding page

 

[IainG81]

I can recall as a child when going to Gatwick we always got the Eastbourne/Hastings service, would never consider getting Gatwick Express. Think i would still do the same now as they run on the same lines.