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West Coast Franchise speculation

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LNW-GW Joint

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Surely nobody can argue that diesel is preferable than using existing electrification where it exists? I haven't heard that one before?

The freight TOCs do argue that.
Which is why the WCML is full of class 66s grinding over Shap and Beattock, while class 90/92s sit rusting at Crewe.
They also consume valuable paths which could be accelerated with electrics.
 
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The Ham

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The freight TOCs do argue that.
Which is why the WCML is full of class 66s grinding over Shap and Beattock, while class 90/92s sit rusting at Crewe.
They also consume valuable paths which could be accelerated with electrics.

Isn't that partly to do with the lack of end to end electrified routes for frieght and so even where they do exist it's easier to use a diesel loco for everything than having a few electric locos that aren't used that much?

If there were more routes then they may start to consider switching to electric locos (assuming that they could be sure that they wouldn't be left needing a diesel loco rather than an electric one and loosing out to another).
 

driver_m

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The AC locos are hamstrung on the likes at the Ditton stuff as they can't shunt into the yard, so this is ideal territory for an 88. The trains that go to Southampton though will now have diesel as it isn't economic for them to swap over to AC like they used to at Crewe. Environmental concerns are always going to take second place at FL or DB if one of the other FOCs undercuts you using a 66, and you obviously can't go away from the WCML at Nuneaton with an AC loco.
 

pt_mad

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There's plenty of diesel on the ECML, perhaps more - the ECML operators have got far more diesel stock, at least.

But they're to be replaced on the ECML, with bi mode. Same for most of the GWR.

Why is the WCML left out with regards removing diesel running under the wires when the other two main lines, and the midland mainline in due course are both having replacements for this?

Nobody can argue the 222s on the MML are particularly old. But the plan is still bi mode.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I've just looked up the piece in Modern Railways. It's no more than a reader's letter saying:

So hardly an authoritative source.

I've also just checked our online travel portal which claims to give CO2 emissions by different mode. The rail planner gives Edinburgh to Bristol is 33kg by train versus 187kg for air and the air planner gives 135kg specifically for an EasyJet flight. I don't know the detail of how this is calculated but by the size of the margin the train would win even if it was only a quarter full (which is unlikely for a Voyager). For a diesel train or an aircraft CO2 correlates closely with energy consumption.
I'm afraid the calculations the travel portal has made are far off the mark. For example, if Ryanair flew that journey then, based on their average fleet statistics, it would produce approximately 34kg of CO2 per passenger. I very much doubt that a Voyager could match that.
 

The Ham

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But they're to be replaced on the ECML, with bi mode. Same for most of the GWR.

Why is the WCML left out with regards removing diesel running under the wires when the other two main lines, and the midland mainline in due course are both having replacements for this?

Nobody can argue the 222s on the MML are particularly old. But the plan is still bi mode.

There's an argument to be made that given the length involved and that the 221's are a micro fleet (although are minimised in as many factors as possible) that if someone else is buying a fleet of bimodal trains that there could be a case for a top up order to replace the 221's on the WCML (other than they'd need to be able to tilt, which there appears to be a lack of a train that can do that too).
 

edwin_m

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I'm afraid the calculations the travel portal has made are far off the mark. For example, if Ryanair flew that journey then, based on their average fleet statistics, it would produce approximately 34kg of CO2 per passenger. I very much doubt that a Voyager could match that.
Do you have a source for those statistics?
 

edwin_m

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pt_mad

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What about hooking a 91 up to a Voyager and dragging it at 125mph to Crewe? Or Scotland if booked Scotland?

I understand tilt isn't required on a driving loco, as the driver can anticipate the road and thus won't be tipped over out of surprise? Can this be verified by anyone?
 

dk1

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What about hooking a 91 up to a Voyager and dragging it at 125mph to Crewe? Or Scotland if booked Scotland?

I understand tilt isn't required on a driving loco, as the driver can anticipate the road and thus won't be tipped over out of surprise? Can this be verified by anyone?

The 91 would not be passed for IEP speeds. I don't think the drivers would accept that anyway. You are also looking at extra crewing for the attatch/detatchment of locos & all that goes with that type of antiquated working. Our railway & its infrastructure don't lend itself to that these days.
 

The Ham

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The 91 would not be passed for IEP speeds. I don't think the drivers would accept that anyway. You are also looking at extra crewing for the attatch/detatchment of locos & all that goes with that type of antiquated working. Our railway & its infrastructure don't lend itself to that these days.

You also have to consider the lease costs of the loco(s) which is likely to be significant, in which case the costs associated with a tilting bimodal train would probably start to look like good value.

I don't know how much a loco costs to lease, but let's say it's £300,000 a year and say you need two of them over a 15 year period that's £9 million (broadly the length of time that 221's could well so be in use, due to electrification or more likely needing to be replaced due to age).

Add in a 1,000 miles a day of track access charges and even at the lowest loco rate of 45p a mile that's another £2.5 million over those 15 years.

That's enough that even if you'd be paying 10% more in lease costs for tilting bimodal trains that it would still be better, even before you consider fuel costs (due to more efficient engines and a lighter train when under the wires which would need less electricity to move, and before anyone says anything about dragging fuel around you'd still be doing that with the 221's) extra maintenance costs, etc.

Then there's the fact that modern trains appear to be cheaper (at least in terms of maintenance costs) and so even with the extra costs of developing, designing and providing a new tilting bimodals train compared to current new trains they could still be comparable to the existing units and certainly cheaper than doing long electric loco drags from London to Crewe.
 

underbank

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Whatever the lease dates are for 221s and 390s will presumably have some effect on where and how long they stay. I suppose in theory a TOC could take them for the right price and run them wherever if the price was right.

"What's that, you'd give us £x millions to run 221s on the Whitby line? Oh... Go on then!"

;));))

Is there no possibility of the use of the 4 car Voyager sets in the Northern rural services, such as the Cumbrian Coast, Settle/Carlisle, Morecambe/Leeds lines which are currently run by Pacers/Sprinters and therefore uncomfortably long journey times not to mention over-crowded at times? I'm sure some decent quality trains with facilities would increase passenger numbers. Is gauging an issue - presumably OK for Settle/Carlisle, but maybe not for Cumbrian coast?
 

edwin_m

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A Voyager would be much more expensive to run on these services, due to being heavier and having engines designed for much faster running that would be inefficient at low speeds. The Voyager is also much less space-efficient so would need a longer formation or provide fewer seats than a Sprinter, increasing costs further and also creating possible problems at short platforms.
 

dk1

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Is there no possibility of the use of the 4 car Voyager sets in the Northern rural services, such as the Cumbrian Coast, Settle/Carlisle, Morecambe/Leeds lines which are currently run by Pacers/Sprinters and therefore uncomfortably long journey times not to mention over-crowded at times? I'm sure some decent quality trains with facilities would increase passenger numbers. Is gauging an issue - presumably OK for Settle/Carlisle, but maybe not for Cumbrian coast?

That's all going on at the moment with the class 195 cascade.
 

gsnedders

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Anyhow, yes it is comparing a modern aircraft with a circa 20 year old engine. But that's how the environment itself will view it. A modern aircraft Vs a 20 year old diesel train. It won't discriminate. The pollution is the pullution whether it's a fair comparison or not.
Realistically, if they're comparing easyJet aircraft, they're probably comparing a thirty year old aircraft design (with an engine design mostly dating to 40 years ago) to a twenty year old train.
 

pt_mad

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Will the travelling public themselves be satisfied with the Voyagers in the WCML for the next 8 years minimum?

They're not exactly luxurious for the UK's main trunk route.
 

Bletchleyite

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Will the travelling public themselves be satisfied with the Voyagers in the WCML for the next 8 years minimum?

They're not exactly luxurious for the UK's main trunk route.

They have an interior almost identical to the Pendolino. I bet some people don't even notice the difference.
 

Mathew S

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They have an interior almost identical to the Pendolino. I bet some people don't even notice the difference.
Very true. Most people, I think, don't really know what the difference is except for ones shorter than the other and often travels in pairs.

Seriously, though, from a (normal, not us) passenger perspective there really isn't any practical difference.
 

6Gman

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I've only been able to find VWC Voyager diagrams from 2015, so a bit out of date (although I think there's been few timetable changes since then). For 20 Voyagers, Monday - Thursday 18 were diagrammed, 1 spare and 1 maintenance. Of those 18, 5 didn't go off electrification in passenger service, 2 were coupled together all day and did nothing but Euston-Scotland, 1 unit ran singly all day and did nothing but Euston/West Mids-Scotland. All the others joined/split/went off electrification.

So you could probably stop complete-journeys-under-the-wires with a handful of extra electric units, but to argue the case for it on environmental grounds would be difficult - moving 5 units out of Britain's hundreds and hundreds of diesel units is a drop in the ocean.

I'm guessing the Voyagers Under Wires controversy on here must stem from Euston-Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh being probably the longest diesel on electrified lines route? There's plenty of diesel on the ECML, perhaps more - the ECML operators have got far more diesel stock, at least.

This. Most WC 221s run off the wires at some point.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This. Most WC 221s run off the wires at some point.

Roughly 10x221s work the Chester/Holyhead/Shrewsbury runs, and another 10 run Euston-Birmingham-Scotland under the wires.
But they all cycle round the various WCML 221 services, and work back to Central Rivers for maintenance.
One of them will still run under the wires to/from Blackpool even when the wires go live, as it interworks with a Holyhead service.
 

driver_m

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Do you know what should be done. Loads of cycle machines hooked up to giant capacitors in unused parts of stations such as the middle part of Rugby! Hook those capacitors to end terminals and feed those dirty voyagers with enough power to get them back and forwards all day, provided by punters who pay one pound a ticket provided they are provided to put in at least a weeks worth of hard graft. Whats nnot to love. And a bonus tilting ale for the biggest electricity provider .

Or we could just put actual iron board fitted 230s to solve all our stock problems .
 

centraltrains

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Is it not possible to just come up with a replacement engine for the voyagers which is more efficient if fuel consumption is such a big concern?
 

pt_mad

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Very true. Most people, I think, don't really know what the difference is except for ones shorter than the other and often travels in pairs.

Seriously, though, from a (normal, not us) passenger perspective there really isn't any practical difference.

The Voyager is narrower inside though. I believe the seats are narrower as well due to less width of carriage. And the toilets smell worse than Pendolinos. And obviously they vibrate quite a lot but nowt much can be done about that.
 

dk1

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The Voyager is narrower inside though. I believe the seats are narrower as well due to less width of carriage. And the toilets smell worse than Pendolinos. And obviously they vibrate quite a lot but nowt much can be done about that.

Lovely big picture windows on a Voyager & the engines become a gentle purr at speed 8-)
 

Bletchleyite

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The Voyager is narrower inside though. I believe the seats are narrower as well due to less width of carriage. And the toilets smell worse than Pendolinos. And obviously they vibrate quite a lot but nowt much can be done about that.

The seats are exactly the same.

Actually, except one thing, on the Voyagers they have a window side armrest, on the Pendolinos you rest your arm on that conduit thing instead.

Lovely big picture windows on a Voyager & the engines become a gentle purr at speed 8-)

Agreed, I prefer them over Pendolinos in terms of the interior, though there are some serious flaws like the unreliable reservations system, the bog smell and the pollution.
 

dk1

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The seats are exactly the same.

Actually, except one thing, on the Voyagers they have a window side armrest, on the Pendolinos you rest your arm on that conduit thing instead.



Agreed, I prefer them over Pendolinos in terms of the interior, though there are some serious flaws like the unreliable reservations system, the bog smell and the pollution.

Can't say the pollution thing really bothers me that much. We've got the top&tail 37s round here vice DMUs & with both engines powering up with its mere three coaches our drivers love to thrash them to the delight of the enthusiasts. Ok a bimode would be great on the WCML to allow services such as the Chesters to take electric power to Crewe but unfortunately they where not available at the time the Voyagers where purchased by VXC. We are where we are for now.
 

pt_mad

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I am quite surprised to see so many defending the Voyagers they do tend to have quite a bad name among train lovers :p
 
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