Eurostar not stopping at Ashford

[alex397]

I was due to travel on the Eurostar for a day trip to Paris from Ashford tomorrow. However, Eurostar informed me this evening that me that my train in both directions will not stop at Ashford, but will stop normally at St. Pancras and Ebbsfleet.
People travelling from Ashford can just go to Ebbsfleet instead, however my earliest local train would not get there in time, and Eurostar would not pay for a taxi to get there. So, I asked them to change the date of travel, which they have done no problem.

It was frustrating that they have given less than 24 hours notice about this, especially as it seems they knew about the problem in advance - for example, many trains this morning did not stop at Ashford. But, there are probably reasons for this, and Eurostar have been good at changing the date for my tickets.

Why would the Eurostar not be able to stop at Ashford? My only guess is that they are possibly short staffed, or maybe there is an issue with getting French border control there due to strikes in France? Eurostar have not given a reason.

 

[1D53]

Can the new e320's stop at Ashford yet? Perhaps it's been swapped from an e300 to e320, perhaps as a result of the French strikes and subsequent crew availability?

 

[alex397]

Can the new e320's stop at Ashford yet? Perhaps it's been swapped from an e300 to e320, perhaps as a result of the French strikes and subsequent crew availability?

The e320s are able to stop at Ashford - I caught one from there to Brussels last week.

 

[AlexNL]

Ashford International has been adjusted to receive the e320's*, but difficulties were encountered when the first e320's actually called there. The issue is under investigation, and e320's won't stop at Ashford until further notice.

* the KVB signalling system has been installed, and the platforms have been adjusted to continental gauge

 

[alex397]

Ashford International has been adjusted to receive the e320's*, but difficulties were encountered when the first e320's actually called there. The issue is under investigation, and e320's won't stop at Ashford until further notice.

* the KVB signalling system has been installed, and the platforms have been adjusted to continental gauge

Thanks for that.

So, its my understanding that there are issues with signalling and the new e320 trains? My e320 train last week seemed to operate fine though.
Hopefully it is sorted out before the day I do eventually travel from Ashford! Seems like a bit of a cock-up following the £10 million upgrade costs there.

 

[AlexNL]

It could be an issue which occurs intermittently, only on certain sets, or only under certain conditions. As long as NR and Eurostar are unsure about what the cause of the issue is, they'll choose the cautious side and won't run e320's into Ashford.

 

[alex397]

It could be an issue which occurs intermittently, only on certain sets, or only under certain conditions. As long as NR and Eurostar are unsure about what the cause of the issue is, they'll choose the cautious side and won't run e320's into Ashford.

Ok. Thats fair enough. I'd prefer that Eurostar cancel trains from Ashford rather than put people at risk if they're not sure what the issue is.
Eurostar have changed my date of travel to the 21st April, so hopefully its resolved by then (or even better, they swap the scheduled e320 for an e300 instead!)

 

[Warwick]

The new trains that Eurostar have got can't stop at Ashford? Are they automatic like the Victoria line tubes?

 

[GW43125]

The new trains that Eurostar have got can't stop at Ashford? Are they automatic like the Victoria line tubes?

Originally, the platforms at Ashford were signalled using the conventional AWS/TPWS system which the 374s can't pick up.

They've now put the French KVB system in which they can pick up, but as mentioned above it's hitting a few issues

 

[duesselmartin]

is the whole line KVB capable? Why is ECTS not used or am I mis-understanding something?

 

[GW43125]

HS1, when opened, was signalled with the TVM430 system (a different French system, better at higher speeds). KVB was used at St Pancras. These systems work very well, just remember that the now international bit at ashford was once part of the standard DC network, and as the 373s could pick up AWS-TPWS (from going into Waterloo), there was no point in upgrading ashford station.

 

[Warwick]

So there are different signals at Ashford but the train is driven - ergo - controlled by a driver. I thought signals were a way of regulating trains but the driver actually made the train start - go - stop.

 

[transmanche]

So there are different signals at Ashford but the train is driven - ergo - controlled by a driver. I thought signals were a way of regulating trains but the driver actually made the train start - go - stop.

KVB is a train protection train protection system which translates as Control of Speed by Beacons. In simple terms, without the beacons (or balises) to transmit the information to the driver's control desk, the driver has no idea what the permitted speed for that section is. As the e320s don't have AWS or TPWS, but do have KVB - it's easier to install KVB at Ashford than retrofit AWS/TPWS to the e320s.

 

[Warwick]

I thought that trainee drivers spent months learning the routes that they are going to drive trains which included all the different speeds on the lines. If there is a device fitted to the train which tells them that............what is all the months of training for?

 

[transmanche]

KVB is a train protection train protection system which translates as Control of Speed by Beacons. In simple terms, without the beacons (or balises) to transmit the information to the driver's control desk, the driver has no idea what the permitted speed for that section is. As the e320s don't have AWS or TPWS, but do have KVB - it's easier to install KVB at Ashford than retrofit AWS/TPWS to the e320s.

I thought that trainee drivers spent months learning the routes that they are going to drive trains which included all the different speeds on the lines. If there is a device fitted to the train which tells them that............what is all the months of training for?

OK, maybe I should re-phrase that:
"... without the beacons (or balises) to transmit the information to the driver's control desk, the train and the driver have no idea what the permitted speed for that section is."

The permitted speed is not the same as a speed limit. If there's a train in the section in front of you, the permitted speed will be 0km/h. If the permitted speed is exceeded and not reduced, the train control system will apply the brakes automatically.

As I mentioned, KVB is a train protection system (like AWS or TWPS), not a 'signalling' system.

 

[pdeaves]

I thought that trainee drivers spent months learning the routes that they are going to drive trains which included all the different speeds on the lines. If there is a device fitted to the train which tells them that............what is all the months of training for?

In very, very simple terms, the signalling/control system says 'you can go' but the driver still has to make the train go. Harder is 'you must stop/slow to such-and-such speed'; the driver must control the train at the right point and by the right amount to slow/stop in the right place.

 

[Warwick]

I'm totally confused now. So, a signal tells the driver that he can go, but these ballises tell the driver how fast he can go or tells him where to slow down. It's a sort of backseat driver electronic thing then. Which still begs the question, what are all of those months of training for if there's a device telling/advising the driver what speed to go at and where to slow down and stop?

 

[GW43125]

I'm totally confused now. So, a signal tells the driver that he can go, but these ballises tell the driver how fast he can go or tells him where to slow down. It's a sort of backseat driver electronic thing then. Which still begs the question, what are all of those months of training for if there's a device telling/advising the driver what speed to go at and where to slow down and stop?

With conventional signalling, we have coloured lights which tell us how long until we have to slow down.

With in-cab signalling, you are presented instead with a target speed. Instead of saying how far until you have to stop, you’re given a target speed until the next block. This replaces line side signals. For example, instead of a red signal you get a zero speed.

This webpage: http://www.railsigns.uk/info/tvm1/tvm1.html explains the TVM430 system.

 

[transmanche]

I'm totally confused now. So, a signal tells the driver that he can go, but these ballises tell the driver how fast he can go or tells him where to slow down. It's a sort of backseat driver electronic thing then. Which still begs the question, what are all of those months of training for if there's a device telling/advising the driver what speed to go at and where to slow down and stop?

Like I said it's a train protection system to prevent drivers from exceeding the permitted speed. On National Rail, systems such as AWS, TPWS (and ATP) do this job. In very, very simple terms; it's not about telling the driver what the speed limit is, it's about stopping the train from hitting the one in front! KVB does the same job, except there's an onboard computer that calculates what the maximum permitted speed is to make sure you stop at the next red signal. And just like TPWS will try to stop the train if the driver approaches a red signal too fast - KVB will do the same. It's just a different way of doing it, using different equipment.

This webpage: http://www.railsigns.uk/info/tvm1/tvm1.html explains the TVM430 system.

But TVM430 isn't relevant here. The system used at St Pancras and Ashford is KVB, not TVM 430. IIRC, KVB doesn't support in-cab signalling.

 

[AlexNL]

is the whole line KVB capable? Why is ECTS not used or am I mis-understanding something?

The Channel Tunnel and High Speed 1 use the TVM-430 continuous in-cab signalling system which is being used across France on their high speed lines. In the St. Pancras areas, the KVB signalling system is used. The French use this system on their conventional network - it is a point based train control system (comparable to TPWS).

The original Eurostar fleet was equipped with AWS and TPWS as it had to crawl through Kent, which uses those safety systems. When Eurostar ordered their Velaro fleet, they decided on not having the conventional British systems installed as they would see almost no use, except for the short bit to get to Ashford International. Thanks to pressure from Eurostar and various rail user groups, the infrastructure around Ashford International has been adjusted to be able to receive the new trains.

The original plan was to use ETCS for the short stretch of track between HS1 and Ashford. This turned out to be much complexer than initially anticipated, and thus KVB was chosen instead.

From a technical point of view, this makes much more sense. French classical lines have KVB which isn't going away soon, and St. Pancras has KVB which isn't going to go away soon either. ETCS would be an odd one along the HS1 route.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm totally confused now. So, a signal tells the driver that he can go, but these ballises tell the driver how fast he can go or tells him where to slow down. It's a sort of backseat driver electronic thing then. Which still begs the question, what are all of those months of training for if there's a device telling/advising the driver what speed to go at and where to slow down and stop?

KVB is a safety system, without which the train would not be allowed to run, just like the UK mainline where every train has to have AWS & TPWS or ATP.

 

[backontrack]

...and Eurostar would not pay for a taxi to get there.

Aren't they obliged to?

 

[alex397]

Aren't they obliged to?

In a live chat with them, they said they would not be able to.

 

[backontrack]

In a live chat with them, they said they would not be able to.

What reason did they give (if any)?

 

[alex397]

What reason did they give (if any)?

They did not give a reason. I should have asked them really, but I was more interested in them changing the dates for me, as even with a taxi it was still very inconvenient for me.

 

[alex397]

I wonder how long it will take to fix this? As my Paris trip was moved to next Saturday and is scheduled for an e320.

I guess its the same answer as 'how long is a piece of string?'

 

[alex397]

My train from Ashford to Paris, and return, tomorrow have been swapped to be worked with an E300.

 

[43096]

My train from Ashford to Paris, and return, tomorrow have been swapped to be worked with an E300.

And ES9141 1456 Brussels-London today (Saturday) has been set swapped from 373 to 374.

 

[westcoaster]

I believe that Eurostar drivers do not have much route knowledge in depth as a mainline driver does. But need to know multiple rule books.
As the computer highlights the speed he/she should go at all times.

 

[AlexNL]

Eurostar drivers have to know about the routes they sign, which can be high speed lines as well as conventional diversionary routes on the continent. These routes are signalled with lights on sticks and there's no in cab signalling.

They need to know where it's not safe to stop a train, where poor adhesion sites are, and so on. On top of that, they have to speak French to be able to communicate with French or Belgian signallers.