On-Board Food Facilities

[matacaster]

I was once advised that the reason most trolley services only offer cold food and a very modest range of sandwiches was the

-lack of refrigeration facilities on-board
-lack of storage space

Why is medium to long distance stock built without such facilities and how might the situation be addressed. Surely it can't be that difficult?

I'm thinking of being able to offer things like hot pies, curry and wider range of cold sandwiches.

A further problem is that even cold sandwiches taken on trolley currently have to be thrown away (Food Regs) if not sold making economics difficult. Thus, they don't set off with many and often sell out well before journeys end.

Discuss!

 

[CardiffKid]

Most large railway stations sell a wider variety of food and drink than a train ever could, which is another reason why the economics don't stack up.

I can't speak for every TOC and every route, but ATW loose money on their catering service - but it's specified by the 2003 franchise agreement, so it has to exist.

In terms of pies, curries etc then a microwave or oven would be needed which would also take up space which could otherwise be used for seats which is what passengers would prioritise. Not sure about you but I don't fancy a journey on a 158/175 etc (be it half an hour or three and a half hours) two rows back from someone eating a tikka masala.

I would love to see dedicated restaurant car on all intercity services or at least space in the buffett car for people to eat and drink similar to what Eurostar have on their class 373s - but I've also seen the chronic overcrowding at peak times so know that thats a non starter.

 

[DarloRich]

Why is medium to long distance stock built without such facilities and how might the situation be addressed. Surely it can't be that difficult?

I'm thinking of being able to offer things like hot pies, curry and wider range of cold sandwiches.

my question is why? Beyond a brew and a kit kat is anything else really needed on such a journey.? It isnt 1952. Just get to Greggs before you board.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the main thing that has changed is that food for purchase has changed massively. It used to be the case that a full meal is hot or you can have a curling-up sandwich. Nowadays there is a vast array of quality cold food for purchase which is every bit as good as a hot meal, so you buy it before you board and eat it when you feel like. No on board catering can match it.

 

[gordonthemoron]

and please, no takeaway McDonalds in first class like I have experienced on DB ICEs

 

[hexagon789]

I was once advised that the reason most trolley services only offer cold food and a very modest range of sandwiches was the

-lack of refrigeration facilities on-board
-lack of storage space

Why is medium to long distance stock built without such facilities and how might the situation be addressed. Surely it can't be that difficult?

I'm thinking of being able to offer things like hot pies, curry and wider range of cold sandwiches.

A further problem is that even cold sandwiches taken on trolley currently have to be thrown away (Food Regs) if not sold making economics difficult. Thus, they don't set off with many and often sell out well before journeys end.

Discuss!

It used to be quite common for medium and long-distance trains to have such things, scores of First Generation DMUs and EMUs wee built with Buffet Cars. The Swindon InterCity units were built with Buffet Cars for the Edinburgh to Glasgow shuttle at the time a 55-60 minute journey on the DMUs but you could have a hot meal if you wanted. Things seemed to change by the early 70s with scores of buffet cars on DMUs withdrawn from service or locked out of use and I think the next big change was the introduction of the InterCity 125s, the shorter journey times arguably lessening the need for heavy duty catering.

Certainly plenty of operators now have either only trolleys or no catering at all. The only exception to the decreasing provision of on-board catering is ScotRail's decision to have buffet counters in their HST sets on internal routes which have been trolley service only since about 1990.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I had a very nice steak on an HST from Edinburgh to Newark in 1990, in the restaurant car and I was travelling standard

 

[47802]

It used to be quite common for medium and long-distance trains to have such things, scores of First Generation DMUs and EMUs wee built with Buffet Cars. The Swindon InterCity units were built with Buffet Cars for the Edinburgh to Glasgow shuttle at the time a 55-60 minute journey on the DMUs but you could have a hot meal if you wanted. Things seemed to change by the early 70s with scores of buffet cars on DMUs withdrawn from service or locked out of use and I think the next big change was the introduction of the InterCity 125s, the shorter journey times arguably lessening the need for heavy duty catering.

Certainly plenty of operators now have either only trolleys or no catering at all. The only exception to the decreasing provision of on-board catering is ScotRail's decision to have buffet counters in their HST sets on internal routes which have been trolley service only since about 1990.

Well TPE catering is also set to improve with their new trains including a small kitchen, but like many people I very rarely buy anything other than a drink and a Kit Kat on the train, and will frequently buy sandwiches or Muc Dee etc. before getting on the train and major stations.

 

[hexagon789]

Well TPE catering is also set to improve with their new trains including a small kitchen, but like many people I very rarely buy anything other than a drink and a Kit Kat on the train, and will frequently buy sandwiches or Muc Dee etc. before getting on the train and major stations.

McDonalds and KFC seem to be the popular choice on ScotRail services but even on the short Edinburgh-Glasgow route the trolley is quite well used in general.

 

[chubs]

Tastes change.

Quality of food available at stations both hot and cold has improved massively over the past 10 years.

To cook a meal to a similar quality on the train would require a real kitchen, which most TOC's have deemed too expensive and impractical to provide. Anybody with working tastebuds would much rather buy something nice in a station before or after their journey than a soggy microwaved bacon roll or pie in a train buffet car.

 

[Mikey C]

Tastes change.

Quality of food available at stations both hot and cold has improved massively over the past 10 years.

To cook a meal to a similar quality on the train would require a real kitchen, which most TOC's have deemed too expensive and impractical to provide. Anybody with working tastebuds would much rather buy something nice in a station before or after their journey than a soggy microwaved bacon roll or pie in a train buffet car.

The sheer number of supermarket convenience stores has made a massive difference. Even if the station doesn't have one, most towns will have one within a short distance of the station where you can stock up for the journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

McDonalds and KFC seem to be the popular choice on ScotRail services but even on the short Edinburgh-Glasgow route the trolley is quite well used in general.

If I could rely on the presence of a trolley I'd have a cup of tea from it, easier not to have to faff about carrying it with bags etc. The thing is it's often unreliable, as is notifying its absence on the PIS.

For coffee you're unlikely to beat a proper manual espresso machine which even with the best of intentions is not going to be found on a trolley.

 

[hexagon789]

If I could rely on the presence of a trolley I'd have a cup of tea from it, easier not to have to faff about carrying it with bags etc. The thing is it's often unreliable, as is notifying its absence on the PIS.

For coffee you're unlikely to beat a proper manual espresso machine which even with the best of intentions is not going to be found on a trolley.

SBB and Trenitalia have trolley mounted espresso machines.

 

[jhy44]

I'd be inclined to agree with the above comments, economies of scale mean that food outlets at stations will always be able to offer food more cheaply than that same food served on a train, so even if every train did have a Pret or an Itsu carriage attached to it, if it's cheaper to get it on the station before you board, people would still do that.

If you were doing say a 3/4 hour train journey, you can easily make sure you buy enough food before you board.

SBB and Trenitalia have trolley mounted espresso machines.

Drinks provision, on the other hand, is something which could be improved.
Norwegian trains for example have really good-quality vending machines on their trains, which produce coffee of a far greater quality any anything a UK trolley sells, which as you rightly say, is pretty awful. I'd be delighted if CrossCountry were to install such a vending machine in every voyager.

 

[Bletchleyite]

SBB and Trenitalia have trolley mounted espresso machines.

They do, but they're not that good, and don't supply the "coffee milkshakes" that are popular in the UK.

For a trolley in my view it's best to pre-prepare quality filter coffee in a flask. Though the Ryanair filter cups are also rather good. I think TPE also use those.

 

[hexagon789]

They do, but they're not that good, and don't supply the "coffee milkshakes" that are popular in the UK.

I thought you were referring to hot coffee rather than iced coffee.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought you were referring to hot coffee rather than iced coffee.

I was referring to hot coffee, I was being a bit perjorative towards the likes of American style lattes. (The Italians have latte macchiato, but it's a much shorter drink).

 

[takno]

Tastes change.

Quality of food available at stations both hot and cold has improved massively over the past 10 years.

To cook a meal to a similar quality on the train would require a real kitchen, which most TOC's have deemed too expensive and impractical to provide. Anybody with working tastebuds would much rather buy something nice in a station before or after their journey than a soggy microwaved bacon roll or pie in a train buffet car.

The quality of the heated sandwiches is pretty variable across operators. GWR charge a fortune and make a complete mess of it, whereas VTEC do a pretty good job, heating in a combi oven so things are crisper, and doing a more interesting range of sandwiches. Certainly I tend not to bother departing from Kings Cross where I can get a good takeaway Japanese food bowl, but even Edinburgh is mostly restricted to pies and sandwiches which the train sandwiches are an improvement on.

Once you get into proper meal territory, something that's been microwaved on the train isn't a great deal worse than the limp indifferent rubbish you get in most chain Italians. I'd be quite keen on that as an option.

 

[jopsuk]

If you want more storage space and equipment, you lose seats.

 

[James James]

SBB and Trenitalia have trolley mounted espresso machines.

Those SBB trolleys are also disappearing from around the network, will be completely gone by 2021.

From what I can remember it's just a nespresso machine. Better than most people that try to operate an espresso machine, but not a touch on a really good espresso.

 

[hexagon789]

Those SBB trolleys are also disappearing from around the network, will be completely gone by 2021.

From what I can remember it's just a nespresso machine. Better than most people that try to operate an espresso machine, but not a touch on a really good espresso.

I haven't actually tried it I just rembering thinking it looked like an espresso machine. Are SBB doing away with catering trolleys full stop then?

 

[Clip]

Tastes change.

Quality of food available at stations both hot and cold has improved massively over the past 10 years.

To cook a meal to a similar quality on the train would require a real kitchen, which most TOC's have deemed too expensive and impractical to provide. Anybody with working tastebuds would much rather buy something nice in a station before or after their journey than a soggy microwaved bacon roll or pie in a train buffet car.

It doesnt have to be poor though nor need a proper kitchen - Modular cookware could be place in every other carriage for pre-prepared food to be reheated but its the space it takes up that makes it not possible - food quality of ready to eat meals has increased massively

 

[James James]

I haven't actually tried it I just rembering thinking it looked like an espresso machine. Are SBB doing away with catering trolleys full stop then?

Last I heard: yes, completely gone. But: they're planning to expand the number of restaurants, and are planning to add at-seat service in one 1st class carriage on trains with restaurants. I don't actually know if that means they'll be adding restaurants to new routes though, or if it just means that some trains might end up with 2 restaurants (that would make sense on the planned 16 carriage double-decker formations). There are a few services that are regional (stop every 10-15 minute) but that still end up covering 3-hour journeys, so perhaps those will be upgraded from IR to IC and given a restaurant?

The selection of food and drinks at most stations is already rather good, I don't think there many stations with no options whatsoever where trains that previously had trolleys would have stopped. The numbers suggested most people don't use the trolley, i.e. the loss is minimal - and it's worth noting that most people will be on the train for not much more than 30 minutes. The long-distance IC's have restaurants, the loss of the trolley doesn't affect those much.

I imagine not having to deal with ticket barriers while carrying hot drinks or food might affect the equation too.

 

[hexagon789]

Last I heard: yes, completely gone. But: they're planning to expand the number of restaurants, and are planning to add at-seat service in one 1st class carriage on trains with restaurants. I don't actually know if that means they'll be adding restaurants to new routes though, or if it just means that some trains might end up with 2 restaurants (that would make sense on the planned 16 carriage double-decker formations). There are a few services that are regional (stop every 10-15 minute) but that still end up covering 3-hour journeys, so perhaps those will be upgraded from IR to IC and given a restaurant?

The selection of food and drinks at most stations is already rather good, I don't think there many stations with no options whatsoever where trains that previously had trolleys would have stopped. The numbers suggested most people don't use the trolley, i.e. the loss is minimal - and it's worth noting that most people will be on the train for not much more than 30 minutes. The long-distance IC's have restaurants, the loss of the trolley doesn't affect those much.

I imagine not having to deal with ticket barriers while carrying hot drinks or food might affect the equation too.

At least they are retaining the restaurants.

 

[takno]

If you want more storage space and equipment, you lose seats.

As I understand it you can't put seats right up to the front of a Voyager or Pendo anyway, so you can just put the galley in there, as XC do.

 

[chubs]

food quality of ready to eat meals has increased massively

I strongly disagree. It has improved, but it's still utter garbage compared to a freshly cooked meal.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I can't speak for every TOC and every route, but ATW loose money on their catering service - but it's specified by the 2003 franchise agreement, so it has to exist.

It was added into the franchise as an extra offer by the bidder , and accepted , as the additional subsidy for the breadth of service was remarkably good value. Apart from the obvious benefits ,a good source of staff recruitment one gathers.

All train catering generally loses money ....

 

[Clip]

I strongly disagree. It has improved, but it's still utter garbage compared to a freshly cooked meal.

You cant strongly disagree with my statement then agree with it - thats just confusing.

 

[route101]

Was travelling from Bristol Temple Meads and only Whs Smith open on Sunday morning at 730am. Surprised theres not an Marks atthe station . As i was hungry i made do for bacon baguette on GWR , was a 800 so at seat , so was brought from the kitchen . It was dear at £4.50 but not soggy .

 

[gallafent]

Though the Ryanair filter cups are also rather good. I think TPE also use those.

I had a coffee from the trolley on GWR the other day which was a strange filter cup thing full of coffee grounds, which could be the same sort of thing. Have forgotten the brand. The coffee was hugely better than the execrable stuff which comes out of the espresso machines in the little end-of-coach express café thingy on the HSTs. I nearly drank it wrongly though …