Pulling of the emergency handle

[Bletchleyite]

I've pulled the emergency stop on a circle line train The guidelines seem to suggest that I shouldn't have. A mother and small child managed to find themselves on opposite sides of the doors as they closed. I pulled the handle before the train started to move. Would you have done the same?

Yes, absolutely. A young child left unsupervised (though unintentionally) in a big city is a serious issue to their safety.

 

[DavyCrocket]

thats clearly not true. Its only a few years since a guy was dragged into a tunnel and killed after a tube driver chose to ignore an alarm on his departing train, intending to investigate at the next station. Chap was trapped in a door.

It clearly is true.

But where is your Evidence?

 

[AlterEgo]

thats clearly not true. Its only a few years since a guy was dragged into a tunnel and killed after a tube driver chose to ignore an alarm on his departing train, intending to investigate at the next station. Chap was trapped in a door.

The last incident anything like that I can find in the news occurred in 1993.

Are you thinking of something more recent?

 

[randyrippley]

The last incident anything like that I can find in the news occurred in 1993.

Are you thinking of something more recent?

Perhaps I am thinking of that -I can't find any reference to it online at the moment so maybe it is that 1993 event
At the time the press reported quite specifically that the underground had a general policy of not stopping if a train was partially in a tunnel, and that the driver took that literally, ignored/overrode the alert and continued to the next station with the trapped passenger killed.

 

[Bromley boy]

thats clearly not true. Its only a few years since a guy was dragged into a tunnel and killed after a tube driver chose to ignore an alarm on his departing train, intending to investigate at the next station. Chap was trapped in a door.

I believe this varies by line. Some of the ATO lines are equipped with trainstops on the platform which dump the brake immediately.

On the mainline instructions (at least at my TOC) are that if the passcom sounds when any part of the train is in a station the driver must immediately apply the emergency brake. The override is intended to be used to prevent a train stopping in an obviously inappropriate place such as tunnel, viaduct, embankment etc.

 

[randyrippley]

It's not all about getting to the hospital quickly though, these days. If you're having a heart attack, you need a paramedic or first responder with a defib to keep you alive long enough to get to a hospital. In many/most cases, the patient is stabilised at the scene and only transported to a hospital once stabilised. Even the tiniest of villages these days have a defib with trained first responders. By the time your pendolino has got to Preston, the patient is probably long dead if he's been given no medical treatment for the past hour. So, whilst an emergency stop is not likely to be the right thing to do, pulling into the next station where professional medical help is available is probably better than just continuing to the next "big" station an hour away. (Do most main line stations have defibs either on site or nearby??).

Agreed, but the real issue is which is the first place you can get an ambulance. That is not necessarily the next station

 

[NorthernSpirit]

It's not all about getting to the hospital quickly though, these days. If you're having a heart attack, you need a paramedic or first responder with a defib to keep you alive long enough to get to a hospital. In many/most cases, the patient is stabilised at the scene and only transported to a hospital once stabilised. Even the tiniest of villages these days have a defib with trained first responders. By the time your pendolino has got to Preston, the patient is probably long dead if he's been given no medical treatment for the past hour. So, whilst an emergency stop is not likely to be the right thing to do, pulling into the next station where professional medical help is available is probably better than just continuing to the next "big" station an hour away. (Do most main line stations have defibs either on site or nearby??).

Wouldn't there be any trained first aiders / paramedics travelling onboard?

I recall one incident where a panic striken woman asked the whole coach I was travelling in if there was anyone who was a first aider or a paramedic onboard - I'm guessing that someone has had a heart attack. I suggested getting the guard as they'll know what to do and may well be trained into first aid. The casualty was taken off at Leeds, however had it been in a more rural location such as Dent or Garsdale, then I no doubt think that an air ambulance would have been called at first resort. Makes you wonder how they deal with such emergencies on thr Far North Line?

If a passenger either opposite or next to me was having some sort of medical episode, the first thing I would do would be to ensure the person is OK and if so if it was safe enough to put them into recovery position (if required), I'd then ask a couple of other passengers to stay with the casualty whilst I'd go and locate the guard, if I couldn't find the guard I'd pull the emergency handle.

 

[Bromley boy]

I suggested getting the guard as they'll know what to do and may well be trained into first aid.

The guard will not be first aid trained. They would possibly make a PA announcement for any medically trained passengers to make themselves known, and would arrange for an ambulance to be called and for the train to stop at an appropriate location.

if I couldn't find the guard I'd pull the emergency handle.

If someone is having a medical episode you will, in most cases, be better off waiting until you reach a station. As a DOO driver if I had a pass com go off I would likely stop the train immediately, go back to investigate, reset it. This could take 10-15 minutes and is 10-15 minutes an ill passenger probably couldn’t afford.

 

[185143]

I've pulled Call for aid passcoms twice.

First time was in the bog on a 185 when I pulled the door handle to get out on it came off in my hand.

Second time was when I was (again on TPE) waiting to alight with a wheelchair user and the station we boarded at forgot to phone ahead to get us off-and we were about to be carted off to Liverpool.

 

[mark-h]

The guard will not be first aid trained

Is that the case at all TOCs? I would have thought that they would have received at least First Aid at Work training (which takes 3 days).

 

[Dieseldriver]

Is that the case at all TOCs? I would have thought that they would have received at least First Aid at Work training (which takes 3 days).

Nope. Somehow it's legal to have a train with 1000 passengers on board without a representative of the company who is trained in first aid present.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A door flew open on a 4EPB , Blackheath bound around North Kent E Junction one day in 1979 - sitting in the next bay - I reached up and pulled the red chain hard - nothing - so went back another bay and had a go. Driver dumped the brakes and we ground to a stop in a heap.

This slammed the door shut - the (fearless) guard came long - reset the indicator and we had a conversation at Lewisham - he locked the door OOS , and we exchanged details . When he realised I was off duty staff - he stopped writing. Train carried on about 9 mins down towards Dartford. Job done.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

My knowledge of train braking systems and communication cords is limited to anything pre 1988.

I assumed that nowadays when you "pull the cord" or emergency handle or whatever that it only communicates with the driver, as on TfL?? With the exception of stopping a train from starting from a station, the decision is best left to the traincrew rather than a passenger I would have thought. A lot of emergencies are better off dealt with at a station than in the middle of nowhere.

 

[island]

Perhaps I am thinking of that -I can't find any reference to it online at the moment so maybe it is that 1993 event
At the time the press reported quite specifically that the underground had a general policy of not stopping if a train was partially in a tunnel, and that the driver took that literally, ignored/overrode the alert and continued to the next station with the trapped passenger killed.

Was that a Thameslink core service?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As most of us know - pulling the cord was an advice to the driver - he / she could endeavour to try and stop in a suitable location - not on a viaduct , across a junction etc ...

Unlike on the old Northern line type of trains , back in the 1970's or before - when observed a guard pull the red handle and the train more or less stopped in a heap in a few yards - he had spotted a drunk being dragged along after giving the proceed bell signal , but was carefully and properly observing the platform.

 

[randyrippley]

Was that a Thameslink core service?

No, an underground service

 

[BestWestern]

Nope. Somehow it's legal to have a train with 1000 passengers on board without a representative of the company who is trained in first aid present.

Comes down to cost, liability and..... delays! Cost of training, liability if the first aid goes wrong, and the potential for delays to occur if the traincrew are occupied dealing with a casualty rather than communicating with the signaller, control etc and getting the train moving. Having said that, certainly at some TOCs basic first aid training is available, or even an 'app' is loaded onto company phones, but getting stuck in certainly isn't mandatory. In the majority of cases there'll be somebody travelling who's better placed to do it.

 

[Chris M]

In contrast I believe that every Underground driver and member of platform staff is first aid trained.

 

[BestWestern]

In contrast I believe that every Underground driver and member of platform staff is first aid trained.

That's interesting. And yet a 'professional' response could reasonably be expected to be amost immediate in many cases.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In contrast I believe that every Underground driver and member of platform staff is first aid trained.

I'm a big supporter of more first aid training generally. I certainly think it should be mandatory for customer-facing staff in any industry.

 

[sbt]

I'm conflicted about this. I realise that for a lot of conditions getting to the next station is the wisest course of action. However I was told, after what was initially believed to be a heart Attack which I 'soldiered on' through, in no uncertain terms by my GP that if it happened again I was to get help ASAP. My understanding is that if CPR is required the sooner it is started the greater the chance of survival.

It turned out to be a Heart Malfunction BTW, just not one that is life threatening.

With regard to training my attitude is that it would be good if staff were trained to recognise what to do, in terms of things like continuing immediately to the next station, calling for medical assistance from passengers etc, if presented with various symptoms. My scare happened on a station but if I was on a train and it really was what was feared then getting CPR started could have been the difference between me living and dieing (at least as I understand it). Then I should have been got to professional care ASAP.

It is unfair to staff to place them in a situation where they might have to make life or death decisions without guidance. Maybe something along the lines of what the RNLI use, which differs substantially from the First Aid at Work syllabus would be appropriate. Basically diagnosis is downplayed, there are cards with 'check for this', 'if you see that' and instructions like 'call for helicopter', 'make best speed for shore', 'transport to shore with minimum disturbance to casualty' etc. The little I have picked up is that it is as much focused on managing the overall situation in scenarios where external help isn't necessarily a short distance away as it is on treating the patient.

I suspect what staff could do with is guidance on things like making the decision on 'stop and investigate', 'call for passenger assistance', 'continue to next booked stop', 'continue to next track access point' etc. They are much better off managing the overall situation and making use of their railway knowledge whilst, at least ideally, passengers (preferably medically trained, if they can be found) carry out any treatment than getting stuck in, losing the big picture and being less able to interact with the rest of the railway.

 

[Dstock7080]

In contrast I believe that every Underground driver and member of platform staff is first aid trained.

Unfortunately not true of LU drivers, stopped being basic First Aid trained some years ago.

 

[mark-h]

The strange thing is that the legislation only covers the duty of an employer to their employees not to their customers-

The Regulations do not place a legal duty on employers to make first-aid provision for non-employees such as the public or children in schools. However, HSE strongly recommends that non-employees are included in an assessment of first-aid needs and that provision is made for them

------

It does seem a bit strange to me that "safety critical" staff are not first aid trained.