Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[td97]

The guard told me the other week that the Manchester to Hull service would be 6 coach permanently soon. When it's only 3 it's sometimes very difficult to get on at Leeds at commuter peak time.

Probably in May when they get their sub-leased units back from Northern

 

[nr758123]

Initially, of the Hull-Manchester trains only a few peak services will have six cars, and even this is dependent on platform lengthening at Slaithwaite & Mossley. Not all the units sub-leased to Northern will be coming back to TPE at the timetable change.

 

[IanXC]

Can I remind members that this is an Infrastructure thread, for discussion of the Transpennine Route Upgrade programme, and not a timetable thread, there are plenty of suitable threads for discussion this May's timetable in the relevant sub forum.

 

[TBirdFrank]

So today I have mainly been doing a circular tour so as to visit the Kirkby Stephen Easter Vehicle Rally, and very excellent it was too, riding lots of AEC engined variants - and that's a bit of a bugger when I am a Leyland man.

The trip north by TPE 350 and Northern 158 was pleasant, well serviced by friendly capable staff, and generally unremarkable - except that it took three and a half hours when I can drive it in under two. We discovered that the service over the S and C is so poor that if you don't leave by seven p.m. you will be there all night.

The return run to Leeds was similarly unremarkable, and almost empty, but the volunteers had all gone home and there was no trolley.

However - and here we go - on arrival back at Leeds it was the usual Saturday night shambles - and then some. We had intended catching the 21.09 back to Piccadilly where we leave our car because the Stalybridge provision is so poor, even before the coming massacre of our services - so we know all about driving west to go east and vice versa at night.

Checking before arrival at Leeds we found the 20.41 was travelling twenty minutes behind the 21.09. This turned out to be our trusty friends the football loonies, who it appears, are incapable of kicking a pig's bladder about without engaging in tribal warfare afterwards. Tough if you had a plane to catch - train cancelled at Newcastle but running later in its path - don't know how.

Accordingly the 21.09 albeit six cars was trying to carry two train loads, and we took one look at it and walked away. The Yorkshire Saturday night crowd are a law unto themselves and I was not prepared to spend even ten minutes in their company - let alone an hour. I sincerely hope the train was declassified!

So at 21.28 in rolled the 20.41 with an acceptable loading but now terminating at Piccadilly - airport passengers please note. So we arrived back at Piccadilly at around 22.30 with the guard helpfully alerting passengers to delay repay. We paid our reduced bank holiday car parking fee and drove home - where if we had taken a car to Kirkby Stephen we would have arrived home about two hours before we did by rail.

The best and the worst of the day were both supplied at the hands of TPE. It must be hard to be so good, and so bad all at the same time, but for the long suffering passengers I know which one stays in the mind longest.

Perhaps TPE should send the evening's bill to Rafa at St James' Park.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So today I have mainly been doing a circular tour so as to visit the Kirkby Stephen Easter Vehicle Rally, and very excellent it was too, riding lots of AEC engined variants - and that's a bit of a bugger when I am a Leyland man.

The trip north by TPE 350 and Northern 158 was pleasant, well serviced by friendly capable staff, and generally unremarkable - except that it took three and a half hours when I can drive it in under two. We discovered that the service over the S and C is so poor that if you don't leave by seven p.m. you will be there all night.

The return run to Leeds was similarly unremarkable, and almost empty, but the volunteers had all gone home and there was no trolley.

However - and here we go - on arrival back at Leeds it was the usual Saturday night shambles - and then some. We had intended catching the 21.09 back to Piccadilly where we leave our car because the Stalybridge provision is so poor, even before the coming massacre of our services - so we know all about driving west to go east and vice versa at night.

Checking before arrival at Leeds we found the 20.41 was travelling twenty minutes behind the 21.09. This turned out to be our trusty friends the football loonies, who it appears, are incapable of kicking a pig's bladder about without engaging in tribal warfare afterwards. Tough if you had a plane to catch - train cancelled at Newcastle but running later in its path - don't know how.

Accordingly the 21.09 albeit six cars was trying to carry two train loads, and we took one look at it and walked away. The Yorkshire Saturday night crowd are a law unto themselves and I was not prepared to spend even ten minutes in their company - let alone an hour. I sincerely hope the train was declassified!

So at 21.28 in rolled the 20.41 with an acceptable loading but now terminating at Piccadilly - airport passengers please note. So we arrived back at Piccadilly at around 22.30 with the guard helpfully alerting passengers to delay repay. We paid our reduced bank holiday car parking fee and drove home - where if we had taken a car to Kirkby Stephen we would have arrived home about two hours before we did by rail.

The best and the worst of the day were both supplied at the hands of TPE. It must be hard to be so good, and so bad all at the same time, but for the long suffering passengers I know which one stays in the mind longest.

Perhaps TPE should send the evening's bill to Rafa at St James' Park.

Some of my fellow Huddersfield Town fans kicking off and causing a cancellation is shameful, but it's hardly TPE's fault!*
They managed to find a spare unit (presumably off Leeman Rd. Depot in York) to prevent complete chaos in Leeds. Informing passengers about delay-repay is to be commended as many are unaware.

*=Nor is it Rafa Benitez's fault, incidentally.

 

[Bantamzen]

Clearly the member from Baildon does not have a decent knowledge of the other side of the hill and it's problems.

Just a few facts: the area is well populated and whilst served by a number of stations, they all in the main lack one basic thing...car parking spaces. So the area may be "well served by a number of stations and routes" but the access to these with the lack of parking and continually reducing local bus services to access these does cause a problem. The motorways and main roads in the area are extremely congested. The suggestion of a park and ride/train facility at Guide Bridge is therefore made with merit.
The recent suggestion of extending Metrolink from Ashton to Stalybridge, whilst a wonderful thought, will come up against the lack of parking and local bus services as well. The area around Stalybridge Station/town centre already lacks car parking capacity as similarly does Ashton, where the Council are building on former town centre car parks.

There are plenty of much more densely populated areas that have little or no parking at stations. Try finding huge car parks along say the Aire or Wharfe lines, you'll find that quite a few have very little parking indeed. That doesn't mean that they could justify huge new parkways such as Tbird suggested is needed at Stalybridge or Guide Bridge. NR / TPE / Northern et al have much bigger priorities to tackle than having to worry about a local business person annoyed that they are not snapping up their idea so they can make a profit from land they have bought.

 

[snowball]

The new Enhancements Delivery Plan update is now out:

https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/EDP-March-2018.pdf

Trans-Pennine is on pages 51-2 (with the associated "Intermediate Interventions" on 53-5).

It confirms that the GRIP 3 report submitted to DfT in December was designed on the assumption that Vic to Stalybridge would already have been completed under the NW programme.

For any the electrification options, the project’s western boundary meets the extent of North of England Programmes LNW (CR005) at Stalybridge. (Subject to agreement through change control, the DfT are seeking to instruct Network Rail to consider options to enable the operation of electric traction and/or bi-mode stock between Guide Bridge and Stalybridge, and Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge, in addition to the routes listed above.)

There now seems to be only one new grid feed in Yorks rather than two (the Stalybridge one is happening anyway):

• Consideration of options for a fully or partial electrified route to enable the
operation of electric traction and/or bi-mode stock between the following
points:
̶ Stalybridge to Leeds;
̶ Leeds to York; and
̶ Leeds to Selby; and which will include
̶ A new traction power feeder station east of Leeds to support the electrified route.

 

[wellhouse]

Seems strange that Network Rail are proposing platform extensions to accommodate the few 4-car Northern Class 150 services, but not 6-car TPE Class 185 services.

https://www.examiner.co.uk/news/wes...planned-marsden-slaithwaite-mirfield-14464315

In the planning documents Network Rail say: “As part of the timetable improvements to be introduced in Winter 2018/9 Northern are seeking to increase the number of coaches on local services to two sets of class 150 diesel multiple units and to cater for this increased length of train it is necessary to lengthen the current platforms by varying degrees.”

 

[nr758123]

There's some sort of fix whereby 6-car 185s will be able to operate from the lengthened (circa 100m) platforms. I didn't feel the need to understand the technicalities.

Best guess is that the platforms are being lengthened in the short term by the minimum amounts in order to allow 4 carriage 150s & 6 carriage 185s, but that in the longer term TRU could involve realigning the tracks and completely rebuilding Marsden, Slaithwaite and Mirfield stations.

 

[CdBrux]

In the ideal world I don't suppose TPE would actually call at those stations

 

[Spartacus]

There's some sort of fix whereby 6-car 185s will be able to operate from the lengthened (circa 100m) platforms. I didn't feel the need to understand the technicalities.

Best guess is that the platforms are being lengthened in the short term by the minimum amounts in order to allow 4 carriage 150s & 6 carriage 185s, but that in the longer term TRU could involve realigning the tracks and completely rebuilding Marsden, Slaithwaite and Mirfield stations.

Yeah, no point lengthening platforms longer than they need to be when they might have to be totally rebuilt before too long anyway. I think all the extensions are to be the wooden type, which are easy enough to extend again even if the stations aren't moved.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Extensions of wooden construction under construction as we speak...

Well not quite, nobody working on them on this sunny Sunday evening: can't say I blame them!

 

[Class 170101]

A possible hand grenade has been thrown in today, a tweet from Lilian Greenwood MP suggesting the Transpennine upgrade is under threat linked to the Sunday Times. (I can't post the full article but if someone has the full article please feel free to upload).
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-pennine-rail-upgrade-under-threat-7bsrnn67g

 

[bbrez]

Said article in full.

The northern powerhouse faces another hammer blow as ministers prepare to ditch plans to electrify the railway between Manchester and Leeds.

In a move that will spark outrage across Yorkshire and Lancashire, Whitehall officials are understood to have ruled that upgrading the trans-Pennine route to run electric trains, rather than diesel, is poor value for money.

The conclusion is understood to have come from a Network Rail study. The decision last summer by Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, to order hybrid electric and diesel trains for other routes in Wales, the north and the Midlands, had stoked fears that the trans-Pennine project was also doomed.

Insiders said the huge cost of fixing electric cables to the rock of the Pennines, along with raising bridges, has sent the project soaring well above its £290m estimate in 2011.

Business and civic leaders across the north have united in recent months to demand more investment in transport, with upgrading the trans-Pennine line a priority.

It could force another humiliating Commons appearance for Grayling, in which he would have to admit a core policy will not be delivered.

Lilian Greenwood, chairwoman of the transport select committee, said: “Just last week the transport committee reported that there is strong evidence electrification remains the current optimal solution on heavily used parts of the railway and called on the government to work with the industry to reduce costs.

“We noted that regions outside London feel they are not getting their fair share of investment and without government action to directly address this . . . regional disparities will widen.

“ If trans-Pennine electrification is cancelled, people across the north will conclude that the government has officially abandoned the northern powerhouse and any claim of credibility on the environment.”

Ditching electrification would also scupper plans to send freight through the Pennines, connecting docks at Liverpool, Teesport, Immingham and Hull.

The Department for Transport said no decision had been made yet, adding: “We are committed to improving journeys on the trans-Pennine route.”

 

[HSTEd]

As expected.

Every electrification project that has not got shovels in the ground will be cancelled.

 

[Chester1]

These type of stories have been circulating for a long time and the much predicted cancellation has not happened yet. I think they will not cancel it out right, it would be political suicide. They have not cancelled Wigan-Lostock yet for instance but have not set a date for doing it. That sort of fudge is much more likely than full cancellation. The section between Victoria and Stalybridge has been mostly gauge cleared already and is relatively short. It is technically part of a different scheme to transpennine electrification but can easily be sold to the public as part of the project, as can wiring both unelectrified lines from the ECML to Leeds. That will buy a couple of years before a decision would need to be made on Stalybridge to Leeds and both Thersea May and Chris Grayling must know that it will then be someone elses decision to make.

 

[snowball]

These type of stories have been circulating for a long time and the much predicted cancellation has not happened yet.

What's different is that we are getting close to the date at which detailed proposals for TP are likely to be announced. The GRIP 3 report (allegedly with several options) went to DfT in December and an announcement is likely before Parliament breaks up on 24 July. Any long sections of the route that don't get electrification authorised this month are likely to remain unelectrified for at least 20 years.

 

[MarkyT]

What's different is that we are getting close to the date at which detailed proposals for TP are likely to be announced. The GRIP 3 report (allegedly with several options) went to DfT in December and an announcement is likely before Parliament breaks up on 24 July. Any long sections of the route that don't get electrification authorised this month are likely to remain unelectrified for at least 20 years.

Much as I'm a fan of transpennine electrification, politically if it's a case of either that or the platforms 15/16 project I think Piccadilly is by far the more important scheme in the short to medium term for overall network performance. At least bi-modes will allow more wiring to be added in the future to reduce diesel running distance once costs are under better control. I would however strongly advocate partial extension of wires beyond Victoria going east to (say) Rochdale and Stalybridge so Northern emus on stopping services from the west can all have somewhere to go across Manchester under the wires without having to turn back at Victoria. That would also reduce diesel mileage for the bi-modes.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Perhaps TPE should send the evening's bill to Rafa at St James' Park.

Let's not. Rafa is quite a regular on our services and besides, It's the visiting hoards that stir the trouble I often find, especially from a certain north western city based red wearing team that was founded in a railway depot that appear to have the worst offenders

A possible hand grenade has been thrown in today, a tweet from Lilian Greenwood MP suggesting the Transpennine upgrade is under threat linked to the Sunday Times.

someone is seeing poor value for money given the cost, but given that the power supply is already in Stalybridge and the cancellation of the wires from staly to vicc means the fitting of what is essentially an extension cable to power the Bolton lines is probably costing almost as much as the OHLE would have done, and given the track record of seeing project after project being delayed, paused or cancelled then I'm not really surprised. London based political decision makers think The north is clearly wasting money that can be spent in London instead even tho it's these pausing and cancellation decisions on projects already started that is causing money to be wasted (think farce with A1 improvement works and it's not just the railway that is being affected)

 

[The_Engineer]

Any long sections of the route that don't get electrification authorised this month are likely to remain unelectrified for at least 20 years.

That's a bold statement - on what basis have you decided that?? A change of government may bring a change of priorities…...

 

[transmanche]

his turned out to be our trusty friends the football loonies, who it appears, are incapable of kicking a pig's bladder about without engaging in tribal warfare afterwards.
[...]
Perhaps TPE should send the evening's bill to Rafa at St James' Park.

Let's not. Rafa is quite a regular on our services and besides, It's the visiting hoards that stir the trouble I often find, especially from a certain north western city based red wearing team that was founded in a railway depot that appear to have the worst offenders

And on the day in question (31 March 2018) Newcastle Utd were playing at home. It's the visitors, Huddersfield Utd, who were more likely to be using TPE services on a Saturday evening. Send them the bill, not Rafa!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

As expected.

Every electrification project that has not got shovels in the ground will be cancelled.

TPE electrification DID have shovels in the ground tho, just as the A1 did, didn't stop that from being cancelled only to then be reinstated once the planning permission, contracts and TWOs had expired!

Bridges had been ground cleared, power supply to national grid connected etc, however the engineers are still working on Bolton having also been delayed on Blackpool works so this has massively contributed to the "pausing" (they were supposed to complete the north west triangle then head to stalybridge and guide bridge before then continuing across the hills to Colton Junction on the ECML then on to Selby where Hull Trains was picking up the tab for the fill in to Hull)

 

[Chester1]

What's different is that we are getting close to the date at which detailed proposals for TP are likely to be announced. The GRIP 3 report (allegedly with several options) went to DfT in December and an announcement is likely before Parliament breaks up on 24 July. Any long sections of the route that don't get electrification authorised this month are likely to remain unelectrified for at least 20 years.

Agreeing to the GRIP plans in principle and signing off funding for all parts are two different things. I expect the government to green light the plans but be as non commital as possible of the timing of Stalybridge-Leeds works, while signing off funding to do Victoria-Stalybridge followed by Leeds-York/Selby, once Manchester-Preston has finished. That keeps the ball rolling while not actually binding the government.

Much as I'm a fan of transpennine electrification, politically if it's a case of either that or the platforms 15/16 project I think Piccadilly is by far the more important scheme in the short to medium term for overall network performance. At least bi-modes will allow more wiring to be added in the future to reduce diesel running distance once costs are under better control. I would however strongly advocate partial extension of wires beyond Victoria going east to (say) Rochdale and Stalybridge so Northern emus on stopping services from the west can all have somewhere to go across Manchester under the wires without having to turn back at Victoria. That would also reduce diesel mileage for the bi-modes.

The plan has been to terminate DMUs at Rochdale and EMUs at Stalybridge, it is not neccessary to wire both to increase capacity at Victoria. I disagree about Piccadilly, there needs to be grade seperation at Ordsall Lane Junction first to take Bolton-Piccadilly and Liverpool-Victoria services under or over each other (there is no space at Castlefield Junction or at either end of the Ordsall Chord for grade seperation). If Piccadilly platforms 15 and 16 are built they will be pushed to their maximum capacity and it will just move the bottlenecks elsewhere.

That's a bold statement - on what basis have you decided that?? A change of government may bring a change of priorities…...

I am not of the opinion that there will be a general election anytime soon but its reasonable to think there will be 1-3 changes in government in the next 20 years!

 

[Sceptre]

Much as I'm a fan of transpennine electrification, politically if it's a case of either that or the platforms 15/16 project I think Piccadilly is by far the more important scheme in the short to medium term for overall network performance.

Is this the Platform 15/16 project that was essential to the Ordsall Chord working at full capacity from this December but has been waiting for the best part of two years for Chris Grayling to sign the TWO?

 

[snowball]

Agreeing to the GRIP plans in principle and signing off funding for all parts are two different things. I expect the government to green light the plans but be as non commital as possible of the timing of Stalybridge-Leeds works, while signing off funding to do Victoria-Stalybridge followed by Leeds-York/Selby, once Manchester-Preston has finished. That keeps the ball rolling while not actually binding the government.

But as far as we know the £1 billion (edit, I meant £3 billion, see #1141) TP upgrade is going ahead very soon, with either complete or incomplete or little or no electrification. There has been talk upthread of possession or blockade dates in 2019 having been set already. Once that scheme is finished it may well stay finished and attention turn elsewhere. I don't think the government has any wish to add Stalybridge-Leeds electrification later.

 

[Class 170101]

I would be concerned that Grayling will slip a cancellation out on the last day of Parliament before the summer recess as he did for MML and Windermere last summer.

 

[snowball]

I would be concerned that Grayling will slip a cancellation out on the last day of Parliament before the summer recess as he did for MML and Windermere last summer.

I was wondering that too, but the Transport Committee in its recent report told him off for it, so he would be very brazen to repeat it.

 

[Class 170101]

I was wondering that too, but the Transport Committee in its recent report told him off for it, so he would be very brazen to repeat it.

I still wouldn't put it past him. He seems to give short shrift to the committee when he is there.

 

[Sceptre]

I was wondering that too, but the Transport Committee in its recent report told him off for it, so he would be very brazen to repeat it.

We are talking about a man who, as Transport Minister, carelessly opened his ministerial car door and sent a cyclist in a cycle lane flying. And then a month later, defended in Parliament comments he made just days before sending said cyclist flying implying that cyclists weren't proper road users.

So, it sounds exactly like Grayling.

 

[Chester1]

But as far as we know the £1 billion TP upgrade is going ahead very soon, with either complete or incomplete or little or no electrification. There has been talk upthread of possession or blockade dates in 2019 having been set already. Once that scheme is finished it may well stay finished and attention turn elsewhere. I don't think the government has any wish to add Stalybridge-Leeds electrification later.

The upgrade and electrification work do not need to be done at the same time. The government may not wish to do electrification at a later date but it is politically easier to do that compared with cancelling electrification outright. Doing Victoria-Stalybridge and / or Leeds-York/Selby alonside the route upgrade can be sold as the start of transpennine electrification and make the decision about Stalybridge-Leeds someone elses problem. Grayling is not likely to take a bullet over transpennine electrification cancellation if he can kick the can down the road, claim electrification is being done in phases and let someone else make the real decision at a later point. Victoria to Stalybridge would be a useful start due to Manchester's political influence and because it would ease Northern's DMU shortage.